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What about it? You acknowledge it's a parable. I don't think you intend to throw away the entire Bible, to make a parable fit a belief. Do you?
Calling your scriptures the "entire bible" is a bit much. What about the scriptures that talk of the thief on the cross when Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that same day? Or what about when Paul said that to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
 
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CoreyD

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Calling your scriptures the "entire bible" is a bit much. What about the scriptures that talk of the thief on the cross when Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that same day? Or what about when Paul said that to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord?
What about the scriptures in the post? Do you disagree that they clearly tell us where the dead are, and what condition the dead are in?
Tell me which ones don't agree with the answer to the question.
 
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What about it? You acknowledge it's a parable. I don't think you intend to throw away the entire Bible, to make a parable fit a belief. Do you?
Parables are stories told by Jesus to illustrate a truth.

Why would a parable contain any falsehood?
 
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CoreyD

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Parables are stories told by Jesus to illustrate a truth.

Why would a parable contain any falsehood?
Okay, so since you cannot find a single scripture in the post that disagrees with the answer
The Bible says
  • the dead are in the grave, and death is likened to sleep, from which the dead can be awakened - resurrected, if remembered by God.
  • the dead are in a state of inactivity, unconscious, and therefore cannot do anything at all.
Your argument is not with me. Your argument, or fight is with the word of God, and since Jesus said, it is the word that will judge a person, I wouldn't want to take an approach like this.
stubborn.png

How you choose to resolve that problem though, is up to you. However, I do hope you get it worked out.
 
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Okay, so since you cannot find a single scripture in the post that disagrees with the answer
The Bible says
  • the dead are in the grave, and death is likened to sleep, from which the dead can be awakened - resurrected, if remembered by God.
  • the dead are in a state of inactivity, unconscious, and therefore cannot do anything at all.
Your argument is not with me. Your argument, or fight is with the word of God, and since Jesus said, it is the word that will judge a person, I wouldn't want to take an approach like this.
View attachment 338079
How you choose to resolve that problem though, is up to you. However, I do hope you get it worked out.
When Jesus descended to the dead He preached to the spirits there. They were not in soul sleep.
 
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CoreyD

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When Jesus descended to the dead He preached to the spirits there. They were not in soul sleep.
You don't believe Jesus died?
If you do, then please go back to post 17.

There, you will find the Bible's answer as to where the dead go, and what state they are in.
Since Jesus died, Jesus was _____________________________________________________________________?
Fill in the blank.

If what you fill that blank space with, contradicts the scriptures that clearly state where the dead go, and what state they are in, you have a problem.
If you disagree with those scriptures, then you will believe whatever you want, and think that Jesus was alive talking to spirits when he was dead.

Thus, as I mentioned before, your fight is with the word of God, and there is only one outcome for those who insist on believing whatever they want, instead of accepting what the scriptures say.

Looking for scriptures to see how you can get them to fit your views which contradict those scriptures will never alter those texts to support your beliefs.
You would not want to go to the extreme of twisting the scriptures either, since, as Peter said, this leads to destruction. 3 Peter 3:16

So, why not accept the scriptures, and adjust your understanding.
Perhaps make a start with this scripture 1 Peter 3:18, 19. Just put away those currently held ideas, and let God's word speak to you.

********************************************************
Question : Did Jesus preach to Spirits of the dead?

1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

Read the text in little baby steps.
  • Christ was put to death in the flesh. Okay. That's easy.
  • but made alive in the spirit. Should be easy, but because of preconceived ideas, some totally distort this scripture.
So, let's break it in to pieces, using scripture, of course.
  • For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22
  • Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 1 Corinthians 15:36
  • He being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 1 Peter 3:18
It's clear then. Christ was made alive - resurrected - as an immortal spirit being. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 53, 54
Okay?
  • in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison. Again, because of preconceived ideas, some interpret this according to their views.
What does the Bible tell us?
First, the Bible does not tell us that there are spirits of the dead, somewhere underground.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 reads :
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit (ruach - רוּחַ) will return to God who gave it.

Job 27:3 reads :
as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit (ruach - רוּחַ) of God is in my nostrils

Job 34:14, 15 reads :
...If He should gather to Himself His Spirit (ruach - רוּחַ) and His breath,
All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Psalm 104:29, 30
You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath (ruach - רוּחַ), they die and return to their dust.
You send forth Your Spirit (ruach - רוּחַ), they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.

The scriptures let us know that the spirit God put in man, is that which keeps him alive. It is not a living thing with a body, but rather, like the wind - breath. The scriptures do not say the spirit is in Sheol/Hades.
However, if you believe, the spirit returns to God, as the Bible says, then I really would like to know where you think this idea of spirits of the dead being underground comes from.

So what imprisoned spirits did Jesus preach to?
2 Peter 2:4​
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into the lowest hell and imprisoned them in chains of deepest darkness, holding them for judgment;​
Jude 1:6​
And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.​

The Bible's answer :
Jesus, in his resurrected immortal body, preach to the spirit beings - angels - whom God imprisoned for their rebelliousness, during the days of Noah.
 
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Jesus, in his resurrected immortal body, preach to the spirit beings - angels - whom God imprisoned for their rebelliousness, during the days of Noah
Which refutes the soul sleep idea that the imprisoned spirits were not conscious and in a state of suspended animation as you claim.
 
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lanceleo

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The Bible's answer :
Jesus, in his resurrected immortal body, preach to the spirit beings - angels - whom God imprisoned for their rebelliousness, during the days of Noah.
The word preach here must not be mistaken as preaching the gospel and bringing hope to the spirit beings being held until the day of judgement and condemnation but rather a proclamation that Christ has overcome death and the evil ones.
 
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CoreyD

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Which refutes the soul sleep idea that the imprisoned spirits were not conscious and in a state of suspended animation as you claim.
Pardon me? What is it that I claimed - that imprisoned spirits were not conscious and in a state of suspended animation?
Where did you read that?
Also, how does Jesus, in his resurrected immortal body, preaching to imprisoned angels refute the scriptures - including what Jesus himself said - “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”?

John 11:11-14
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”
13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
Acts 7:60
Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
 
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CoreyD

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The word preach here must not be mistaken as preaching the gospel and bringing hope to the spirit beings being held until the day of judgement and condemnation but rather a proclamation that Christ has overcome death and the evil ones.
@lanceleo welcome.
I really do appreciate anyone who would like to participate in this thread. Unfortunately, for some, I chose a sub-forum that isn't conducive to what we humans like to do - talk, and share our ideas, views, opinions.
I totally understand that. I've seen people spend nearly a whole day arguing back and forth on one single topic.

I chose this sub-forum to avoid that.
Perhaps I should have given everyone a heads up, that this is the Bible Verses sub-forum.

If persons just make a comment, how would persons know that they are not just stating what they believe, if there is no scripture for them to look at, to see if the Bible really says, for example, Jesus was making the "proclamation that Christ has overcome death and the evil ones."

I'm sure if we did a survey on how many people can read Jesus' mind, or tell us what Jesus said that is not actually written, our face would probably freeze like this o_O, as we listen to them.
A little humor there, but you understand what I am saying.

I think Paul's words are appropriate here. “Do not go beyond what is written.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
What Jesus proclaimed to those disobedient angels, is not written, and anyone's guess is a good as the other. Or, completely wrong.
I'd be happy if the thread can keep in line with the sub-forum. Bible Verses

Glad to hear from you, though. :)
 
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Pardon me? What is it that I claimed - that imprisoned spirits were not conscious and in a state of suspended animation?
Where did you read that?
Also, how does Jesus, in his resurrected immortal body, preaching to imprisoned angels refute the scriptures - including what Jesus himself said - “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.
They weren't all angels. They were the souls of men and women pre-flood. It's talking about Hades.
 
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Why would Jesus preach to irredeemable angels? Christ didn't die for angels. Jesus was preaching to the souls of those who died prior to His coming and ressurection. Why would Jesus preach to those who cannot come to salvation?
What Jesus proclaimed to those disobedient angels, is not written, and anyone's guess is a good as the other. Or, completely wrong.
I'd be happy if the thread can keep in line with the sub-forum. Bible Verses
 
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CoreyD

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They weren't all angels. They were the souls of men and women pre-flood. It's talking about Hades.
Why would Jesus preach to irredeemable angels? Christ didn't die for angels. Jesus was preaching to the souls of those who died prior to His coming and ressurection. Why would Jesus preach to those who cannot come to salvation?
Not according to scripture. No.
Question : Where are the dead, and in what condition, or state are they?

Where?
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.​

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and come out...​
Ecclesiastes 3:​
19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.​
20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.
Remember that you have made me like clay and you return me to the dust

“Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!​

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.
What condition, or state?
Ecclesiastes 9:​
4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.​
5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.​
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.​

The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.
Psalm 146:​
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.​
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.​

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”​
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”​
13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.​
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.​

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.​

Answer :
The Bible says
  • the dead are in the grave, and death is likened to sleep, from which the dead can be awakened - resurrected, if remembered by God.
  • the dead are in a state of inactivity, unconscious, and therefore cannot do anything at all.
 
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Not according to scripture. No.
Question : Where are the dead, and in what condition, or state are they?
Where?
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.​

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and come out...​
Ecclesiastes 3:​
19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.​
20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.
Remember that you have made me like clay and you return me to the dust

“Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!​

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.
What condition, or state?
Ecclesiastes 9:​
4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.​
5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.​
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.​
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.​

The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.
Psalm 146:​
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.​
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.​

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”​
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”​
13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.​
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.​

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.​

Answer :
The Bible says
  • the dead are in the grave, and death is likened to sleep, from which the dead can be awakened - resurrected, if remembered by God.
  • the dead are in a state of inactivity, unconscious, and therefore cannot do anything at all.
Just answer this one question and I'll leave this thread.

Why would Jesus go and preach the gospel to imprisoned spirits if the spirits are all angels to whom the gospel will not save, since the gospel is only for humans? Why would Jesus do something so redundant?

A direct answer will suffice.
 
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CoreyD

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Just answer this one question and I'll leave this thread.

Why would Jesus go and preach the gospel to imprisoned spirits if the spirits are all angels to whom the gospel will not save, since the gospel is only for humans? Why would Jesus do something so redundant?

A direct answer will suffice.
Okay, just show me where in the Bible did you read that Jesus preached the gospel to the spirits, and if you are able to show me, then I can answer your question.
Can you in turn answer my question. Why do people refuse to answer questions posed to them, and then insist that their questions be answered?

I can answer both.
  1. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus preached the good news to the imprisoned spirits
  2. Jesus gave us the answer to the second question here - Matthew 21:23-27.
23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”​
24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John - where was it from? From heaven or from men?”​
And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.”​
27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”​
And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.​

However, I still would like to hear from you. Why ask persons to answer your question when you repeatedly refuse to answer theirs?
Also, for future reference - do you think it's a good idea to follow Jesus example above?
 
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Okay, just show me where in the Bible did you read that Jesus preached the gospel to the spirits, and if you are able to show me, then I can answer your question.
Can you in turn answer my question. Why do people refuse to answer questions posed to them, and then insist that their questions be answered?

I can answer both.
  1. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus preached the good news to the imprisoned spirits
  2. Jesus gave us the answer to the second question here - Matthew 21:23-27.
23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”​
24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John - where was it from? From heaven or from men?”​
And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.”​
27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”​
And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.​

However, I still would like to hear from you. Why ask persons to answer your question when you repeatedly refuse to answer theirs?
Also, for future reference - do you think it's a good idea to follow Jesus example above?
1 Peter 3:19-20 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

My question: What did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison, if not the gospel? What message would Jesus preach to fallen angels?

I would appreciate more direct answers to my questions by the way.
 
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@CoreyD I'll explain further

1 Peter 3:20 is talking about the spirits of human beings and nephilim who existed before Christ's incarnation, before the gospel message, who died in the flood. It follows according to the previous verse that Jesus must have preached the gospel to these spirits because what other message would He have given to them? Jesus' entire life revolved around preaching the gospel, but you seem to think He had another message for them other than the gospel. Why wouldn't He preach gospel to them, according to Peter?

The bottom line, the spirits in this prison were human beings who were awake and animated enough to receive the preaching of Christ. They were not in a state of soul sleep.
 
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CoreyD

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1 Peter 3:19-20 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

My question: What did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison, if not the gospel?
friend of said:
Just answer this one question and I'll leave this thread.
Why would Jesus go and preach the gospel to imprisoned spirits if the spirits are all angels to whom the gospel will not save, since the gospel is only for humans? Why would Jesus do something so redundant?
A direct answer will suffice.​

Please forgive me for not being able to read invisible or imagined text.
You have another question then.

What message would Jesus preach to fallen angels?

I would appreciate more direct answers to my questions by the way.
If you want to know what Jesus could possibly preach to angels that rebelled, please read Isaiah 61:2, and see if that helps.
Although the Bible is silent on what Jesus preached to those spirits, it does tell us that Jesus had a judgment message to preach.

@CoreyD I'll explain further

1 Peter 3:20 is talking about the spirits of human beings and nephilim who existed before Christ's incarnation, before the gospel message, who died in the flood. It follows according to the previous verse that Jesus must have preached the gospel to these spirits because what other message would He have given to them? Jesus' entire life revolved around preaching the gospel, but you seem to think He had another message for them other than the gospel. Why wouldn't He preach gospel to them, according to Peter?

The bottom line, the spirits in this prison were human beings who were awake and animated enough to receive the preaching of Christ. They were not in a state of soul sleep.
Do you realize what you are doing?
You are ignoring what the Bible tells you, including Jesus himself, to rely on your "must-be-so-because-I-think-so" logical reasoning.

However, I like fairness, and I go as far as possible to be fair, so here is another fair chance you have.
Please answer my question, and I would appreciate a direct answer. Thank you.

In the following scriptures, do you disagree that they clearly tell us where the dead are, and what condition the dead are in?
Please tell us which ones do not agree with the answer to the question.

Question : Where are the dead, and in what condition, or state are they?

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.​
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and come out...​
Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20​
19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.​
20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.
Remember that you have made me like clay and you return me to the dust
“Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!​
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 10​
4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.​
5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.​
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.​
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.​
The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.
Psalm 146:3,4​
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.​
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​
For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.​
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”​
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”​
13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.​
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.​
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.​

Answer :
The Bible says
  • the dead are in the grave, and death is likened to sleep, from which the dead can be awakened - resurrected, if remembered by God.
  • the dead are in a state of inactivity, unconscious, and therefore cannot do anything at all.

Let's see if you are fair, and a man of your word.
 
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