Bible divides literally..instead of unites

[Barrenlimb]

Anyone else find it weird how the one thing Christians have to unite is the one thing that they are so divided over.

Pastors and teachers with the gifting of interpretation of scripture sit here and read the same passages and all have different views on it that essentially divides the body of christ. The foundations of one church are so different from the foundations of the next, though, the church should have the same foundations found in Christ.

Catholics say that it is only their leaders who can understand scripture, though they are just people/fallible like the rest of us.

If the bible is a two edged sword, than it is so true -one to cut the enemy and one to cut the saints.

 

[Asinner]

Anyone else find it weird how the one thing Christians have to unite is the one thing that they are so divided over.

Pastors and teachers with the gifting of interpretation of scripture sit here and read the same passages and all have different views on it that essentially divides the body of christ. The foundations of one church are so different from the foundations of the next, though, the church should have the same foundations found in Christ.

Catholics say that it is only their leaders who can understand scripture, though they are just people/fallible like the rest of us.

If the bible is a two edged sword, than it is so true -one to cut the enemy and one to cut the saints.

That is because the bible is not our foundation. Our foundation is Christ, upon which His Church was built.

God Bless

 

[Barrenlimb]

That is because the bible is not our foundation. Our foundation is Christ, upon which His Church was built.

God Bless

Do you believe the bible to be the infallible word of God? It would seem the only reason we know anything about Christ and what he stands for is because of the bible. If we say it is fallible, we then question Christ. If infallible, it seems to divide his body.

 

[Asinner]

Do you believe the bible to be the infallible word of God? It would seem the only reason we know anything about Christ and what he stands for is because of the bible. If we say it is fallible, we then question Christ. If infallible, it seems to divide his body.

The entirety of God's Word is infallible, for it is Truth. The Word of God transcends that which is written. Christ left His teachings to the Apostles. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

God Bless

 

[Barrenlimb]

That is because the bible is not our foundation. Our foundation is Christ, upon which His Church was built.

God Bless

But how can you reconcile that the bible isn't our foundation, when without it, we wouldn't know anything of Christ?

 

[Asinner]

But how can you reconcile that the bible isn't our foundation, when without it, we wouldn't know anything of Christ?

Which came first, the bible or the Church?

God Bless

 

[Barrenlimb]

Which came first, the bible or the Church?

God Bless

The church came first, though only a few knew Christ and without their preservation of his teachings and life, we would today be a mess.

have to go for awhile, will continue dialogue, when I return

 

[Asinner]

The church came first, though only a few knew Christ and without their preservation of his teachings and life, we would today be a mess.

Protestantism is a mess with it's multiplicity of doctrines and beliefs.

True unity is a manifestation of ONE Spirit. Where there is unity, there will be the ONE Spirit, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism.

There weren't just a few who preserved the teachings of Christ. There were many, those who made up His Body.

God Bless

 

[Borealis]

Anyone else find it weird how the one thing Christians have to unite is the one thing that they are so divided over.

Pastors and teachers with the gifting of interpretation of scripture sit here and read the same passages and all have different views on it that essentially divides the body of christ. The foundations of one church are so different from the foundations of the next, though, the church should have the same foundations found in Christ.

Catholics say that it is only their leaders who can understand scripture, though they are just people/fallible like the rest of us.

Catholics say that it is only the Magisterium of the Church that has the proper understanding of Scripture because only the Magisterium has the guidance of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. It is also that same Magisterium that determined what was and was not inspired Scripture in the 4th century. Pastors and teachers don't have the gift of interpretation of Scripture; only the Church has it. Yes, the Magisterium is made up of fallible men. But there is one member of that Magisterium that does not suffer from such fallibility.

No, I'm not referring to the Pope. Nice try, though. The Magisterium includes Jesus Himself, who is and always will be the Head of the Church. And Jesus won't allow the truth to be diminished or false teachings to be spread in His Church.

 

[Barrenlimb]

Protestantism is a mess with it's multiplicity of doctrines and beliefs.

True unity is a manifestation of ONE Spirit. Where there is unity, there will be the ONE Spirit, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism.

There weren't just a few who preserved the teachings of Christ. There were many, those who made up His Body.

God Bless

The problem isn't just protestantism though, it is a universal problem. I can see how catholics would say it is just the protestants, but Catholics have said that they can personally interpertate scripture and so they take what the hierarchy tells them or doesn't tell them as truth...The whole time the hierarchy is still the same mankind inflicted with original sin. In one time in history, I could find a group of people that would all say that the earth is flat and have "proof" for it, they could discuss it, have meetings about it, take a vote and establish it as truth. It doesn't make it true, especially to the person that has sailed around the world.

Same principle of illustration I just used can be applied to denominations within protestantism. It is a disease inflicting the whole body of Christ. Protestantism and Catholics alike.

Scripture being preserved started with those around Jesus and then were passed verbally or written to preserve the writings. It started with few though. Throughout the years, gained ground on preserving it, and then through many councils, it was decided which books to keep and which books to not keep. Again, a human process. The same people that placed Mary as diety were the same that chose which books stayed and which went.

 

[Barrenlimb]

Catholics say that it is only the Magisterium of the Church that has the proper understanding of Scripture because only the Magisterium has the guidance of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. It is also that same Magisterium that determined what was and was not inspired Scripture in the 4th century. Pastors and teachers don't have the gift of interpretation of Scripture; only the Church has it. Yes, the Magisterium is made up of fallible men. But there is one member of that Magisterium that does not suffer from such fallibility.

No, I'm not referring to the Pope. Nice try, though. The Magisterium includes Jesus Himself, who is and always will be the Head of the Church. And Jesus won't allow the truth to be diminished or false teachings to be spread in His Church.

The "Church" refers to all who follow christ, not a select group of individuals within a catholic assembly. So that would say that anybody who follows Christ...the saved...would be able to be led into truth by the holy spirit. Jesus is always the head, but it is all of the redeemed who make up the body.

 

[Nickolai]

The "Church" refers to all who follow christ, not a select group of individuals within a catholic assembly. So that would say that anybody who follows Christ...the saved...would be able to be led into truth by the holy spirit. Jesus is always the head, but it is all of the redeemed who make up the body.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Not everyone who calls themselves a christian, or someone who follows what they think to be Christ, acctually is one. We are enlightened by the Holy Spirit when we are innitiated into the Church through baptism and chrismation. It doesn't happen (in most cases) before that. This is the way it happened in the Apostles time, and this is the way it works in the Orthodox Church now.

From my perspective, the only Church I recognise as fully correct or care about is the Orthodox Church, we are not divided on interpretation or dogma. All of those who are outside of the Orthodox communion are just trying to make their own church without having a fully built foundation of 2,000 years of Apostolic Tradition (all of tradition, not just the written).

Reader Nikolai

 

[Barrenlimb]

The Church is the Body of Christ. Not everyone who calls themselves a christian, or someone who follows what they think to be Christ, acctually is one. We are enlightened by the Holy Spirit when we are innitiated into the Church through baptism and chrismation. It doesn't happen (in most cases) before that. This is the way it happened in the Apostles time, and this is the way it works in the Orthodox Church now.

From my perspective, the only Church I recognise as fully correct or care about is the Orthodox Church, we are not divided on interpretation or dogma. All of those who are outside of the Orthodox communion are just trying to make their own church without having a fully built foundation of 2,000 years of Apostolic Tradition (all of tradition, not just the written).

Reader Nikolai

Nikolai,
The problem lies in the fact that everyone thinks they are right. You think Ortho is the way to go, while another catholocism, and another a denomination of protestant. It seems to me that everyone wants to be right. If I believe in Jesus and call upon his name, I will be saved right? So If I am Catholic, Protestant, Ortho or have no adaptation to religious history...say for instance, I am in the middle of Africa in a tribe that has no communication to the outside world. I receive a revelation of Christ and believe that it is by him that I would be saved, I would have no access to a bible, vulgate, or any other religious organization, so am I less of a "christian" or less of the "body" than that of somebody that is applied itself to believe whatever a man behind a pulpit or with a nice hat and big stick say?

 

[Asinner]

Nikolai,
The problem lies in the fact that everyone thinks they are right. You think Ortho is the way to go, while another catholocism, and another a denomination of protestant. It seems to me that everyone wants to be right.

The Orthodox Church has Grace and Virtue. It is perfect. No where on earth will you find such fullness.



God Bless

 

[Nickolai]

Nikolai,
The problem lies in the fact that everyone thinks they are right.

No, I don't think I am right. I think that the Church established by the Apostles is right. Huge difference.

You think Ortho is the way to go, while another catholocism, and another a denomination of protestant. It seems to me that everyone wants to be right.

You don't want to be sure that what you believe is correct? Why believe something that you don't know for certain is correct? Especially something as important as the revalation of God to His creation.

If I believe in Jesus and call upon his name, I will be saved right?

Only God knows what will happen to everyone. There are plenty of people who can voice many things with their lips, that doesn't mean they will have salvation in the end.

So If I am Catholic, Protestant, Ortho or have no adaptation to religious history...say for instance, I am in the middle of Africa in a tribe that has no communication to the outside world. I receive a revelation of Christ and believe that it is by him that I would be saved, I would have no access to a bible, vulgate, or any other religious organization, so am I less of a "christian" or less of the "body" than that of somebody that is applied itself to believe whatever a man behind a pulpit or with a nice hat and big stick say?

In the end we are judged by the amount of the revalation given to us. If an african tribesman knows nothing of the revelation of God other that seeing the beauty of God's creation in nature then he has at least seen God's energies at work. He will be judged based on the criteria that God sets.

We are all judged on this standard. I (as well as the other Orthodox members of CF) believe our Church to be the place where the fullness of Divine revalation was revealed, and it is our desire to have everyone experience that fullness.

Look at this our way. Imagine some sort of organization that was established with a set of rules for being a member (some were written in a rulebook even), then goes on for several hundred years accepting members following this criteria. If another group of people got a copy of their rulebook and decided that just by following that rulebook they could claim to be members of said group, wouldn't this be a bit presumptuous? And if this second group went so far as to say that the first group wasn't even following their own rules correctly wouldn't that just be silly?

This is where the Orthodox come from, we are that original group, we created the rulebook, and we are the ones told we don't follow it correctly. Wouldn't you try your very hardest to defend it too?

Reader Nikolai

 

[Borealis]

The same people that placed Mary as diety were the same that chose which books stayed and which went.

Nobody placed Mary as a deity, and I suggest you find the person who told you that we did and slap them upside the head with a frozen trout for being an ignorant anti-Catholic and for lying to you.

 

[Borealis]

The "Church" refers to all who follow christ, not a select group of individuals within a catholic assembly. So that would say that anybody who follows Christ...the saved...would be able to be led into truth by the holy spirit. Jesus is always the head, but it is all of the redeemed who make up the body.

Yes, it does refer to all who follow Christ...and ALL His commands. There's only one organization that does so, and it's not Protestant.

 

[Borealis]

Nikolai,
The problem lies in the fact that everyone thinks they are right.

I certainly don't. I'm not stupid enough to think I'm smart enough to understand and interpret the Bible. That's why Jesus instituted the Church and gave it the authority to teach. Jesus guides and protects the Magisterium from error; obviously He doesn't do so for everyone, because there are thousands of errors springing from personal interpretation.

It seems to me that everyone wants to be right.

I'd rather be following Jesus even if it means I'm wrong in my personal interpretation.

If I believe in Jesus and call upon his name, I will be saved right? So If I am Catholic, Protestant, Ortho or have no adaptation to religious history...say for instance, I am in the middle of Africa in a tribe that has no communication to the outside world. I receive a revelation of Christ and believe that it is by him that I would be saved, I would have no access to a bible, vulgate, or any other religious organization, so am I less of a "christian" or less of the "body" than that of somebody that is applied itself to believe whatever a man behind a pulpit or with a nice hat and big stick say?

[BIBLE]Matthew 7:21-23[/BIBLE]
Fairly significant statement, don't you think?

 

[Nickolai]

Yes, it does refer to all who follow Christ...and ALL His commands. There's only one organization that does so, and it's not Protestant.

It's not Roman Catholic either.

 

[Barrenlimb]

Ok, to be more broad than before and I love how people prove my point.

Protestants look at the same bible that Catholics, Orthodox, ect... look at. That bible had the first disciples...the first apostles...ect... It had their teachings, their influences (somewhat), you could decipher the environment to some extent they lived in.

What was it, 300 years after christ before these oral and written accounts were brought to some order right? Yes, the catholics preserved the books and as catholics like to point out, if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't have a bible as if to say, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have a Christ.

Anyway, it seems that Catholics feel as though they are the elect group of people, no wait, it is orthodox as the way to go. no wait, it is 1 of the 900 churches in my 30 mile radius that is the way to go. It seems to me that we are all privy to the same information...that is the old and new testament.

To say that only the pope and/or hierarchy can interpret the word from the head (Jesus) through the bible, is to discount the mercy of God to all mankind, jew and gentile alike. To not only be impractical, but to be completely irrelevant to peoples day to day life. When somebody is going through a hard time and reads psalm 23 and it is relevant to their life and they can learn and be comforted by it and interpret its meaning as it applies to them is real. They don't need to make sure that the Hierarchy approves it. maybe I'm missing something here.