Bible-Creation-Evolution (2)

[AV1611VET]

Because their ability to define reality is what empowers them.

Some use Boolean logic to keep that power in check; others jettison those standards to allow their interpretations of the universe to go unchecked.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Some use Boolean logic to keep that power in check; others jettison those standards to allow their interpretations of the universe to go unchecked.

A small but insignificant few use "Boolean Logic" as a flimsy rationalization to give themselves the illusion of authority or importance.

A pity they're such a transparent failure at it.

 

[Awesome_Frog]

OK, where did the evolving start?

With the first basic cellular organisms. Due to their asexual reproduction bacteria did most of their ( and still do most of their changes) through gene transfer.

Mutations are slower in bacteria , archea, and fungi due to their asexual reproduction. With gene transfer ( where a cell engulfs another cell bacteria wise) the cell would gain newer information and when it goes through fission, the newer 2 cells would be different from the host and the genome will have changed.

This would be the basics of early life modification until Colonies started forming and cell would be specialized.


Darwin's theory's Descent with Modification, and the various forms of natural selections are easier to observe in multicellular plants, animals, and fungi.

Though we do still see oscillating selection and directional selection in both archea and bacteria.

 

[dad]

With the first basic cellular organisms. Due to their asexual reproduction bacteria did most of their ( and still do most of their changes) through gene transfer.

You think you know this....how?

Mutations are slower in bacteria , archea, and fungi due to their asexual reproduction.

So?

With gene transfer ( where a cell engulfs another cell bacteria wise) the cell would gain newer information and when it goes through fission, the newer 2 cells would be different from the host and the genome will have changed.

So now you add a claim that there was fission near creation time?? Proof?

This would be the basics of early life modification until Colonies started forming and cell would be specialized.

Would be inside the fantasy...OK.

Darwin's theory's Descent with Modification, and the various forms of natural selections are easier to observe in multicellular plants, animals, and fungi.

So in what way does that mean man started out as a fungi? Just because things work a certain way for one celled life does not mean we all came from it. That should be obvious.

Though we do still see oscillating selection and directional selection in both archea and bacteria.

So? What we must imagine that no other life existed but those, and they did their magic act?

 

[Promethean]

You think you know this....how?

Science.

So?

The implications are self evident to all intelligent people.

So now you add a claim that there was fission near creation time?? Proof?

The caims was never made. Nice attempt at deception.

Would be inside the fantasy...OK.

Are we now talking about creationist delusions?

So in what way does that mean man started out as a fungi?

Learn to read. That was not the claim. Why are creationists so fond of straw men?

Just because things work a certain way for one celled life does not mean we all came from it.

The evidence supports this assertion.

What we must imagine that no other life existed but those, and they did their magic act?

Creo non sequitur

 

[dad]

Science.

So how does science tell you that the first life was too small to see?

The caims was never made. Nice attempt at deception.

Yes in your post no less. You claimed fission took place when referring to the so called first simple life forms.

Learn to read. That was not the claim. Why are creationists so fond of straw men?

Well, you do claim it all started out as simple right? If fungi offends your sensibilities, maybe we could talk dung beetle?

The evidence supports this assertion.

No. You assert that notion. It is just a woulda coulda dream.

Creo non sequitur

let's break it down for you then, no men, or lions, or skunks, or wolves, or fish, or birds etc existed at the time your claimed simple celled little first folk did their thing?

 

[Awesome_Frog]

You think you know this....how?

I don't know, I observe and have observed many aspects of evolution through several hours of lab work, research, and hours of lectures and application.

So?

This explains why it took so long for Protists to split off into plants, fungus, and Animals.

So now you add a claim that there was fission near creation time?? Proof?

I believe you misunderstood me. Fission is a byproduct of a cell's life cycle. Its how cells multiply.

Would be inside the fantasy...OK.

Nah, its based off what we have gathered about cellular life.

So in what way does that mean man started out as a fungi?

It dosen't :3. Fungus branched off of Protists after plants around the same time as animalia. Fungus and animal are sister clades. We went in different directions. We are more related to fungus then any plant though.

Just because things work a certain way for one celled life does not mean we all came from it. That should be obvious.

Well, from my studies and observation, it is obvious that Single cellular life behaves differently from multi cellular life, but all multi cellualr life can be traced back to Protists.

So? What we must imagine that no other life existed but those,

If other life existed, we don't have any remnants of it. The oldest fossils we have are of eukaryote bacteria. Unless we find something that predates this, this is the most basic life forms we have to study.

and they did their magic act?

Genetics is complicated, but far from magic. Magic is trying to create an illusion to entertain, while living things tend to just want to eat and multiply.

 

[dad]

I don't know, I observe and have observed many aspects of evolution through several hours of lab work, research, and hours of lectures and application.

And that is NOT in question, since it was right here in this state.

This explains why it took so long for Protists to split off into plants, fungus, and Animals.

Correction, that explains how it coulda happened if there were no God, no creation, and a same state you can't prove existed!!

I believe you misunderstood me. Fission is a byproduct of a cell's life cycle. Its how cells multiply.

No I get it. My point is that we do not know cells multiplied the same way...do we??

Nah, its based off what we have gathered about cellular life.

Then it is useless present state stuff...OK. Thanks for admitting it.

It dosen't :3. Fungus branched off of Protists after plants around the same time as animalia. Fungus and animal are sister clades. We went in different directions. We are more related to fungus then any plant though.

Cute how you talk of "we" when speaking of fungi! The branching was in a dream world, however, and never actually happened. Not that you can prove.

Well, from my studies and observation, it is obvious that Single cellular life behaves differently from multi cellular life, but all multi cellualr life can be traced back to Protists.

That doesn't follow at all. Firstly it does not matter how different kinds behave! Secondly HOW can you trace this back?

If other life existed, we don't have any remnants of it.

Other life lived a long time. Since rapid deposition of layers would be the normal order of the day, nothing is surprising here.

The oldest fossils we have are of eukaryote bacteria. Unless we find something that predates this, this is the most basic life forms we have to study.

Irrelevant. They died first...so?

Genetics is complicated, but far from magic. Magic is trying to create an illusion to entertain, while living things tend to just want to eat and multiply.

Genetics of today cannot be traced to the pond.

 

[Tiberius]

Dad, can you provide any specific evidence to support your position that in the past the universe operated differently?

 

[dad]

Dad, can you provide any specific evidence to support your position that in the past the universe operated differently?

Yes. The bible and history.

 

[Awesome_Frog]

And that is NOT in question, since it was right here in this state.

Can you be more specific please? I'm not sure what exactly you are asking. If you are asking if of knowledge of what we know and have evidence for is in question, then you are correct. Everything is always in question. You are questioning it right now. :3

Correction, that explains how it coulda happened if there were no God, no creation, and a same state you can't prove existed!!

I actually haven't made any statements about a God or Gods, or creation. I'm only discussing what I have learned and what I've witnessed. I think it might also help for you to look at my religion icon up by my name.

No I get it. My point is that we do not know cells multiplied the same way...do we??

We don't have any evidence that point to any other form of cell multiplication at this time.

Then it is useless present state stuff...OK. Thanks for admitting it.

I'm not sure what you think I'm admitting? I'm not really sure why you mean by present state.

Cute how you talk of "we" when speaking of fungi!

Well, I'm pretty sure we is the right pronoun when talking about 2 groups of organisms.

The branching was in a dream world, however, and never actually happened.

The genetic sequencing shows we share more genes with fungus then plants, and early multicelullar animals shared similar functions that early fungus had, animalia just has the ability of budding and sexual multiplication.

Not that you can prove.

I'm not really trying to prove anything, only discussing what I've learned.

That doesn't follow at all. Firstly it does not matter how different kinds behave!

I'm a little confused what you mean by kinds. Can you elaborate?

Secondly HOW can you trace this back?

genetic sequencing with DNA, RNA, and Mitochondrial DNA. Its actually quite fascinating. We where able to figure out the different clades and what is realted to what, and how closely. :3 Phylogeny is actually quite interesting, especially at the single cellular level. Its interesting how multi cellular life is like a tree, but single celled organisms are like a web.

Other life lived a long time. Since rapid deposition of layers would be the normal order of the day, nothing is surprising here.

Well, unless we can find this life and date it to the same time as the bacteria, we don't really have any evidence of it. Its interesting, but we need the fossils to be sure of your claim.

Irrelevant. They died first...so?

Its quite relevant The first things to live and die, tell us so much about life and its history.

Genetics of today cannot be traced to the pond.

Can you explain what you mean by pond? I'm pretty sure ponds are depressions of earth with water run off and not cellular life.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes. The bible and history.

Let's take this over HERE.

 

[dad]

Can you be more specific please? I'm not sure what exactly you are asking. If you are asking if of knowledge of what we know and have evidence for is in question, then you are correct. Everything is always in question. You are questioning it right now. :3
I actually haven't made any statements about a God or Gods, or creation. I'm only discussing what I have learned and what I've witnessed. I think it might also help for you to look at my religion icon up by my name.
We don't have any evidence that point to any other form of cell multiplication at this time.

I think what I was getting at was that experiments in this present state do not reflect how creation was.. or something similar.

I'm not sure what you think I'm admitting? I'm not really sure why you mean by present state.

Look at t this way. Heaven is not this state. Not our laws. neither was the garden!i

Well, I'm pretty sure we is the right pronoun when talking about 2 groups of organisms. The genetic sequencing shows we share more genes with fungus then plants, and early multicelullar animals shared similar functions that early fungus had, animalia just has the ability of budding and sexual multiplication.

We might share a garden with them to, it doesn't mean we are them or were them.

I'm not really trying to prove anything, only discussing what I've learned.
I'm a little confused what you mean by kinds. Can you elaborate?

If we are talking about the original created kinds, then we are talking lions, and wolves and whales, and fish, and man, and etc etc . All evolving started from them! Not from granny bacteria.

genetic sequencing with DNA, RNA, and Mitochondrial DNA. Its actually quite fascinating. We where able to figure out the different clades and what is realted to what, and how closely. :3 Phylogeny is actually quite interesting, especially at the single cellular level. Its interesting how multi cellular life is like a tree, but single celled organisms are like a web.
Well, unless we can find this life and date it to the same time as the bacteria, we don't really have any evidence of it. Its interesting, but we need the fossils to be sure of your claim.

No, you don't. You see in that different state past, apparently man and many of Eden's creatures did not fossilize.

Its quite relevant The first things to live and die, tell us so much about life and its history.

Not really. They tell that small stuff died first.

Can you explain what you mean by pond? I'm pretty sure ponds are depressions of earth with water run off and not cellular life.

I mean Darwin's proverbial pond where life started. later it was improved to a thermal vent, or etc etc...

 

[Awesome_Frog]

I think what I was getting at was that experiments in this present state do not reflect how creation was.. or something similar.

I still don't know what you mean by present state. You are going to have to elaborate on what exactly made this present state different then the state you are referring.

Look at t this way. Heaven is not this state. Not our laws. neither was the garden!i

Can you link me to studies on the states of the Garden and heaven, or possibly tell me how to test these states?

We might share a garden with them to, it doesn't mean we are them or were them.

I think you keep misunderstanding me when I say that We where never fungus. Fungus split off from protista and plants around the same time as the animal kingdom. Animals were never fungus, but shared similar traits. Animals where protists at one time though.

If we are talking about the original created kinds, then we are talking lions, and wolves and whales, and fish, and man, and etc etc . All evolving started from them! Not from granny bacteria.

Nah, Lions and Wolves come from Caniforms and felaforms that came from a single ancestor that we have traced though phylogeny. Whales used to be land dwelling mama's, and humans split from the other ape families thanks to our fused second chromosome. Fish where the first vertebrates, but modern fish have gone through massive changes. None of these modern animals show up in the genetic record until modern times.

No, you don't. You see in that different state past, apparently man and many of Eden's creatures did not fossilize.

Well, until you show me these creatures, I'm not inclined to accept your claim, nor even your claim of a garden.

Not really. They tell that small stuff died first.

Can you show me the big stuff that lived at the same time?

I mean Darwin's proverbial pond where life started. later it was improved to a thermal vent, or etc etc...

Can you source both of these claims please. I have plenty of biology books and project Gutenberg on my bookmark tab to look up these studies. I'm pretty sure Darwin didn't know about single cellular life. Its quite obvious in the origin of species that Darwin didn't' understand Genetics.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Yes. The bible and history.

We said specific, not mythological.

If you read back a bit, you'll see that I was mentioning how parts of the Bible were written in such a way so that anyone with eyes and a brain could see it wasn't meant to be taken as history. Having read that, do you admit that it's possible that your reading it as history may be in error?

 

[dad]

I still don't know what you mean by present state. You are going to have to elaborate on what exactly made this present state different then the state you are referring.

I mean the laws and forces and light and etc that man sees now, right here and now.

Can you link me to studies on the states of the Garden and heaven, or possibly tell me how to test these states?

http://splitmerge.webs.com/split.pdf

I think you keep misunderstanding me when I say that We where never fungus. Fungus split off from protista and plants around the same time as the animal kingdom. Animals were never fungus, but shared similar traits. Animals where protists at one time though.

Fairy tales. No proof at all for that.

Nah, Lions and Wolves come from Caniforms and felaforms that came from a single ancestor that we have traced though phylogeny.

Show us how...

Whales used to be land dwelling mama's,

Proof?

and humans split from the other ape families thanks to our fused second chromosome.

I take it this means you claim that present genetics existed...proof!?

Fish where the first vertebrates,

...Fossilized....

but modern fish have gone through massive changes.

From what..?

None of these modern animals show up in the genetic record until modern times.

Doesn't matter if they did not fossilize in the past state!

Well, until you show me these creatures, I'm not inclined to accept your claim, nor even your claim of a garden.

I am not expected to show creatures from Eden now am I??

Can you show me the big stuff that lived at the same time?

Yes. Man. Lions. Wolves...etc.

Can you source both of these claims please. I have plenty of biology books and project Gutenberg on my bookmark tab to look up these studies. I'm pretty sure Darwin didn't know about single cellular life. Its quite obvious in the origin of species that Darwin didn't' understand Genetics.

"Darwin's warm pond idea is tested"

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Darwin's warm pond idea is tested

 

[Awesome_Frog]

I mean the laws and forces and light and etc that man sees now, right here and now.


http://splitmerge.webs.com/split.pdf

Fairy tales. No proof at all for that.



Show us how...



Proof?

I take it this means you claim that present genetics existed...proof!?



...Fossilized....

From what..?
Doesn't matter if they did not fossilize in the past state!

I am not expected to show creatures from Eden now am I??
Yes. Man. Lions. Wolves...etc.




"Darwin's warm pond idea is tested"

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Darwin's warm pond idea is tested

Dad, I'm done. I only continued this because I was bored and hope to share some information with others. This topic keeps getting shifted, and I can' t seem to get you to produce anything but vauge statements, and when I try to point minor flaws, such as your repeated statements about us being descended from fungus, by just saying fairy tale and waving it away.

Sorry, the evidence we have supports nothing of what you are saying. You can believe it if you want. I also checked out Enjay B Daviavitch, I can't find this person's credentials, so I'm not going to waste my time on an article from someone who probably isn't a trained scientist.

This was fun, but the game is over. You had your chance to show me evidence, and you failed.

Have a good night.

 

[dad]

Dad, I'm done. I only continued this because I was bored and hope to share some information with others. This topic keeps getting shifted, and I can' t seem to get you to produce anything but vauge statements, and when I try to point minor flaws, such as your repeated statements about us being descended from fungus, by just saying fairy tale and waving it away.

Sorry, the evidence we have supports nothing of what you are saying. You can believe it if you want. I also checked out Enjay B Daviavitch, I can't find this person's credentials, so I'm not going to waste my time on an article from someone who probably isn't a trained scientist.

This was fun, but the game is over. You had your chance to show me evidence, and you failed.

Have a good night.

Science is capable of dealing in present state evidence. It is done in the creation debate. Sleep on. Not like you have much of a choice.

 

[Tiberius]

Of course, you have no evidence at all that science does not apply, other than it does not agree with the conclusions you have already made...

 

[dad]

Of course, you have no evidence at all that science does not apply, other than it does not agree with the conclusions you have already made...

The evidence is that it doesn't know if it applied, because they cannot prove it either way.