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Bible-Creation-Evolution (2)

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Nathan Poe

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@Nathan Poe
Do you have any book recommendations with it comes to the study of the bible in the scholarship context?

An easy read is Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.

The title is misleading; the book covers the process of determining how we know what we know should be (or was) in the Bible.

I don't think that covers necessarily what you are asking, but it is good read nonetheless.

I was going to recommend that one myself -- I keep it on the shelf next to me.

I look forward, however, to Nathan's recommendations.

101 Myths of the Bible by Gary Greenberg is good light reading, but not particularly deep.

The Uncensored Bible by John Kaltner has some interesting (although occasionally farfetched) hypotheses about Biblical bawdiness.

Just about anything by John Shelby Spong would work -- I've always liked Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, Jesus for the Non-Religious, and The Sins of Scripture.
 
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1611AV

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In case anyone's interested, I'm ready to discuss the Bethlehem myth according to Luke, now.

Luke's got the same problem Matthew has: Jesus lives in Nazareth, but needs to be born in Bethlehem. Since Luke's not trying to mirror OT heroes like Matthew is, he comes up with a completely different solution.

Luke 2:1-5
[1] And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
[2] (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
[3] And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David)
[5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.


Whoa, Mama -- let's count the historical problems in these five verses alone.
  1. The Romans were pretty meticulous record-keepers, yet no record of any such decree from Agustus exists.
  2. The Roman records on Cyrenius are pretty solid, however -- he became governor of Syria around the end of AD 6. But Jesus was born when Herod was King (Luke 1:5) which couldn't have been after 4 BC. New math?
  3. The world should be taxed? The entire Roman empire, all at once? Romans didn't do it that way -- taxes were collected province by province, for reasons which should be blindingly obvious: trying to do the whole thing at once would've overwhelmed the Roman bureacracy and brought the whole government to a screeching halt.
  4. Judaea became a Roman province around AD 6, Iudaea, but that province did not include Galilee -- if there was such a census or tax, Joseph, a Galilean, was not subject to it. He made the trip for nothing.
  5. Each to their own city? Did Augustus actually expect every single subject and citizen of the empire to drop everything and make the trip for this? never mind the government; the empire itself would fall apart!
  6. Since when does any census or taxation require a person to go back to the place of your birth? The census, especially for purposes of taxation, isn't about where you're from, but about where you are. It's a completely unnecessary literary ploy to get Joseph and his family on the road.
  7. Luke has to return to Bethlehem because he is a descendant of David. Luke 3:23-38 names 41 generations from David to Joseph -- 41! Think of how many heirs and descendants would be produced over 41 generations -- now multiply that number when you consider that David himself had several wives, concubines, and mistresses that we know of through the Bible. How many people with a Davidic claim would be descending on O little town of Bethlehem? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Kind of explains why there was no room at the inn, doesn't it?
  8. Nazareth is about 100 miles or so from Bethlehem --not only is that 100 miles through scorching desert (making daytime travel unsafe and unwise) and pitch-black night (making nighttime travel unsafe and unwise), but to get there, you'd have to travel through Samaria -- making any travel for a Jew unsafe and unwise. Joseph not only made this trek (about 7-10 days on foot or donkey) for no reason (see point 4) but thought it was a good idea to bring his 9-month pregnant wife along! Smooth move, Joseph.
  9. As if points 4 and 8 don't qualify Joseph for the "Bonehead of the Century" award, let's not forget that the Roman census did not include women -- only men. If Joseph had no reason to go to Bethlehem, then Mary had even less reason to go.
So really, the only way any of this can be true is if the entire Roman Empire had gone completely insane, and Joseph was the biggest idiot to ever walk the Earth.

Sorry, I choose not to belive either of those, let alone both.

The answer is, Cyrenius served 2 terms.
 
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Greg1234

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The answer is, Cyrenius served 2 terms.
Mr Nathan Poe's assessment is inaccurate. Herod Antipas was in reign during the birth, not his father (also a Herod). It's not about Cyrenius but regards Herod. Just a little heads up. Carry on :wave:
 
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dad

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I tried confessing all my sins to God... he was speechless.





Ezekiel 23:20 - There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.



God didn't make the bible, Constantine commissioned it.
Constantine was a tool. I am not sure who gave you the idea God was supposed to chat with you when you air your dirty laundry?
 
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dad

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Unmitigated pap, as has been pointed out to you countless times. :wave:

Unless our laws, the laws science piddles around in, are known to have applied to Adam, and Noah's day, we must use evidence such as records. They support me to the hilt, and oppose old agers to the hilt. That should be obvious.
 
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dad

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Quirinius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- as well as just about every other record that exists of the man.

Of course, I don't have to tell you that Cyrenius and Quirinius are the same person, or that the KJV (which I use for my Bible verses) chooses to use the Greek, not the Latin, version of his name.
On the census issue, it seems all we are dealing with is weak records in that time ans place. Possibly even a cover up. Satan would do his darnedest to sweep whatever he could get wicked men to sweep under the rug.


Here is one guy that seems to have little problem with that issue...



" The second person mentioned by Luke for this detective story is one "Cyrenius" who was Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman soldier, senator and consul under Augustus. In 6 CE Quirinius was sent to Syria as legate along with Coponius who would be the first prefect of Judea and a predecessor of Pontius Pilatus. The registration and census of 6 CE is too late to be connected with the birth of Jesus. Additionally, the registration of 6 CE did not include the Galilee. This has long been a stumbling block in the determination of the date of Jesus' birth and many scholars merely assumed that Luke had made a mistake. In 1912,however, the discovery by W. M. Ramsey of a fragmentary inscription at Antioch of Pisidia arguably established Quirinius was in Syria on a previous occasion. (1) His role was more military to lead a campaign against the Homanadenses, a tribe in the Taurus Mountains. This is confirmed by Tacitus. This means that Quirinius would have established a seat of government in Syria, including Palestine, from the years 10 to 7 BCE. In this position he would have been responsible for the census mentioned by Luke. This census of 7 BCE would therefore have been the "first" census taken when Cyrenius was governor (Luke 2:2) and the historically documented census of 6/7 CE was really the second. There is further evidence of this first census of 7 BCE in the writings of Tertullian who records the census "taken in Judea by Sentius Saturninus." (2) C. Sentius Saturninus was Legate of Syria from 9 to 6 BCE. Another inscription, the Lapis Tiburtinus, was found in 1764 near Tivoli (Tibur). Composed after 14 CE, the inscription names an unknown personage who was legate of Syria twice. The man is described as having been victorious in war. There is considerable dissension among scholars as to whether the unnamed person is Quirinius. I think it is more likely that it refers to the famous consul and soldier.

Scholars have debated about the historicity of this first census since there is no record of it in the Roman archives. Their chief argument is that Augustus would not have imposed a census for the purpose of taxation in the kingdom of a client king like Herod. Herod had his own tax collectors and paid tribute to Rome from the proceeds. They further pose that the census in 6 CE was imposed because Herod's nutty son Archelaus had been deposed and Judea was placed under direct Roman rule. These are good arguments.

As a layman, I am forced to go back to Luke and ask why he would record an event that never took place. Luke was well educated with diversified talents. He seems careful in his historicity and, although very young at the time, may very well have met Jesus. He knew and interviewed those who were closest to Jesus. Some scholars think that the story of the first census and the birth in Bethlehem is theologoumenon. This is a term scholars use for that which expresses an event or notion in language what may not be factual but supports, enhances, or is related to a matter of faith. In other words, a "white lie." I don't buy it in this case. There is no advantage to matters of faith in the invention of a census of 6 BCE.

Some scholars argue that the early census was invented to support a mythological birth in Bethlehem in support of Messianic prophecy. We'll cover the Bethlehem issue below. As for the early census, I am inclined to believe Luke and Tertullian (even though Tertullian isn't one of my favorite characters). I can think of a number of reasons based on the history of the time. Lack of records is not evidence for or against an historical event. Records are lost and destroyed, particularly those that are two millennia old. Rome burned in 64 CE and there have been numerous conflagrations and sackings of the city over the centuries. Could Augustus had deviated from convention and imposed a census in Syria/Palestine in 6 B.C.E? Of course he could. He was the Emperor. Herod the Great was ill and, by all accounts of the time, nuttier than a fruitcake. He who had once been an able and effective administrator and builder, was now paranoid and vicious. He had murdered most of his family, including his sons and the wife he loved most. The joke in the Roman court by Caesar himself was that one was safer being Herod's pig than Herod's son. Josephus records in Antiquities of the Jews, XVI, ix 3 that Augustus was furious with Herod in 8 BCE and threatened to treat him no longer as a friend (Client), but as a subject (subject to taxes).

I believe that the prudent and prudish Augustus, scandalized by Herod's outrageous reputation and increasing madness, began the movement toward making Judea a prefecture in 8 BCE and part of that preparation was a registration. "


HISTORY AND THE NEW TESTAMENT
 
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Nathan Poe

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Geez, you guys are way off topic.

Can anyone who disagrees with evolution point out a flaw in evolutionary theory?

1611 was onto that-- he was saying that evolution isn't in the Bible, and the Bible is historically accurate and infallible, ergo evolution is false.

My counterpoint has been that since the Bible is not 100% historical, its infallibility is not a given.
 
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dad

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Geez, you guys are way off topic.

Can anyone who disagrees with evolution point out a flaw in evolutionary theory?
That depends how you define 'evolution'? You talking about slow little present evoving, or also imagined similar evolving for unproven ages, that started from nothing?

It is normal, by the way, for the bible to be looked at in debates where it is involved. Kind of a cross examination of the witness...
 
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rjc34

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Constantine was a tool. I am not sure who gave you the idea God was supposed to chat with you when you air your dirty laundry?

And yet he was the man who gave you the book you today base your entire life off of. So I guess you base your life off the command of a tool. Cool beans.
 
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rjc34

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That depends how you define 'evolution'? You talking about slow little present evoving, or also imagined similar evolving for unproven ages, that started from nothing?

It is normal, by the way, for the bible to be looked at in debates where it is involved. Kind of a cross examination of the witness...

Yes, we'll definitely define it as a straw man, that way it'll take slightly longer for you to make an absolute fool of yourself (again).
 
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Nathan Poe

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Yes, we'll definitely define it as a straw man, that way it'll take slightly longer for you to make an absolute fool of yourself (again).

Pay him no mind; no point letting a good Biblical discussion get sidetracked by blather.
 
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dad

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And yet he commissioned the compiling of the Bible. What's in it today is because of him. Not your god, not the holy spirit, but a mortal man. Fallible and all.
Make up your mind...one minute you are fleeing, claiming I am on ignore, the next you spout off? As I said, the man was a tool. God was behind it. The scriptures existed already, and just needed to come together.
 
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