• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Bible-Creation-Evolution (2)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Nathan Poe

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2002
32,198
1,693
51
United States
✟41,319.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Democrat
OK

Yes, the Bible is clear, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. I grew up in Florida but was born in NY. Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in BETHLEHEM of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Would you mind sharing why and how you made the move? And then would you like to discuss if those reasons and methods were available to someone living in 1st century Judea?

Holy Ghost

Sorry -- you said "no interpretations."

The traditional story is not the Truth that is found in the Word of God. Also, what is "the issue"???

The issue is that Christians have been getting their info from the wrong source for quite some time -- especially once they start actually looking at the "Word of God."

Where in the Word of God do you see Mary and Joseph already living in Bethlehem?

Where in the word of Matthew (remember, we're just talking about Matthew's Gospel; Luke's hadn't even been written yet) do you see otherwise? Matthew's story assumes Mary and Joseph living in Bethlehem; The famous "star of Bethlehem" led the wise men not to a manger, but to their house (Matthew 2:11). The star appearing over a manger and the wise men coming there -- that's Christmas play theology; you're well rid of it.

I see nothing here. If you have a point, make it more clear.

What story exactly?

A wicked king, to preserve his own power, orders newborn male children put to death, and you don't see an Old Testament connection?

I thought you said you were Jewish?


You seriously need to go back and read Exodus -- your spiritual understanding is sorely lacking, my friend.


The second time a "Joseph" has done that -- and he's almost identical to the first one.

And like I told you earlier, It is a spiritual book. And within the Word of God, there is always a picture of whats to come. Adam for instance is a type of Jesus. As are the following:

Abraham - The Father of the Faith
Isaac - The Sacrificed Son
Joseph - The Suffering Servant
Moses - The Deliverer
Jonathon - The Faithful Friend
David - The King in Exile
Solomon - The Millennial Reign
Nehemiah - The Rebuilder of our Salvation


Sorry, you specifically said that you were not going to rely on any interpretations -- just "the Word of God." Now you're relying on archetypes of either your own or some other theologian's invention.

See how little one gets out of "the Word of God" without some sort of interpretive framework?

I read some of your posts since I last posted you, I do not fear anything you have said neither has it troubled me. You simply have not offered anything of interest or specific as of yet.

So you say, but you weren't able to refute anything according to the terms you yourself set -- and your denial of Exodus is beneath you.

Why do I get the impression you're slowing making your way towards the Emergency Exit?
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,803
6,358
Erewhon
Visit site
✟1,198,115.00
Faith
Atheist
An easy read is Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.

The title is misleading; the book covers the process of determining how we know what we know should be (or was) in the Bible.

I don't think that covers necessarily what you are asking, but it is good read nonetheless.

I look forward, however, to Nathan's recommendations.
 
Upvote 0

Hespera

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2008
7,237
201
usa
✟8,860.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
OK

Yes, the Bible is clear, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. I grew up in Florida but was born in NY. Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in BETHLEHEM of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Holy Ghost

The traditional story is not the Truth that is found in the Word of God. Also, what is "the issue"???

Where in the Word of God do you see Mary and Joseph already living in Bethlehem?

I see nothing here. If you have a point, make it more clear.

What story exactly?

How?

Ok


And like I told you earlier, It is a spiritual book. And within the Word of God, there is always a picture of whats to come. Adam for instance is a type of Jesus. As are the following:

Abraham - The Father of the Faith
Isaac - The Sacrificed Son
Joseph - The Suffering Servant
Moses - The Deliverer
Jonathon - The Faithful Friend
David - The King in Exile
Solomon - The Millennial Reign
Nehemiah - The Rebuilder of our Salvation

I read some of your posts since I last posted you, I do not fear anything you have said neither has it troubled me. You simply have not offered anything of interest or specific as of yet.


if you actually have some sort of interest in truth.I wonder why you are so pleased with that utterly false and misleading "cartoon"?
 
Upvote 0

1611AV

REPENT YE, AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.
May 1, 2010
1,154
47
Florida
✟24,157.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In case anyone's interested, I'm ready to discuss the Bethlehem myth according to Luke, now.

Luke's got the same problem Matthew has: Jesus lives in Nazareth, but needs to be born in Bethlehem. Since Luke's not trying to mirror OT heroes like Matthew is, he comes up with a completely different solution.

Luke 2:1-5
[1] And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
[2] (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
[3] And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David)
[5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.


Whoa, Mama -- let's count the historical problems in these five verses alone.
  1. The Romans were pretty meticulous record-keepers, yet no record of any such decree from Agustus exists.
  2. The Roman records on Cyrenius are pretty solid, however -- he became governor of Syria around the end of AD 6. But Jesus was born when Herod was King (Luke 1:5) which couldn't have been after 4 BC. New math?
  3. The world should be taxed? The entire Roman empire, all at once? Romans didn't do it that way -- taxes were collected province by province, for reasons which should be blindingly obvious: trying to do the whole thing at once would've overwhelmed the Roman bureacracy and brought the whole government to a screeching halt.
  4. Judaea became a Roman province around AD 6, Iudaea, but that province did not include Galilee -- if there was such a census or tax, Joseph, a Galilean, was not subject to it. He made the trip for nothing.
  5. Each to their own city? Did Augustus actually expect every single subject and citizen of the empire to drop everything and make the trip for this? never mind the government; the empire itself would fall apart!
  6. Since when does any census or taxation require a person to go back to the place of your birth? The census, especially for purposes of taxation, isn't about where you're from, but about where you are. It's a completely unnecessary literary ploy to get Joseph and his family on the road.
  7. Luke has to return to Bethlehem because he is a descendant of David. Luke 3:23-38 names 41 generations from David to Joseph -- 41! Think of how many heirs and descendants would be produced over 41 generations -- now multiply that number when you consider that David himself had several wives, concubines, and mistresses that we know of through the Bible. How many people with a Davidic claim would be descending on O little town of Bethlehem? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Kind of explains why there was no room at the inn, doesn't it?
  8. Nazareth is about 100 miles or so from Bethlehem --not only is that 100 miles through scorching desert (making daytime travel unsafe and unwise) and pitch-black night (making nighttime travel unsafe and unwise), but to get there, you'd have to travel through Samaria -- making any travel for a Jew unsafe and unwise. Joseph not only made this trek (about 7-10 days on foot or donkey) for no reason (see point 4) but thought it was a good idea to bring his 9-month pregnant wife along! Smooth move, Joseph.
  9. As if points 4 and 8 don't qualify Joseph for the "Bonehead of the Century" award, let's not forget that the Roman census did not include women -- only men. If Joseph had no reason to go to Bethlehem, then Mary had even less reason to go.
So really, the only way any of this can be true is if the entire Roman Empire had gone completely insane, and Joseph was the biggest idiot to ever walk the Earth.

Sorry, I choose not to belive either of those, let alone both.

Can you site your history of Cyrenius?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That's the default position. The burden of proof is on you to show that it's true.

You consider the Qu'ran false...so?
I consider the koran a bit like the gospel of thomas....not relevant to creation, or inspired of the Spirit of the Living God.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Apparently not since I have yet to see a creationist come on these boards and lay out a clear concise view of creationism with supporting evidence. Apparently the first step in supporting "The Truth"(tm) is to attack evolution.
Science is not able to deal in evidence beyond the present state where science lives. Strawman. Creation is not a view. Unless our laws, the laws science piddles around in, are known to have applied to Adam, and Noah's day, we must use evidence such as records. They support me to the hilt, and oppose old agers to the hilt.
 
Upvote 0

rjc34

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
1,382
16
✟1,769.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Others
I consider the koran a bit like the gospel of thomas....not relevant to creation, or inspired of the Spirit of the Living God.

Good thing what you consider something has no effect on what it is.

So because the early church decided the Gospel of Thomas didn't fit in with what they were teaching and left it out out of the bible means it's invalid?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Good thing what you consider something has no effect on what it is.
Nor does your opinion have an effect on God or His tried and tested word.



Ro 3:3 -For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

So because the early church decided the Gospel of Thomas didn't fit in with what they were teaching and left it out out of the bible means it's invalid?
It may be valid, but not inspired. At least not enough for God to include it in the stuff that matters.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It did not follow and it didn't make any sense in the context of the conversation.

So yes, I guess it was a non point.
The original gist was that the poster had no point to address just blather. I see that appeals to you.
 
Upvote 0

rjc34

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
1,382
16
✟1,769.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Others
Nor does your opinion have an effect on God or His tried and tested word.

I tried confessing all my sins to God... he was speechless.



Ro 3:3 -For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Ezekiel 23:20 - There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

It may be valid, but not inspired. At least not enough for God to include it in the stuff that matters.

God didn't make the bible, Constantine commissioned it.
 
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
31,158
15,608
Seattle
✟1,240,166.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Science is not able to deal in evidence beyond the present state where science lives. Strawman. Creation is not a view. Unless our laws, the laws science piddles around in, are known to have applied to Adam, and Noah's day, we must use evidence such as records. They support me to the hilt, and oppose old agers to the hilt.


Unmitigated pap, as has been pointed out to you countless times. :wave:
 
Upvote 0

Nathan Poe

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2002
32,198
1,693
51
United States
✟41,319.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Democrat
Can you site your history of Cyrenius?

Quirinius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- as well as just about every other record that exists of the man.

Of course, I don't have to tell you that Cyrenius and Quirinius are the same person, or that the KJV (which I use for my Bible verses) chooses to use the Greek, not the Latin, version of his name.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.