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Bible-Creation-Evolution (2)

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AV1611VET

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This must be extremely frustrating for evolutionists.
I know.

Whenever your corner them, they give you this white-to-black grayscale explanation of how evolution works; but then, when you ask for transitional fossils, you get some spiel about, "there aren't any".
 
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AV1611VET

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So you don't know, and you don't care.
Neither do you -- or you'd be out there looking for the trillions of fossils that this earth should be salted with, if evolution is even halfway viable.
 
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AV1611VET

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One word for you, AV: Archaeopteryx...
One down ... 999,999,999 to go, eh?

Remember: just one break in the daisy chain can spell the end of evolution.
I think more transitional than that is quite difficult...
But, as you said, you don't care, right?
Not one iota.
 
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AV1611VET

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Good question. They are not missing at all. We have so many that we actually have skulls that we cannot classify - they share traits with 2 different groups of hominids, and we don't know if we are to call them an early example of the older one, or a late example of the early one.
Can you give me a ballpark figure?
 
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Tiberius

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Maybe for you -- but to me, it isn't.

Again, why are they called 'missing links'?

The term is not a valid one. Evolution takes place along a spectrum, it is not neatly divided up into clearly defined species.

Between any two individuals separated by a long period of time, there is a continuous line of intermediates, each one being the offspring of an individual from the generation before. There is a continuous line of individuals from the most recent common ancestor of chimps and humans and you, AV. There is a similar line for me (which diverges in the very recent past, because the most recent common ancestor between you and me lived much more recently).

Each such individual is like a link in a chain. Imagine we call the most recent common ancestor of chimps and humans "Bob". And we'll use you as an example as well. There is a continuous unbroken line of parents and offspring between Bob and you. Imagine you could go back in time and follow this snippet of evolution as, over time, this lineage evolved from Bob's species to modern humans. As you watched, you'd notice that each individual, each link in the chain, is slightly less Bob-like and slightly more AV-like. There's no point at which a member of Bob's species gives birth to a modern Human.

Here's another way of looking at it. Here's a gradient that goes from black to white.

Gradient.jpg


You could imagine each pixel is an individual, and going from left to right is like a timeline. Each pixel is the offspring of the pixel to the left, and the parent of the pixel to the right. Gradually, the pixels are evolving to go from black to white. But there's no point where there is a white pixel next to a black pixel. If you look at any single pixel, you would say that it is the same colour as the pixels on either side of it. And yet the colour changes from black to white.

The same gradual change happens in evolution. If you look at any individual animal, you would say it is the same speices as its parent, and it is the same species as its offspring. But the population is still able to evolve over many generations and become a new species in just the same way that the pixels were able to change from black to white.

Now, the trouble with a term like "missing link" is this. If two very similar species are examioned, we can see that they are different. But if we were to find an intermediate between them - some individual on the chain of evolution that joins them - some could say that this new discovery is a member of the older species that has some characteristics of the later species. But others could say that it is a member of the newer species that has characteristics of the old species. And because evolution takes place along a continuum, both are correct. So you see, the term "missing link" comes about because of the human need to name things. We see it as either a member of a particular species or not. The term "missing link" comes about simply because of the limitations of human language, not because of the process of evolution.
 
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TheReasoner

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I know.

Whenever your corner them, they give you this white-to-black grayscale explanation of how evolution works; but then, when you ask for transitional fossils, you get some spiel about, "there aren't any".

So why not see it as follows:
"Maybe there's something here I don't understand. I need to read up on this. If for nothing else to see what they mean"

The greyscale analogy has a lot going for it. Evolution is a transitional process. You can't show precisely where white begins and black ends, it's gradual. So yeah. There are no missing links because it (metaphorically) isn't a chain, but a wire.
 
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Matthijs

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Can you give me a ballpark figure?

The total number of fossils? No idea actually. Is it relevant?

I do know that every time we produce a transitional fossil, found roughly where we would expect it to be found and from the proper level, the creationists say "Aha! So there are 2 gaps in stead of one!"

The idea that the earth should be salted with millions of fossils is a display of willful ignorance. Fossils are rare - some types rarer than others. Trilobites leave lovely fossils, so we have found about 50 different species. Nematode worms do not fossilize easily, so they are much rarer.

oh and as for

One down ... 999,999,999 to go, eh?

Remember: just one break in the daisy chain can spell the end of evolution.

There are many, many more in fact. Each generation would show a slight change in the frequency of the genes, so really you would have to come up with a fossil from every species at every generation if what you said makes sense. It doesn't.

If evolution is not true, then why are we not finding mammals in the precambrian, but we ARE finding them much later where we would expect to find them?
 
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Koizito

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One down ... 999,999,999 to go, eh?

Remember: just one break in the daisy chain can spell the end of evolution.

Not one iota.

You want to have at least a fossil for every single transitional (I know this isn't a correct word for it, but what the hell...) species there should be? Do you know how hard it is to occur fossilization? Oh wait, you don't care...
One break could spell the end of evolution? Maybe, if fossilization was an event that occured 100% of the times... But you don't care...
And we don't have only the fossils to prove evolution, we have geographic, genetic, etc. evidence that show that evolution is true... But you are not interested in all of this stuff...

P.S.: I wonder what you are doing here, if you are not interested in hearing the other side of the argument...
 
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AV1611VET

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If evolution is not true, then why are we not finding mammals in the precambrian, but we ARE finding them much later where we would expect to find them?
Because all these labels (precambrian, eocene, etc.) are nothing more than gerrymandering.

That's like asking me, "Then why are we not finding goldfish in my coffee, but we are finding them in our fishbowls?"

I'm sure if you found fossils of mammals in precambrian rock, you would simply change the designation (gerrymander) of the rock to something else.

It's all done on paper -- evolution runs on a wheelchair.

[sign]In my [right to have an] opinion.[/sign]​
 
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TheReasoner

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It's all done on paper -- evolution runs on a wheelchair.

Only in your mind. It's rock solid. Even if you can't accept it for one reason or another.

[sign]In my [right to have an] opinion.[/sign]​

Of course you do. And I'll fight for your right to have it as vehemently as I'll fight your opinion. I REALLY don't see why you're a creationist though AV. Have you considered really sitting down and working through the stuff you criticize? What if you're wrong? You COULD be fighting against God's will. Many have done so before, believing to have a sound position.
 
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Koizito

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Because all these labels (precambrian, eocene, etc.) are nothing more than gerrymandering.

That's like asking me, "Then why are we not finding goldfish in my coffee, but we are finding them in our fishbowls?"

I'm sure if you found fossils of mammals in precambrian rock, you would simply change the designation (gerrymander) of the rock to something else.

It's all done on paper -- evolution runs on a wheelchair.

[sign]In my [right to have an] opinion.[/sign]​

No, no... Science works by trying to explain what is observed and not by adapting what is observed to the explanations scientists have...

P.S.: Is that sentence below your nick sarcastic? I hope it is... And sorry for the off-topic... :)
 
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Supreme

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I've been an evolutionist from as long as I remember- before I was a Christian, certainly- and have remained to do so. I have never felt inclined to adopt a view that is not even important in Christianity over a scientifically demonstrated and plausible theory as evolution.
 
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1611AV

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I've been an evolutionist from as long as I remember- before I was a Christian, certainly- and have remained to do so. I have never felt inclined to adopt a view that is not even important in Christianity over a scientifically demonstrated and plausible theory as evolution.

Do you believe in the Theory of Evolution?
 
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TheReasoner

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I've been an evolutionist from as long as I remember- before I was a Christian, certainly- and have remained to do so. I have never felt inclined to adopt a view that is not even important in Christianity over a scientifically demonstrated and plausible theory as evolution.

Good on ya mate! The conflict does not seem real to me. To be honest I think the discordance many people sense between Christianity and Evolution appears... Well, to be honest, nonsensical. I don't see where it's coming from.

This from someone who used to be a bible-basher. Took a while before I realized what I was promoting was far more likely to be heretical than that which I was attacking. In my humble opinion. I could be wrong in that, but if I am why is there no evidence for creationism and so much against it?
 
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AV1611VET

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No, no... Science works by trying to explain what is observed and not by adapting what is observed to the explanations scientists have...
I think 'gerrymandering' is a good word for it.

Our solar system got gerrymandered when Pluto was reclassified.

And if you can reclassify the solar system, I'm sure you'll have no problem reclassifying precambrian rock.

I can see it now:

Due to the discovery of multiple mammalian fossils in the rockbeds surrounding Whoville, scientists have upgraded the area from precambrian to cambrian.
I'm sure that's how it would work.
P.S.: Is that sentence below your nick sarcastic?
No -- it's how science acts when a miracle shows up.

Without it, Noah's Ark would have never floated, the burning bush would have burned up, Shadrach would have perished in the furnace, Jonah would never have visited Nineveh, the lions would have eaten Daniel, and Jesus would not have walked on water.
 
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AV1611VET

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Says the man who relies on invented "dispensations" to explain God's inactivity.
I'm sure you meant 'activity' -- since each dispensation ends in a specific judgment of God.
 
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