Bible-Creation-Evolution (2)

[AV1611VET]

True, AV -- John's Gospel was written after Christianity was seen as a separate religious movement.

Which goes a long way to explain why John reads so differently from the other three, doesn't it?

Alas, you've demonstrated a nugget of wisdom; it's futile to expect a discussion until you're done crowing about it.

-- Wow!

Keep on, Nathan, you're making yourself look even worse.

 

[Nathan Poe]

-- Wow!

Keep on, Nathan, you're making yourself look even worse.

Crow on, AV -- just don't pull a muscle slapping yourself on the back.

 

[AV1611VET]

Crow on, AV -- just don't pull a muscle slapping yourself on the back.

For the record, Luke was Greek.

John's Gospel is not considered synoptic.

 

[Nathan Poe]

For the record, Luke was Greek.

John's Gospel is not considered synoptic.

For the record, you don't know that -- it's only speculation.

For the record, there is such a thing as a Greek Jew.

For the record, Luke lifted so much from Matthew, who was invested heavily in the Hebrew tradition, that it's a moot point.

Now, since we all know that you don't have the stones to participate in this discussion in any meaningful way, why don't you run along and let the other Mr. 1611, the interesting one, get a word in?

 

[AV1611VET]

For the record, you don't know that -- it's only speculation.

For the record then, I'll take this with a grain of salt:

Remember when I said that the Gospels were written by Jews? There's a reason that's important.

 

[Matthijs]

1. Word of God does not say the earth is a box
2. Word of God did not say the water came from on the earth.
3. When God prepares a great fish for that purpose, YES!


Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Genesis 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a GREAT FISH to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

You still cant build the Ark - did God prepare the wood as well? It specifies Gopher wood - I expect Lebanese Pine is meant, the best wood available in the area at the time. But even it would collapse under it's own weight if you built it.

And the earth is described as having 4 corners in the bible - it just contradicts itself again afterwards as you have just pointed out.

I am also surprised at the magic fish that God prepared - you say that this was literally true and the story of Noah is not an allegorical story? And that God made water fall from space and flew it back out again?

And all this you accept on the basis of a hunch, authority and an ancient book, but for Evolution you demand to be taken back in timemachine before you will even entertain it?

 

[Hespera]

Yet the Word of God has never been proven wrong

But a lot of things that people claimed were the "word of god" sure have been.

 

[Nathan Poe]

For the record then, I'll take this with a grain of salt:

Doesn't mean anything to me -- now hang up and put the interesting Mr. 1611 back on the line.

 

[1611AV]

Doesn't mean anything to me -- now hang up and put the interesting Mr. 1611 back on the line.

Surely you are not suggesting I am VETs sock puppet, are you? Lets hear this revelation you have regarding Jesus.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Surely you are not suggesting I am VETs sock puppet, are you?

I wouldn't dream of insulting you like that.

Lets hear this revelation you have regarding Jesus.

There's nothing particularly revolutionary about it -- The simple fact of is that the Gospels are primarily Jewish documents, written by and for the Jews, tramsmitted and preserved orally via the synagogue for decades until they were finally put to paper -- and when they were, they were done so by people looking to incorporate Jesus into the Jewish tradition alongside of the Jews' other great heroes, such as Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, etc., and, with those very scriptures open in front of them, tried to explain the Jesus experience and his importance by couching it in terms that ther readers (the Jews) would understand.

The problem is that most Christians simply don't get or believe any of this -- they completely discount the Jewish context of the Gospels, replacing it with church doctrine formed decades, centuries, even, after the fact, to the point where they try to impose this medieval paradigm over the OT, claiming, as I believe you yourself did, that the Jews -- the very people who wrote it all, mind you -- are (what's the phrase you used?) "spiritually blind."

Ain't that something? Talk about the blind quite literally leading the blind!

Shake aside church traditon and mythology and read the Gospels as they were written -- as a Jew would -- and there's so much to be learned about Jesus of Nazareth, but to do that, you have to discard church apologetics which serve no purpose except as vain attempts to cast those Gospels as something they were not -- historical documents.

Because that's the plain and simple truth to it -- they're not historical. Never were; never were meant to be. The Jews knew that, but the Christians have been dismissing the Jews ever since they hijacked their "Old" Testament.

Where would you like to begin? Jesus' birth? His family? The twelve disciples? The miracle stories? The crucifixion? The resurrection?

Up to you, friend -- and please bear in mind, I do hope you understand that I am not, in any way, trying to prove the Bible "wrong" -- only that people have been reading it wrong for a very long time.

 

[Belk]

For the record then, I'll take this with a grain of salt:

Given the number of things you take with a grain of salt I think I'll open a slat mine. I'll be rich in no time.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Given the number of things you take with a grain of salt I think I'll open a slat mine. I'll be rich in no time.

Indeed -- the money you make just might offset having to do business with AV.

 

[Belk]

Indeed -- the money you make just might offset having to do business with AV.

As long as he doesn't have some sort of an embedded money theory.

 

[TheReasoner]

Yet the Word of God has never been proven wrong

But a lot of things that people claimed were the "word of god" sure have been.

What Hespera said.

 

[Tiberius]

QED: 181

Geez, you didn't actually read what I said, did you?

I thought it was clear that EVERY fossil is a transitional fossil. A transition between what came before it and what came after it.

You creationists are the ones who think that evolution works by having a species relatively unchanged for a million years, then BAM it gives birth to a member of the next species. An ape giving birth to a person. A fish giving birth to an amphibian. A dinosaur giving birth to a bird.

Now, AV, would you actually answer the question I asked you before? You gave an example of time as something that limits macroevolution. Then you said there was another one, then started something about tree rings. Could you explain what this second limiting factor is?

 

[1611AV]

I wouldn't dream of insulting you like that.



There's nothing particularly revolutionary about it -- The simple fact of is that the Gospels are primarily Jewish documents, written by and for the Jews, tramsmitted and preserved orally via the synagogue for decades until they were finally put to paper -- and when they were, they were done so by people looking to incorporate Jesus into the Jewish tradition alongside of the Jews' other great heroes, such as Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, etc., and, with those very scriptures open in front of them, tried to explain the Jesus experience and his importance by couching it in terms that ther readers (the Jews) would understand.

The problem is that most Christians simply don't get or believe any of this -- they completely discount the Jewish context of the Gospels, replacing it with church doctrine formed decades, centuries, even, after the fact, to the point where they try to impose this medieval paradigm over the OT, claiming, as I believe you yourself did, that the Jews -- the very people who wrote it all, mind you -- are (what's the phrase you used?) "spiritually blind."

Ain't that something? Talk about the blind quite literally leading the blind!

Shake aside church traditon and mythology and read the Gospels as they were written -- as a Jew would -- and there's so much to be learned about Jesus of Nazareth, but to do that, you have to discard church apologetics which serve no purpose except as vain attempts to cast those Gospels as something they were not -- historical documents.

Because that's the plain and simple truth to it -- they're not historical. Never were; never were meant to be. The Jews knew that, but the Christians have been dismissing the Jews ever since they hijacked their "Old" Testament.

Where would you like to begin? Jesus' birth? His family? The twelve disciples? The miracle stories? The crucifixion? The resurrection?

Up to you, friend -- and please bear in mind, I do hope you understand that I am not, in any way, trying to prove the Bible "wrong" -- only that people have been reading it wrong for a very long time.

Nathan, start a thread on this subject so we can keep this one on topic. I think your thread would be very interesting discussion. let me know what you think and when and if you start it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Geez, you didn't actually read what I said, did you?

Not really.

I thought it was clear that EVERY fossil is a transitional fossil. A transition between what came before it and what came after it.

Something I'm well-aware of.

You creationists are the ones who think that evolution works by having a species relatively unchanged for a million years, then BAM it gives birth to a member of the next species. An ape giving birth to a person. A fish giving birth to an amphibian. A dinosaur giving birth to a bird.

Then why did I make this doosey of a post: 11 ?

 

[1611AV]

Edit Sig

 

[AV1611VET]

Edit Sig

-- love it!

 

[1611AV]

-- love it!

Thought you might