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Featured Bible and science?

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by God saves, Mar 23, 2019.

  1. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    It works very well, given natural selection.

    In fact, engineers are now using it to solve problems that are too difficult to solve by design. And yes, most of the mutations, in that process are "harmful." Doesn't matter, as long as the few good ones survive and reproduce.
     
  2. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    For example moon is "light" according to the Bible, but in reality its just a big, dead object. You cannot land on "light" and put a flag there.

    Most of times, its in error.

    "Like most ancient peoples, the Hebrews believed the sky was a solid dome with the Sun, Moon, planets and stars embedded in it. According to The Jewish Encyclopedia:

    The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse"
    Firmament - Wikipedia

    Job 19:27, Ps 16:7, Ps 7:10, Jer 11:20, Jer 17:10, Jer 20:12, Rev 2:23

    "...scales have the capability to form feathers given the proper molecular signals."
    https://phys.org/news/2017-11-modern-genomics-alligator-scales-birdlike.html

    Also, many dinosaurs were feathered.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  3. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member

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    Well ICR AIG and CRS believe in speciation they always have. But we are talking Darwinian or big E evolution and not just generic change evolution. Speciation is due more to Mendels Law and not to undirected unplanned random mutations changing a mouse. But speciation is still in the biblical decree of kinds stating kinds. A mouse who becomes a different mouse is still a mouse- you need to demonstrate how a fish mutates to an amphibian or a reptile to a bird.

    point 2 Yes it came from the ground but the earth was not pre seeded. the plant life came ex-Deo.

    YOu : "And yet, it accurately identified the date of the volcanic eruption that buried Pompeii."

    Even a broken watch is right twice a day!

    It appears that ar40/ar39 is not a new methodology to replace k/ar dating. then. with a half life of 269 years we cannot trace that out to over 1 billion years that we can measure. we have no system that sensitive enough.

    You : "Nope. You can't use sedimentary rock for radioisotope dating. I bet, if you thought about it a bit, you'd realize why."

    don't tell geologists that!

    Well at least we are on the same page as to how radio dating works!

    You : "A researcher in Rome presented this finding. However, no one to date has been able to reproduce it. So there's a problem. Morever, if the atmosphere of the Earth had experienced such huge pressure waves, very little but microbes would have survived."

    What pressure waves. The massive rains? the fountains spewing open? The massive tectonic activity?

    As to the reproduction by other labs or scientists I know not if it was tried to be reproduced.

    And we can only speculate what would and would not survive- we have no empirical data to support any of what took place when the flood occurred.
     
  4. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Speciation is all that happens. Two populations will diverge farther and farther. Hence many creationists now allow for the evolution of new species, genera, and families. But there's no boundary out there; it can go on indefinitely.

    No. Mendel offered no idea why species evolve. He did realize that they did, but did not say why.

    Not hard to do. As your fellow YE creationist, Kurt Wise shows, there is "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory in the numerous series of transitional fossils. He mentions both of those series. He doesn't believe they evolved; he just notes that the evidence indicates that they did, and supposes that eventually, a creationist explanation will be possible.

    Barbarian, regarding an important test of radioisotope dating:
    "And yet, it accurately identified the date of the volcanic eruption that buried Pompeii."

    But here we have a choice not of 12 hours, but billions of years. And the method got it within seven years on the first try. So we know it works.

    It's typically used for isochrons to check the findings of other isotopes. Not surprisingly, those work, too.

    Barbarian observes:
    Nope. You can't use sedimentary rock for radioisotope dating. I bet, if you thought about it a bit, you'd realize why."

    They would tell you that. You can't use sedimentary rocks for radioisotope data. Would you like to learn why?

    Not if you suppose that sedimentary rocks can be used for the method. You still don't get the idea.

    Cavitation produces huge forces, not seen on the surface of the Earth on a geological scale.

    Nope. None of those.

    That's the problem. So far, no one can reproduce it. And that's a huge problem.

    No, that's wrong, too. The levels of radiation you're supposing are far too high for any living thing on Earth to survive.
     
  5. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member

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    "Like most ancient peoples, the Hebrews believed the sky was a solid dome with the Sun, Moon, planets and stars embedded in it. According to The Jewish Encyclopedia:

    The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse"
    Firmament - Wikipedia



    Job 19:27, Ps 16:7, Ps 7:10, Jer 11:20, Jer 17:10, Jer 20:12, Rev 2:23


    "...scales have the capability to form feathers given the proper molecular signals."
    https://phys.org/news/2017-11-modern-genomics-alligator-scales-birdlike.html

    Also, many dinosaurs were feathered.[/QUOTE]


    Point one- and yet there they are- giving light in the night sky! Once again you are noit picking because God did not inspire a full textbook on what stars are and how the moon reflects the light of the sun.

    Point 2: name one time when the bible is in error about science.

    Well you may wish to rely on wiki and one Jewish encyclopedia wishes to say what the early Jews believed. But I will trust scriptures The Jews believed in three heavens! The firmament (we call it atmoshpere) the firmament of raqyia (the heaven of heavens -space) and the throne of God!

    Point 3- you need to learn how language was used. strictly it is a kidney- but it was also used to declare innermost thoughts and feelings. Once again context defines which is which!

    Point 4: I take it you did not read the article. In order to get feather like growth in alligators- they took genes from a chicken embryo that control feather development and transplanted it into an alligator embryo! That is not Darwinian evolution by mutation and natural selection but very very intelligent design. (I have had this article posted at me several times before). Now show through random, undirected unplanned mutations preserved by natural selection how that occurred- remember it is a fact.

    Also explain how this conveys an advantage to a reptile given the following.

    Reptiles are cold blooded and scales are exothermic heat regulators. Birds are endothermic and feathers are heat preservers. So that velociraptor had to go from cold blooded to wamr blooded in its metabolism.

    scales are dermal skin flaps. Feathers are subdermal to dermal consisting of a follicle, a rachis, barb, barbules,umbilicus, after feathers, hooklets, quills. How did all that happen in a slow micro mutation way that gave the velociraptor an advantage????? While the quill was growing what kind of metabolism did it have- scales are not brioken and seperated and no feathers had formed to trap heat if it had become warm blooded!


    Then demonstrate the elongating and strengthening of the fore limbs to accommodate flight.

    When did the uropygial gland form? How about the diester wax birds use to preen themselves with???

    Why would mutations form a gland that may have taken thousands of years before the wax came along???

    How about raptors rewriting the instinct to begin preening?

    These are just problems associated with the supposed evolution of a feather! Never mind the millions of other mutations it would take for a reptile to become a bird and survive given the knwon fact that too many mutations create a lethal genetic load in a creature!!!!

    Well some think dinosaurs were feathered. Other paleontologists and ornithologists dispute that claim. But even if true- it only moves the problem down the road as to how the feather developed through natural unplanned mutations without killing the creature!
     
  6. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member

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  7. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member

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    Point 1: Yes speciation happens- but it is still a mouse or a bird. they do not change genus.

    Point two: I know of no YEC scientist who accepts Darwinian evolution of genus and family.
    as for boundaries- that is mere speculation- not verified data! we do not even have empirical evidence that any genus has changed.

    Merndel did not credit it to evolution but to dominant and recessive traits. That is why white couplkes can produce a black child if even 20 generations back there was a black person in their lineage.

    You : "Not hard to do. As your fellow YE creationist, Kurt Wise shows, there is "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory in the numerous series of transitional fossils. He mentions both of those series. He doesn't believe they evolved; he just notes that the evidence indicates that they did, and supposes that eventually, a creationist explanation will be possible.

    Well I can't speak to Wise's beliefs and science as I have not read him. There are many bizaare ideas in YEC just like in evolution. transitoinal fossils do not show mutations and evolution- thjey show the replicate remains of creatures that lived and died. Most of the major "transitonal finds" have been debunked both by evolutionists and YEC scientists.

    He would also contradict his own belief system if he accepts macro evolution- for he would have to accept massive changes in short years which could not allow the creature to survive- it would fail due to genetic loads becoming toxic. Also given that over 99.9% of all mutations range from slightly to lethally harmful- the "good mutations" would have to survive on a scale of about 1 to 9,995 bad mutations.

    The big three are the debunked whale transition
    the horse series
    raptors to birds

    You : "Cavitation produces huge forces, not seen on the surface of the Earth on a geological scale."

    And what do you think a global flood where massive rain and huge fountains of water inundated the earth would do???????? Exactly that!!!!!!! The evidence is there. Evolutionists just say it was different floods at different places at different times.
     
  8. Queller

    Queller I'm where?

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    You've never heard the story of Jesus healing the blind men? Wow.

    Mark 10:46-52

    Luke 18:35-43

    Matthew 9:27-31

    Here's a great page where you can read all three version of the story on the same page.

    Source

     
  9. Queller

    Queller I'm where?

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    Where is the mountain from which you can see all the kingdoms of the world?
     
  10. Queller

    Queller I'm where?

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    Nowhere in Genesis does it say anything came out of the body of God. Where do you get this unbiblical idea?
     
  11. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Only appear to be, scientifically, moon is not a light in the sky. Also, flood was not global and man is not from literal dust.

    Thinking with kidneys, tower built to reach heaven, a mountain from which you can see all kingdoms of the world, flat earth, the smallest seed, the value of pi, geocentric worldview, the idea that the heaven is "above" etc.

    Yes, kidneys were thought to be the center of feelings and thinking, thats my point.

    Sorry, I am not a scientist. I am just a layperson. If you are not satisfied with what scientific community says, you must address them, publish some study, create a new working model etc.

    You can talk about the Bible with me, though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  12. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member

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  13. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member

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    MAtthew is a different healing.

    Mark and Luke are the same healing.
     
  14. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Nolidad, you need to learn how to quote posts properly, because this is unreadable.

    Click on "edit" and see how the QUOTE tags fit into the text. You can then repeat the QUOTE tags as many times you need in a post.
     
  15. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    you do realize that firmament means something hard enough to walk on and the people who wrote the Bible actually thought the sky was a hard dome with lights stuck to it . Modern English usage of firmament to mean the sky is poetic
     
  16. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    In fact, the story of Noah says that the firmament is solid, with gates in it that open to let water fall through as rain.

    This is troubling only to those who believe that the Bible is inerrant even to incidental things not related to God's message to us.
     
  17. dad

    dad On the winning side

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    They are wrong. Nothing about fossils or species or anything else contradicts the truth of the bible.
     
  18. dad

    dad On the winning side

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    No. Since the sun and stars were in the firmament, obviously no one seriously thought any such foolish thing. In fact the ancients had great wisdom regarding the heavenly movements.
     
  19. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    lol to the point that they accepted astrology
     
  20. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    And believed that sun, moon and planets are gods...
     
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