Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I guess Jesus was lying in Matthew 25:46 when He said "these [on His left hand] shall go away into eternal punishment?"No, the bible preaches ETERNAL HELL is the price to be paid for sin....RIGHT? That's what you believe....right? So, why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL, in your place, paying that price? And don't tell me He isn't there because he was perfect, or He was God, or 'whatever whatever'. Because every answer you can give does just one thing, it 'changes the price'. He isn't sitting in ETERNAL HELL being painfully tortured FOREVER because that was never the price to begin with.
Again---the Godfire falls on the lost--it does not harm those that are covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Said it over and over. Like Meshack, Abednego and Shadrack---it will not harm the saved---but it kills those not covered by the blood of Jesus. As the same fire killed the soldiers tossing the Jews into the furnace, but the fire did not harm the Jews. Godfire is hellfire to the lost.
Dear Laz: The word vanity encapsulates in exquisite form the results of Adam's broken union with the Lord of Glory.
Vanity = mataiotes =
Emptiness as a final result.
Empty>>> empty >>>empty!
[QUOTE="FineLinen, post: 74574375, member: 6357 I will however again say, mankind was made sinners by no choice of its own but by reason of Him who made it so.
God comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found!
Pardon me, but is that hellfire for the Lost Sheep that Our Savior is diligently looking for...but has not managed to find before the Judgment? He told us that if He were lifted up (which He was) then He would draw (some say "drag") all men to Himself. Your interpretation makes Him a failure, for He misses that 1% lost out of the 99% saved. I sincerely believe UR has far fewer things to explain away, but you have a big one there.
That's a good question, and well stated.Fellows, as I was reading up on universalism some things came into mind.
Peter who was crucified for his faith in Christ said he was not worthy to be crucified in the same manner as our Lord and requested to be crucified upside down.
Steven who was stoned to death for his faith, calling on the Lord to forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing.
And on and on, those who gave their lives for Christ.
Will Adolf Hitler and such people as this, as you say "in Gods love and mercy" enter into the same Kingdom of God?
If they do, this is not a just God and why should we serve Him?
Not true of UR.According to UR we can live like the devil himself, die, suffer partial judgement, and then enter into the Kingdom of God.
That's a good question, and well stated.
Now you are asking questions instead of giving ignorant rebuttals. Kudos.
Sin is sin. What is the penalty for sin. Does the penalty change based on the sin?
Do those who have worked harder, or given more receive a better reward?
More directly, no, Adolf Hitler doesn't automatically get the same reward as the Apostle Peter at death. They both will face judgment. Peter will have stuff to deal with and Hitler will have stuff to deal with. (lots more stuff, obviously) Will they both be restored in the end? Yes. Is that fair and just? Grace says, yes.
UR rubbish. Please show me one verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally say that they will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death?
While I am waiting for the nonexistent verse(s) let us read what Jesus said on the subject.
Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
In Mark 9:43-48 when Jesus said "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Was He concerned about the life span of worms or about the fate of mankind? If, as UR argues, sinners will be miraculously reconciled what difference does the life of the worms make?
.....If sinners are reconciled right out of "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm does not die." will they be instantly filled with love for God who put them there in the first place? Why doesn't that happen when people put in prison in this life?
Scripture please.
Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
If, as UR argues, sinners will be miraculously reconciled what difference does the life of the worms make?
.If sinners are reconciled right out of "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm does not die." will they be instantly filled with love for God who put them there in the first place? Why doesn't that happen when people put in prison in this life?
Sin is sin, that I agree!That's a good question, and well stated.
Now you are asking questions instead of giving ignorant rebuttals. Kudos.
Sin is sin. What is the penalty for sin. Does the penalty change based on the sin?
Do those who have worked harder, or given more receive a better reward?
More directly, no, Adolf Hitler doesn't automatically get the same reward as the Apostle Peter at death. They both will face judgment. Peter will have stuff to deal with and Hitler will have stuff to deal with. (lots more stuff, obviously) Will they both be restored in the end? Yes. Is that fair and just? Grace says, yes.
Keep reading.Sin is sin, that I agree!
The difference between Peter and Hitler is that Peter repented of his sin and Hitler did not (supposedly, let's say he didn't).
Would Hitler have been saved if he repented? Absolutely YES. But if he didn't he will spend eternity in hell.
And your translation of hell will not change that fact.
If the ultimate destination of mankind is that they all will be saved then we most certainly can live like hell. Period!!!Not true of UR.
Please post true statements. Thanks.
So Jesus was the obedient One and we don't have to be obedient to Him?
We can raise all the hell we want in life and reject the obedient One and after a partial judgement, we will enter into His presence?
Keep reading.
Sin is sin. What is the penalty for sin? Does the penalty change based on the sin?
Do those who have worked harder, or given more receive a different reward?
Matthew 20:12
‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
But the pain will subside, and in the end that person will be with Christ.We love him cause he loved us first. The more corrupt you are at the end, the more painful it will probably be to be confronted with a life lived in vain.
Does history show the threat of eternal damnation led to anything but evil?
There would be no eternal damnation if not for evil.We love him cause he loved us first. The more corrupt you are at the end, the more painful it will probably be to be confronted with a life lived in vain.
Does history show the threat of eternal damnation led to anything but evil?
There would be no eternal damnation if not for evil.
Meaningless rubbish. If anything is mistranslated PROVE it, don't just repeat it over and over .QED. The usual grab-bag of a handful of mistranslated isolated scriptures in an effete attempt to prove the unprovable.
Help me out here where does Jesus, Himself, says He will save the unrighteous after death?You'd like scriptures from Jesus' own mouth proving God saves after physical death? Try these:
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev 1:17-18)
Assumptions and presuppositions. Please explain to me how something that is "implied" is "unequivocal?"The 'keys of death' unequivocally implies a locked holding place, like a prison. We've seen Jesus raise the dead, and here he unequivocally states that he'll release the captives - not selectively, but en masse, and unconditionally.
Wrong! I reject where folks like you reinterpret the words of Jesus, to fit your presumptions about the writings of the disciples. Here you blew off the seven verses I quoted as being mistranslated. Strange how the verses which you think support UR are not mistranslated in the same Bible.I know you reject Paul's teachings on the subject (and therefore the Holy Spirit also), so will you now reject Jesus' teachings as well?
More assumptions/presuppositions.Why, because he's illustrating the principle 'as ye judge, so will ye be judged', turning the tables on the Pharisees, a method he often uses. That's why they stop asking him smart-alecky questions after a while.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.""Who art thou that judgeth another man's servant?"And how will you escape the wrath to come der Alter? Just saying Lord Lord and doing many mighty works in his name may not get you there.
Yet more assumptions/presuppositions. Not oral tradition, scriptures. Perhaps you should stick to reading what the Bible says instead of relying on your own assumptions/presuppositions.The worms are oral tradition, as I said Jesus only refers to them for the purposes of holding a mirror up to the hypocrisy of religious elitism.
Luk 4:18-19 is Jesus ministry in this world, it says nothing about going to hell.It does happen to ppl who get saved in prison. We're all in prison til we get saved, then we're freed, our hearts and minds changed and eyes opened. Doesn't mean we do an Onesimus and make a break for it.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?