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I recently heard an ex-SDA say that that teaching was that the sinful go to hell, get punished in Hell for a limited amount of time (longer time for those who were more sinful), and then get annihilated. Basically universal reconciliation except instead of reconciliation at the end, you cease to exist. So you get both Hell and annihilation.I know that the official SDA position is annihilationism, but I remember reading some of E.G. White's writings, the "Conflict of the Ages" series, IIRC, where she described people going to Hell. That's something that comes from cribbing from multiple sources. Yes, in case you're wondering, I was an SDA member for awhile - studied my way in...and then studied by way back out.
One might come to this conclusion if they only read their out-of-context proof texts and ignore that old heterodox bugaboo "context."BUT - with the death of death, as you say, how can anyone still be be dead and/or in Hell? There is no getting around it: If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell then, obviously, Death has not been defeated, let alone has not died.
Honestly, I feel it sort of gets in the way of the argument, as it makes things rather repetitive. Fine Linen is probably the worst in regards to this, as so many of his posts are just platitudes or stuff copy/pasted from (often rather old and out of date) universalist sources rather than something that's a genuine reply to what people are saying, plus his tendency to put in multiple such posts in a row. The sheer extent of it is making me ponder putting him on Ignore just so I don't have to so constantly scroll past posts that I see as so devoid of meaning and can just read the universalists who are better contributing to the discussion.Getting together having a group hug and patting each other on the back does not advance your argument. The number of proponents of any position does not prove its correctness.
I recently heard an ex-SDA say that that teaching was that the sinful go to hell, get punished in Hell for a limited amount of time (longer time for those who were more sinful), and then get annihilated. Basically universal reconciliation except instead of reconciliation at the end, you cease to exist. So you get both Hell and annihilation.
Take that up with the Seventh Day Adventists, not me. But, I'll admit that this was secondhand information. Could be totally wrong.Why would a loving God punish and then kill forever? I recall that E.G. White's magnum opus, The Great Controversy, begins and ends with the phrase "God is love." I hope I recall that correctly, and would such a God do that?
One might come to this conclusion if they only read their out-of-context proof texts and ignore that old heterodox bugaboo "context."
Let us read a passage Revelation that deals with death being eliminated.
Note, this passage is one continuous narrative some folks desperately try to make this passage support various heterodox beliefs. Verse 5 is after vs. 4, vs. 6 is after vs. 5 etc. there is no logical or grammatical way any verse can be “moved” before or after any other verse.
Revelation 21:4-8The voice from the throne says “no more death, vs. 4, “I make all things new,” vs. 5, “it is done,” vs. 6.
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
But after “no more death” etc. in vs. 8, eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still “the second death,”
See vs. 7, “He that overcomes shall inherit all things,” n.b. there is a condition to inherit all things.” The converse is “He that does NOT overcome shall NOT inherit anything.” For UR to be correct this verse should read “everyone shall inherit all things; and I will be their God, and they shall be my son.”
I must have missed those verses which tell us we get to tell God what is or is not just, merciful, loving etc.Why would a loving God punish and then kill forever? I recall that E.G. White's magnum opus, The Great Controversy, begins and ends with the phrase "God is love." I hope I recall that correctly, and would such a God do that?
I'm pretty sure you don't like being falsely accused any more than I do.I don't want to get anything that takes things that are holy and pure from IN CHRIST and tries to hand them out to the flesh, apart from Christ.
I don't want to get anything that takes things that are holy and pure from IN CHRIST and tries to hand them out to the flesh, apart from Christ.
<LS>For once, I read your entire post carefully, as it lacked multi-colors and references to those "irrefutable sources." I agree with your analysis of verse 7, in which the overcomer inherits all, and others less, little or nothing. As I have said before, I do not believe in the idea that ALL will be ushered into the Holy City under a shower of rose petals, and get all the rewards. Rewards is not the same as being simply saved, and even the saved must suffer some - otherwise they are better than their Master.
Ah yes the old argument about Greek. If you want to refute what I say please consult a parsed NT which will answer your questions. I have an answer but I would like for you to harmonize vss. 4 and 8 without twisting the vss. beyond recognition.
BUT - with the death of death, as you say, how can anyone still be be dead and/or in Hell? There is no getting around it: If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell then, obviously, Death has not been defeated, let alone has not died.
Death and hell are ended when the last sinner is ashes---nothing left. The earth is remade. Nothing else dies ever again. You do not seem to comprehend what death is. To say that as long as anyone is dead it means death has not been defeated is the silliest statement I've ever heard. The new earth has nothing that will ever die again---that is what the death of death means. The wicked have ceased to exist. To try and make that out to be something that is still going on is a totally ignorant thing to say. Nothing is nothing. You make no sense. The wicked will be as though they have never been. You are saying the equivalent "nothing is not defeated because it is nothing!!!"
Dear Lady: Death (all death) is swallowed up in Life (His Life).
Our God loses nothing, not leftover fish and bread from His miracles, and most assuedly every last broken and bruised remnant of the dislocation of Adam 1.
The polus "made sinners" = the polus "made righteous": every one!
It makes sense to me in the context of the rest of the Bible that the second death would be like our first "death", the one which Paul describes in Galatians 2:20.
As for defining love as opposed to God doing it, surely God would do a better job than a mortal man:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5
I look forward to seeing God's actions and judgements because I believe it will be seeing supernatural love in action, and because I believe in a positive outcome which embarasses none of the believers.
For He is kind to the unthankful and to the evil. Luke 6:35
thank youDear Jord: Greetings again. Our God is indeed kind to all including the unthankful and evil.
I am glad you have joined us on C.F. You are a remarkable addition to what some of us are seeing in our magnificent God!
God's judgements are life
Death and hell are ended when the last sinner is ashes---nothing left. The earth is remade. Nothing else dies ever again. You do not seem to comprehend what death is. To say that as long as anyone is dead it means death has not been defeated is the silliest statement I've ever heard. The new earth has nothing that will ever die again---that is what the death of death means. The wicked have ceased to exist. To try and make that out to be something that is still going on is a totally ignorant thing to say. Nothing is nothing. You make no sense. The wicked will be as though they have never been. You are saying the equivalent "nothing is not defeated because it is nothing!!!"
Dear Lady: Cast off your shackles. God loves every last sinner. He always has, He always will. His love is what He is in essence. His steadfast love never ceases: ever!Death is destroyed in the 2nd death. Death will cease to exist after everything is in ashes and there is not one single sinner left---and no sin. Where there is no sin---there is no penalty for it. And the wages of sin is death.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
Steve, I am not falsely accusing you. I respect you and your opinion. We are brothers, I appreciate your help in my other post about speaking in tongues. However, I really believe you need to reexamine your position on forgiveness of sins being outside of Christ. Christ is everything, and apart from Him there is NOTHING!I'm pretty sure you don't like being falsely accused any more than I do.
Where does my post say that there is "propitiation apart or outside of Christ" ?
Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that mean he is the propitiation for all sinners? (the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2)
Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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