Benny Hinn

[Andrew]

Whao, tyreth, you seem very bitter and angry.

And you say you are convinced that the charismatic movt is not from God. So who is it from then? The devil? So I guess you think all charismatics here (esp those who speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick, laugh in the spirit etc) are children of the devil, all sadly deceived.

*LOL*

 

[d0c markus]

God will forgive, but Benny Hinn continues to preach lies. What then should we do? I won't support him. He should be cast out until he *genuinely* repents, and stops preaching lies. And even when he does that, it should be a long time before any of us let him in the pulpit again. He should go through Bible College, and be taught about Christianity, which he pretends to know something about.


How do I know these people are genuinely saved? With all the heresy he teaches, I doubt that very many "Hinn" converts are Christians. Of course I don't actually know that, but I base my reasoning on the same that is used to deny Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as being saved.
Listen to my reasoning: You go to a Benny Hinn crusade. You hear lies preached, and you see people supposedly healed when they are not. You then conclude based on those false doctrines and false miracles that Jesus is alive today, and here is proof of it. Your faith then rests on this farce. One day you discover these for the lies they were. You then must question everything you believe, because it was founded on a lie.
I acknowledge the possibility that some may find genuine salvation through such a horrid display, but they will do so *in spite* of Benny Hinn, not because of. And that is a big difference.
Someone comes to Christ because they think they saw someone healed at a Hinn crusade. They then discover that person was not actually healed. Is their faith on a solid foundation, or is it based on a damnable lie that will shake them when the wind blows?


Are you claiming that Benny Hinn is being persecuted because he is a real minister? Read some of the many lies he has said. He has even committed deep blasphemy, calling himself God! (His words: [font=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][size=-1]"SO, I'M BENNY JEHOVAH!" (Spiritual warfare seminar, May 2 1990)).[/size][/font] He participates in necromancy (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bhnecro.htm), he constantly makes false prophecy (already mentioned in this thread). He makes absurd interpretations of the Bible that are inaccurate. He knows nothing of reason.
Anyway, this is your argument:
1. Real ministers are often persecuted
2. Benny Hinn is persecuted
3. Therefore Benny Hinn is a real minister
That does not follow. It is possible that Benny Hinn is both persecuted and a false minister. Being persecuted is not a sure sign that you are a real minister.

What kind of Christian would say this:
"Never, ever, ever go the Lord and say, 'If it be thy will....' Don't allow such faith-destroying words to be spoken from your mouth" (Rise and Be Healed!, 1991, p47-48) - contrast this with James 4:15

More details:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/unmasked_____benny_hinn.html


Also know that your use of the word 'accuser' is an attempt at telling us we have no right to do the same. Yet the Bible tells us in multiple places to test the spirits, be ready with a defence, and not to tolerate those who bring false doctrines. We should be like the Bereans, testing all things against Scripture (Acts 17:10-11). I refuse to withold my tongue on the faulty premise that such actions are purely in the realm of Satan. God Himself stands as a witness against false prophets, and does not tolerate those who practice lies (Revelation 22:15)


I will not welcome Benny Hinn as a brother. Paul told us to judge other Christians (1 Corinthians 5:11-13). I will not eat with such a one as Benny Hinn, because we are warned in Scripture against such wolves.


We must pray, and we must act. Paul was not idle in prayer, but also active in deed. I cannot imagine him tolerating Benny Hinn, but would instead list him amongst those false prophets publicly, so that the Church would not be deceived, just as he did in Scripture (2 Timothy 2:16-18).


He is not a prophet, he is a false prophet - because he makes prophecies that don't come to pass. We are not to be afraid of him, or any of his babbling curses he makes against those who condemn his 'ministry'.


Butterflies in your stomach, extreme emotions you feel when going to those crusades, do not mean you are experiencing the presence of God. Let me give you a couple of examples.
1. I listen to a secular song, and feel moved in a way I never felt before. The feeling is identical to that which I get in church while praising God. Is God in that secular song?
2. A hindu goes to a guru to hear him preach. He feels an overwhelming sense of peace, joy and love beyond description. Some near him start laughing, others start crying, all sharing in this feeling. Is God speaking through that Hindu guru?

Subjective emotions are no indication of God's presence. Where does the Bible preach that you will know His works by the feeling of His presence? I will tell you that the Scriptures teach that we know His presence by the fruits. And one of those fruits, listed in many places, is self control (Gal. 5:23), and many times in Scripture through reading other Scriptures, understanding, rebuking and correcting. How can we judge unless we study the Scriptures? And when we study the Scriptures, they stand in stark contrast to Benny Hinn's 'ministry'. Therefore, his fruits are deception and lies, and therefore it is not God's presence you sense at his meetings.


Healed people? You mean like the time when a lady fell over from his (Benny's) amazing power, and then another man fell on top of her, crushed her hip and she died? or like the time when Benny prophesied that a man with cancer would live many years more, and in fact died 2 days later? Read here:


From here - http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hinn/general.htm

I have no interest in that kind of healing. I watched a sunday morning show once about Benny Hinn. They looked at a number of his "healings", and followed those people up afterwards. None of them had been healed, but on the night they had felt different. Some even aggravated their injuries due to a stubborn belief that they had been healed.


I have, and the Holy Spirit opened up the Bible and showed me, over many months, the hundreds of reasons why today's charismatic movement is not from Him.

Amen except for your last statement. Not all charismatics buy into garbage. and theres alot of garbage out there.

 

[d0c markus]

Whao, tyreth, you seem very bitter and angry.

And you say you are convinced that the charismatic movt is not from God. So who is it from then? The devil? So I guess you think all charismatics here (esp those who speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick, laugh in the spirit etc) are children of the devil, all sadly deceived.

*LOL*

laugh in the spirit? biblically where does that come from? I am curiious on average during a service at your church how many people speak in tongues at a time?

 

[ydouxist]

I went to a Rodney Howard Brown meeting in 1995 expecting to laugh.

But only chuckled a few times. I was kind of disappointed.

 

[Kellentia]

laugh in the spirit? biblically where does that come from? I am curiious on average during a service at your church how many people speak in tongues at a time?

Alot.......practically everyone in fact. And there's a total membership of 9000 in our church and increasing, praise God!!!

 

[d0c markus]

Alot.......practically everyone in fact. And there's a total membership of 9000 in our church and increasing, praise God!!!

Doesnt sound very biblical, notice the apostle pauls instructions to the church.

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

1CO 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.


perhaps your church should review the biblical rules.

 

[Geoff_Conn]

You can do a search for the web site called Apologetics Index. There is information about him there.

Dale Marie

This site miss treats some pastors and Groups. Though the articles on Benny are pritty clear.

What can I say in 2 words?

False Prophet. His so-called Prophetic words are outrageous and never com to pass.

But I'am kind of mixed about the man. Cause people like Steve Hill and Perry Stone endorse him.

All I can say is his teachings are not for me, and clearly he hasn't any Prophectic gifts.

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

Whao, tyreth, you seem very bitter and angry.

And why shouldn't I be angry? this man is deceiving so many Christians, blaspheming against God, teaching heresy, and building up their faith on lies which can only do damage when revealed. I believe my response of anger is scriptural and completely in line with the character of God as revealed in the Bible. You can see clearly in Jesus' life how He dealt with those who were considered representatives of true religion (pharisees, sadducees, scribes, etc) compared with those outside. I have every right and responsibility to be angry at those who do all the things that Benny Hinn do, and who refuse to repent fully.

And you say you are convinced that the charismatic movt is not from God. So who is it from then? The devil? So I guess you think all charismatics here (esp those who speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick, laugh in the spirit etc) are children of the devil, all sadly deceived.

*LOL*

First of all, when arguing, do not contemplate a premise you know may not be true ("So who is it from then? The devil?"), then draw a conclusion ("so I guess you think all charismatics here are children of the devil"), and act as if you made a rational argument. First establish the premise by allowing me to answer, and then draw your conclusions.

My personal view is that the charismatic movement is, by and large, not from God. And having been not from God does not necessarily mean that it is bad - but in this case i think the charismatic movement is bad, and dangerous. I think as Jonathan Edwards does (and I quoted earlier in this thread), such a movement as this one opens up the door for Satan to set himself up as the oracle for the church.

I think most of the time when people receive a Scripture that comes to mind, or when a message comes to them, or when they have a dream, that it is a product of their imagination. People in general do not understand the power of manipulation, how easy it is to fool someone of a false reality. For example, consider cold reading - a skilled fake can convince people he is speaking to the dead when in fact he invents everything. And sometimes such inventions can seem impossible to have known except by divine inspiration. I watched someone on TV duplicate a session much like that liar John Edward in "Crossing Over". The man duplicating such a session spoke to a woman and said to her that he saw (from the dead person he claimed to be communicating with) a calendar on the wall, but the calendar was out of date. The woman began crying and said that the person he was supposedly communicating with had given her a calendar which was hanging on the wall, but was out of date. Such a prediction sounded amazing and beyond mortal knowledge. The man doing the duplication then explained all (there were other 'amazing' insights also, but this one I remember). He was a member of the skeptics society and was demonstrating a method called cold reading. he said he had in his mind a list of 15 or so (i can't recall) images/concepts that are common to most people. An out of date calendar on the wall was one such thing. He took a stab at it, and she pulled on it and felt like he'd had an amazing insight.
I fully believe it is possible to master techniques such as cold reading and be fully persuaded that you are speaking God's words. Sometimes I get amazing insights into a person's character with very little information - I could easily delude myself to think that it was God giving me a revelation, but if I contemplate on it, I can see the clues that are already there that would reveal it to me.

People also don't realise how powerful our memory is. I fully believe all of us have a photographic memory, but have failed to master it for various reasons I won't go into now. All that information is locked away. Now let us say I am reading through my Bible and am having trouble. I may be fully persuaded God reveals Scriptures, so my subconscious mind recals a Scripture I have only heretofore glanced at. it then draws my attention to it and I think "wow, that's so relevant". Such is not beyond the power of our mind.

I could go on with many more stories, but I will say this - those who claim to have such insights from God fail on me. They speak to those around me what seems to be amazing insights, but for some reason "god" seems to lose his ability to understand his subjects when it comes to me. I don't reveal myself well in my actions and facial expressions. I have an enigmatic look about myself. I don't know why I have made myself this way, but people simply can't get an understanding of me based on the same amount of body language as with others. And that is the reason, I believe, why these charismatic "prophecies"/insights fail with me - their cold reading techniques fail on me whereas they are successful with others. If God was truly speaking through them, He would know what to say to me. These people said nothing - I felt like they were talking to a stranger, another man.

I could go on for hours typing the reasons why I think the charismatic movement is not a movement from God. This is not the topic of the thread, but I think it's worth mentioning. One thing is certain - Benny Hinn should be cast out of the church until he repents, and even afterwards not allowed to preach until he has well and truly been taught the fundamentals of our faith.

 

[d0c markus]

Last i knew jonathan edwards is not christian. But i could be mistaken, and if he claims to be he is a liar, it is a sin to communicate with the dead its impossible. Do you think that all charismatics believe in stuff like that? You said you came out of a charismatic church, and i can see why if this is what everyone was doing. whats your story if you dont mind telling it to us in a nutshell?

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

Last i knew jonathan edwards is not christian. But i could be mistaken, and if he claims to be he is a liar, it is a sin to communicate with the dead its impossible. Do you think that all charismatics believe in stuff like that?

John Edward (http://www.johnedward.net/) is a different man from Jonathan Edwards (http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/). Jonathan Edwards is a great figure in most Christian circles, including charismatics. He too believes the gifts are no longer in place - it is amusing to hear those from TACF (Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship) say that God has chosen him (Jonathan) as the mascot theologian for their 'revival' when Edwards himself wrote in opposition to the very things that 'revival' teaches.

Edwards, like many in history, see the gifts as having ceased. While I do not eliminate miracles entirely for our day and age, I think they are very rare things indeed. As I read once, for the time Jesus fed the 5000, millions more had to cook their meals at home. Miracles are a rare thing, and they point to Christ. There is too much nonsense in the charismatic movement - things that are seen as miracles from God but are in fact inventions of the mind, or worse, trickery from evil spirits. True miracles are rare...comparitively speaking. We have all we need to live lives as witnesses of God in the Scripture without needing to witness a single miracle.

You said you came out of a charismatic church, and i can see why if this is what everyone was doing. whats your story if you dont mind telling it to us in a nutshell?

Sorry, it's not one story, it was a journey of learning over years. I found so many problems, so many lies, so much deceit. It would take hours of talking, and days of typing, for me to relate all I have learned. So instead I share what seems directly relevant to the story at hand, such as what I have in this thread, rather than the fulness of my discoveries. I used to think like a charismatic, but not anymore.

It was nothing to do with speaking to the dead. Everything to do with emotions confused as God's spirit, and basically a deception and enslaving of the mind without appeal to reason. I am now a glad member of the reformed church, and I feel as though I am where I belong.

 

[endure]

i know im not anybody but i hope you great people of God remember one thing.

titus 2.2-3
...speak evil of no man...but be gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
FOR WE OURSELVES ALSO WERE SOMETIMES FOOLISH. DISOBEDIENT. DECIEVED, SERVING DIVERSE LUSTS...

it doesnt matter how right you are, no one on this earth has the right to deal with him in a harsh way, no matter how wrong he is. becuase everyone of us, were once the very same way, and it was grace alone that made us any diffrent.
nobody has the right to speak evil of benny hinn.


tyreth you said

And why shouldn't I be angry?

becuase it has nothing at all, to do with you...
God will deal with him.
you are commanded to be meek, and love that man.
what happens to you through benny, is only what is supposed to happen as we were sinners and living in a sinful world. it should be no surprise or reason to be angry. i mean... without grace, you really do deserve to be lied to, ya know?

do your really care about him and want to make a diffrence in his life and restore him to the truth for his sake?
if that isnt the only desire you have for him, you are not worthy to say anything about him or to him. no one is.

you correct people becuase you love them and care for them, too much to see them wrong, not becuase theyre wrong.
and if it is love, you wont speak evil or fight about it.

do you really want to make a diffrence?

jude 1.22
...have compassion, making a diffrence:

compassion makes a diffrence, not truth.
people dont care what you know, untill they know you care.
and if you dont care enough about them stop the talking and just love on them instead, if you cant stand to do that... then you dont have the right to say anything to them.
becuase without love, your just sounding brass...
your called to be a sheperd to the flock, that is an individual who does nothing but love and watchover the sheep, out of love.
they were the outcasts of the society actually, but they were willing to be that way, to watch over the sheep.... love.

you really need to be careful what you say.

my mom told me this...
jim baker...jimmy swagert both sinned ( i think i spelled it right)
i think jim baker fell into sin first, and then jimmy ridiculed him openly and harshly and said he was a cancer to the church... and it wasnt long before Jimmy was in the same mess and even worse.
you need to be careful.

would you be willing to just spend a week on your face before God crying out for this mans soul? go on a fast just for benny hinn... spend an hour in prayer, just for benny hinn, not so hell be found out, but so that hell be changed and not shown to the world...
will you do that? do you care enough, about HIM, and not that HE DID?
i hope so, or you shouldnt be saying anything.

 

[endure]

proverbs 13.10

only by pride cometh contention...

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

i know im not anybody but i hope you great people of God remember one thing.

titus 2.2-3
...speak evil of no man...but be gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
FOR WE OURSELVES ALSO WERE SOMETIMES FOOLISH. DISOBEDIENT. DECIEVED, SERVING DIVERSE LUSTS...

Since I speak no lies or slander regarding him, I fail to see how I am speaking evil of Benny Hinn. Or are you suggesting that Christians are never permitted to point out the faults of others? The word here in the original greek was "blasphemy" in English (the greek word sounding pretty much the same). It's more slanderous comments that injure a person's good name. I do nothing to Benny Hinn that is false. If you can show me where I have, then I will repent.

it doesnt matter how right you are, no one on this earth has the right to deal with him in a harsh way, no matter how wrong he is. becuase everyone of us, were once the very same way, and it was grace alone that made us any diffrent.

The Scriptures teach otherwise:
"And I, brethre, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!" Galations 5:11-12. Or in the NIV "Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! "
Does this sound like the sort of things that you consider "speak no evil"?
We also have the example of our Lord with sayings like "brood of vipers!" (Matt 12:34)

And, as I've said earlier in this thread, we are to judge those who are called our brothers.

nobody has the right to speak evil of benny hinn.

I speak no evil, but only the truth so far as I know it.

becuase it has nothing at all, to do with you...
God will deal with him.

Since when was the deception of my brethren nothing to do with me?
1 Corinthians 5:12-13:
"For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore 'put away from yourselves the evil person'."
Therefore, I have every duty to deal with Benny Hinn, because he is seen as inside our church.
C. S. Lewis said:
"To be ignorant and simple now - not to be able to meet the enemies on their own ground - would be to throw down our weapons, and to betray our uneducated brethren who have, under God, no defence but us against the intellectual attacks of the heathen." - C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1949), p. 50
While not speaking about the same thing, I believe the general principle is true - that if I can stand up to defend other brethren against the lies of this wolf, then I must, lest no-one else does.

you are commanded to be meek, and love that man.
what happens to you through benny, is only what is supposed to happen as we were sinners and living in a sinful world. it should be no surprise or reason to be angry. i mean... without grace, you really do deserve to be lied to, ya know?

But I have grace, and I have a duty like all of us to defend others from those who would preach such rampant lies unrepentantly.

do your really care about him and want to make a diffrence in his life and restore him to the truth for his sake?
if that isnt the only desire you have for him, you are not worthy to say anything about him or to him. no one is.

I care about those he lies to, and wish that he himself would be cast from the church until he repents.

compassion makes a diffrence, not truth.

Completely innaccurate. Compassion motivates us to action, and truth gives us the weapons to fight against those who cause our Lord's sheep to go astray. When was truth ever disregarded in the Bible? What about girding your waist with truth? (Ephesians 6:14)
I have compassion for those who Benny Hinn is deceiving, and it is them for who my heart burns, not for just Benny Hinn, which leads me to your bit about fasting soon...

my mom told me this...
jim baker...jimmy swagert both sinned ( i think i spelled it right)
i think jim baker fell into sin first, and then jimmy ridiculed him openly and harshly and said he was a cancer to the church... and it wasnt long before Jimmy was in the same mess and even worse.
you need to be careful.

You believe in karma, do you? Besides, I do not believe I would be punished for doing what the Scriptures command us to.

would you be willing to just spend a week on your face before God crying out for this mans soul? go on a fast just for benny hinn... spend an hour in prayer, just for benny hinn, not so hell be found out, but so that hell be changed and not shown to the world...
will you do that? do you care enough, about HIM, and not that HE DID?
i hope so, or you shouldnt be saying anything.

No, why should I fast for him, and not one of those who was destroyed by his mass deception? It is them my heart burns for, not Benny Hinn. He has been given ample warning by our brethren, and now it is time for us to cast him from the church until he repents (1 Corinthians 5:4-5, refers to a specific case of sexual immorality, but the principle remains I believe). And then accept his return (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).

 

[endure]

the point is your no better than he is, so keep a good watch on your heart and watch what you say, you dont have the right to do anything but love him, and if you love him it will show forth in what you do and say.
i wont debate with you and reply to everything you said but you said one thing that i want to reply to.

you said.

No, why should I fast for him, and not one of those who was destroyed by his mass deception? It is them my heart burns for, not Benny Hinn.

your heart doesnt burn for benny....? last i read were supposed to love even our enemies, and if you love him it will burn becuase you know what hes in for.
why doesnt it burn for benny? becuase he has been warned already?
im glad warnings wasnt all you received or you certainly wouldnt be saved.

or is him being warned already simply an excuse for you to not need to love and care for him like your commanded to?
or is this simply a stage to gain a crowd to see how intelligent you are?

in romans 9 paul said he wished he himself could be accursed, if it would save his jewish brothers who would not turn to Jesus.
paul was willing to die and go to hell himself and not know Christ, if it would save those people who hated and would not turn to Jesus. yeah they were wrong, but he loved to much to really care.
he was exceedingly sorrowful.

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

the point is your no better than he is, so keep a good watch on your heart and watch what you say, you dont have the right to do anything but love him, and if you love him it will show forth in what you do and say.

Where is the love you see in Paul's words when he said he wishes that they would emasculate themselves? I want you to clear up this contradiction.

your heart doesnt burn for benny....? last i read were supposed to love even our enemies, and if you love him it will burn becuase you know what hes in for.
why doesnt it burn for benny? becuase he has been warned already?
im glad warnings wasnt all you received or you certainly wouldnt be saved.

Again, I call you to the words of Christ to those who were the religious leaders of the day, "brood of vipers". Did Jesus' heart burn for them? How are my words any different?
My anger for Benny Hinn and his deception is strong, but it does not mean I would not love him to be saved. But my priority is to stop his deception and lies in the church. Again, clear up the contradiction, because I am mimicking Christ. Benny Hinn is not my enemy, but he has wronged many of my brethren, and for them I zealously intervene. If it was just me he had lied to, and he wanted forgiveness, then I would freely give it in a moment.

or is him being warned already simply an excuse for you to not need to love and care for him like your commanded to?
or is this simply a stage to gain a crowd to see how intelligent you are?

Why do people always seem to think that we must always love? King David, under inspiration of the Spirit said:
"Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men. For they speak against You wickedly; Your enemies take Your name in vain. Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies" - Psalm 139:19-22. And I point you again to the words of Paul and Jesus which to me reflect that angry zealousness for the purity of the gospel. While I desire to see Benny Hinn saved, my focus is to see him taken from the pulpit. I intervene on behalf of those he lies to.

If I was to never say a word to another about Benny Hinn, I should still feel anger at his deception. It's nothing to do with my desire to prove how clever I am. Why does it have to be that? I feel love and compassion for the sheep, and a zealousness against the wolves. I do not see love only preached. Our God is a jealous, vengeful, angry, righteous, loving, merciful, graceful, joyful God.

in romans 9 paul said he wished he himself could be accursed, if it would save his jewish brothers who would not turn to Jesus.
paul was willing to die and go to hell himself and not know Christ, if it would save those people who hated and would not turn to Jesus. yeah they were wrong, but he loved to much to really care.
he was exceedingly sorrowful.

Yes, Paul was very selfless. I don't see how his Jewish brothers are anything like Benny Hinn.

 

[endure]

maybe you will understand everything when you understand a few more things.

i simply reiterate what ive already said

titus 3.2
to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

2 timothy 2.24-25
and the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance do the acknowledgement of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are take captive by him at his will.

we are called to be gentle, not quarrelers or fighters.
God does have a side of wrath, but vengeance is his, and its not our place.

i dont know everything, and i cant explain everything we read of people doing... all i know is what he told me to do, and that is to love, speak evil of no one, rail against no one, seek that mans restoration and be meek and gentle, not a fighter.

we are not to say bad things about him, we must be very careful what we say take great heed that we only seek to speak truth for the sake of truth and not out of anger, the bible says our wrath does not accomplish the will of God.

ephesians 4.29, 31
let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good for the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice.

no, you shouldnt be angry.

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

the point is your no better than he is, so keep a good watch on your heart and watch what you say, you dont have the right to do anything but love him, and if you love him it will show forth in what you do and say.

I should also mention on this I showed verses above already which describe how we should both judge our brethren, and cast out those who remain unrepentant until they repent. Without His grace I could have walked the same path as Benny Hinn, but this does not excuse me from following the other commands of our Lord.

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

maybe you will understand everything when you understand a few more things.

i simply reiterate what ive already said

titus 3.2
to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Why can't you address what I said above? The Bible says that God commits evil. Do we take that as it's plain meaning? Of course not! When we look up the hebrew word, we learn that it also means damage, destruction. God does no evil, but the word was interpreted so. You must understand the language, and understand one Scripture in light of another. And so, yet again, I point you to Christ's words, "Brood of vipers!". Did He speak evil of another man? Did He transgress the moral lifestyle which Paul later laid down for us?

2 timothy 2.24-25
and the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance do the acknowledgement of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are take captive by him at his will.

This is precisely what I see myself doing here. I do not condemn the people reading this thread, and in fact I am now defending myself against attacks. I cannot speak to Benny Hinn, I could probably not get within a kilometer of him unless I was willing to part with hundreds of dollars. So then, how can I be gentle to him, and teach him with patience and meekness? But again you ignore what I said. My words are no different, I see, from things that Paul, Christ, David and others have said of false teachers. This Scripture is about those who are not saved, who are outside. You have said nothing of Paul's words that we are to judge those who are inside, but those who are outside are for God to judge.

we are called to be gentle, not quarrelers or fighters.
God does have a side of wrath, but vengeance is his, and its not our place.

It also says that Paul reasoned with people:
"Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, 'This is Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.' And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas." Acts 17:2-4
Also read Acts 17:17-31, 18:4 "And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks", 19:8 "And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God."
Paul used persuasion, debate, to show people the truth of the Gospel. This is not quarreling, but is no more than we are doing here - discussing from the Scriptures, giving reason why Benny Hinn is a false prophet and should be cast from the church. If you disagree with me from Scripture, then that is what we should discuss.
As for vengeance being Gods and not ours, read again 1 Corinthians 5:12-13:
"For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore, 'put away from yourselves the evil person.'"

i dont know everything, and i cant explain everything we read of people doing... all i know is what he told me to do, and that is to love, speak evil of no one, rail against no one, seek that mans restoration and be meek and gentle, not a fighter.

This again does not fit with the entire reading of Scripture. I agree with you perfectly that we should reason with gentleness, but like Paul I believe once that fails we have a different duty. Jesus gave instructions for three steps with talking with a brother (Matt. 18:15-20), and Paul as I have said above talked about casting some from the Church for a time. Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees a brood of vipers, which distinctly lacks gentleness and meekness, and Paul expressed his wish that certain men would emasculate themselves. There is a time for meekness and gentless, and there is a time for zealousness to defend our brothers and sisters.

we are not to say bad things about him, we must be very careful what we say take great heed that we only seek to speak truth for the sake of truth and not out of anger, the bible says our wrath does not accomplish the will of God.

What bad things have I said? Is it a bad thing for me to speak the truth about him? If I say he is a false prophet, because he IS a false prophet, is that saying a bad thing in your view? Such words, and far more powerful ones, are used in Scripture over and over.

ephesians 4.29, 31
let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good for the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice.

no, you shouldnt be angry.[/QUOTE]
You must present me with a worldview that takes into account the Scriptures that very clearly teach an acknowledgement of anger as a good thing, because they are numerous. I am sure I could collect one hundred or more such Scriptures, both from the Old and New Testament, as I have already presented a small collection.

As with John Calvin, I believe this verse speaks of fits of rage without justice, as those which are seen in violent men without self-control or discipline, who let rage rule them. When I lie my head down at night, I praise God. Throughout the day I see myself ruled by calmness and self control. I subjugate my anger at these injustices under His rule. My life is in no way ruled by rage. It was prophesied of the Messiah that no violence would be found in Him, yet in the temple He wielded a whip against the money lenders. Do we then say the prophecy was false? No, but rather He was found with no violence as that by a man ruled by injust rage, but rather His anger was controlled, just, righteous, directed in a worthy and sinless manner.

Here are the words of Calvin, which describe better than I my thoughts:

31. Let all bitterness. He again condemns anger; but, on the present occasion, views in connection with it those offenses by which it is usually accompanied, such as noisy disputes and reproaches. Between wrath and anger (Qumo<n kai< ojrgh<n) there is little difference, except that the former denotes the power, and the latter the act; but here, the only difference is, that anger is a more sudden attack. The correction of all the rest will be greatly aided by the removal of malice. By this term he expresses that depravity of mind which is opposed to humanity and justice, and which is usually called malignity.

From http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol41/htm/iv.v.viii.htm

Ah, I just discovered a more excellent discourse by Calvin in reference to Paul's wish that certain men would emasculate themselves, which summarises better than I what it is I suspect to be true:

12. Would that they were even cut off. His indignation proceeds still farther, and he prays for destruction on those impostors by whom the Galatians had been deceived. The word, "cut off," appears to be employed in allusion to the circumcision which they pressed. "They tear the church for the sake of circumcision: I wish they were entirely cut off." Chrysostom favors this opinion. But how can such an imprecation be reconciled with the mildness of an apostle, who ought to wish that all should be saved, and that not a single person should perish? So far as men are concerned, I admit the force of this argument; for it is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world. But devout minds are sometimes carried beyond the consideration of men, and led to fix their eye on the glory of God, and the kingdom of Christ. The glory of God, which is in itself more excellent than the salvation of men, ought to receive from us a higher degree of esteem and regard. Believers earnestly desirous that the glory of God should be promoted, forget men, and forget the world, and would rather choose that the whole world should perish, than that the smallest portion of the glory of God should be withdrawn.

Let us remember, however, that such a prayer as this proceeds from leaving men wholly out of view, and fixing our attention on God alone. Paul cannot be accused of cruelty, as if he were opposed to the law of love. Besides, if a single man or a few persons be brought into comparison, how immensely must the church preponderate! It is a cruel kind of mercy which prefers a single man to the whole church. "On one side, I see the flock of God in danger; on the other, I see a wolf "seeking," like Satan, "whom he may devour." (1 Peter 5:8.) Ought not my care of the church to swallow up all my thoughts, and lead me to desire that its salvation should be purchased by the destruction of the wolf? And yet I would not wish that a single individual should perish in this way; but my love of the church and my anxiety about her interests carry me away into a sort of ecstasy, so that I can think of nothing else." With such zeal as this, every true pastor of the church will burn. The Greek word translated "who trouble you," signifies to remove from a certain rank or station. By using the word kai<, even, he expresses more strongly his desire that the impostors should not merely be degraded, but entirely separated and cut off. 3

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol41/htm/iii.vii.ii.htm


Please forgive me if you feel that I am attacking you - I feel no anger or ill will towards you at all, nothing but a desire for discussion and reasoning, that we both may learn more, and that if I am right hopefully a man such as Benny Hinn may find no support to deceive our brothers and sisters.

 

[endure]

tyreth
oh no problem...
dont feel like you need to say sorry, im fine.

why cant i address what you said?
i did actually in a round about way, but im not going to get drawn into a debate or pointless discussion.
which me taking the hours to go and divide the truth and get detailed about every little subject you spoke of, would have done.

you asked

So then, how can I be gentle to him, and teach him with patience and meekness?

take a season of silence and pray and fast for him instead. thats true sacrifice of yourself for him.

i understand the time to stand for the truth and for people, but that doesnt mean your view of benny changes, whether he is cast out or not, doesnt change that God still seeks benny's restoration above all things in his life, and we can be no diffrent.

the magority of our conversation shouldnt be giving the many reasons hes wrong and the many rights we have to expell him whether we do or not, but rather seeking the restoration of him and the doing away with the sins for peoples sake and his sake too.


titus 3.2
to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

i dont believe your following this verse, there is a way to do what must be done, but this must be done as well.

im not saying to ignore sin or let people be destroyed, yet you have to restrain your actions by not allowing your mouth to rail agaisnt anyone or speak evil or harmful or hateful or angry things out of the anger in you rather than the love for people in you, there is a diffrence between humbly expressing the truth of a matter in the light that we are no better, and shouting on the house tops his wrong and what he did and what must be done.
ive never heard anyone say this....
"hes wrong...but i hope he changes and comes back to the Lord and the truth, and im there for him if he needs help, im praying for him im fasting for him and im beleiving hell repent and be saved without needing to be judged becuase thats what i hope to see."
and it should be being said if hes wrong.
that is how things need to be said.

and if he is cast from the church, our hearts ought to be exceeding sorrowful for those who we know are in rebbellion and running from the truth. being willing to go to hell in their place, if it will save them.

it just really changes how we speak of fallen brothers, working for restoration, and not judgement.
and yes that restoration means the others hes hurt also, but also he himself too.

he needs to be restored i want him to be restored, and that hasnt been the subject of your convesation at all as far as ive read. or anyone's ever actually, as far as people who really believe hes wrong that i have met.


Godbless.

 

[CJF]

Whereas I am unafraid to speak against him. Better I reach two men with the truth than a thousand with a lie.

Benny Hinn reaches so many people with the message of salvation, the message that you believe, and people are getting saved by the thousands.

Such prophecies do not breed growth in Christ. They destroy people's growth and hold them back from the deeper, richer mysteries of God's grace. So many Christians today care little for understanding, are anti-intellectual, and I believe prophecies and the charismatic movement are much to blame. Maybe the charismatic movement is a cause, maybe it is a symptom, I don't know. Yet you should not be afraid of him. I have not seen or heard of a true prophet of God since the early Christian church, yet there may be one. But having seen so many liars, I am not expecting to see one either. I need one who speaks only truth.


Well, as someone pointed out recently, Benny Hinn amusingly prophecied homosexuals being burned in 1994-95, but that failed to happen. When a prophecy is so specific, it's hard not to notice when it fails.


There are a great deal of quotes and analsysis of Benny Hinn's words, straight from the horses mouth. If you search google for "benny hinn" you will find ample information. This is not about gossip - it's about protecting our brothers and sisters in Christ from lies that will hamper growth and give Satan a chance to be an oracle to our brethren.

Are you God? Can you look into people's hearts? No. You're human, just like the rest of us. And a human is NOT perfect. We can never be perfect. It's in our nature to mess up. I've messed up so much, I almost hate myself for it. You've made mistakes in your life too. We all have. So how are you to know wether Benny Hinn is a Christian or not? He's impacted so many lives in a possetive way and he's reached so many people all over the world with the message of salvation.

Jonathan Edwards condemned this idea as mischievous 'that it is God's manner in these days, to guide his saints, at least some that are more eminent, by inspiration, or immediate revelation. They suppose he makes known to them what shall come to pass hereafter, or what it is his will that they should do, by impressions made upon their minds, either with or without texts of Scripture: whereby something is made known to them that is not taught in the Scripture. By such a notion the devil has a great door opened for him and if once this opinion
should come to be fully yielded to, and established in the church of God, Satan would have opportunity thereby to set up himself as the guide and oracle of God's people...' (Jonathan Edwards, Thoughts on the Revival, Works IV.II, p.404)

And that is why we should stand against men like Benny Hinn. And not just him, but these false prophets are in many of our churches, deceiving, and they think that they speak the mind of God!

Just because a person takes a verse out of context, and maybe says something that goes against what the Bible teaches, doesn't make them a false prophet. I used to go to a church where they didn't believe in showing emotion, they dind't believe in ANY of the Spiritual gifts(such as tounges, prophecy, deliverance, miracles, interpretation of tounges, etc.), and that's not what the Bible teaches. But that doesn't mean they're all false prophets. It only means that they've made a mistake and it's our job, as their brothers and sisters in Christ, to show them what they've done wrong.