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RDKirk

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Knowledge is a kind of belief.

Knowledge is "a kind of" belief, but I'll requite Inkfingers on this:


As scripture handles the term pisteou, it means commitment...which is a word that once meant much more than it means today.

My wife and I watched the new "Magnificent 7" over the weekend, and the moment of pisteou occurred when each of the men passed up their last opportunity to run away from the coming conflict. In the book of Daniel, the three Hebrews Meshach, Sharach, and Abednego reach their moment of pisteou when the king threatens them with the furnace and their answer is, "God could save us, but even if He doesn't, we won't bow to you."

Or like the old quip about the ham and eggs breakfast: The chicken was involved, but the pig was committed.

So it's very much possible for someone to have a knowledge of God--that He exists, and maybe even some passing involvement--without being committed to Him and His cause.
 
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zippy2006

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If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

Some Christians know Jesus from a personal encounter, and some believe in him without knowing in that way. Similarly, you believe in Michael Jordan even though you do not know him, and your belief is rational. You also might believe in Einstein and his theories without knowing him or being able to demonstrate the theories. That's a kind of faith.

How can one believe something they know?

If faith is understood as believing without seeing, then knowledge technically precludes faith. Yet often the case arises where someone sees something--perhaps Einstein's theories--and yet would still believe if they had not seen. So you can believe something with reference to the authorities and evidence, and at the same time know the thing in reference to the object itself.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Nobody can truly "know" or have "knowledge" of God until they come to be in his friendship and likeness... The saints "know" God.

...We are ALL called to be saints.
 
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Inkfingers

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it's very much possible for someone to have a knowledge of God--that He exists, and maybe even some passing involvement--without being committed to Him and His cause.

That being the difference between the 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish ones...

And I suspect that we all may be a little complacent over which of them we each are.
 
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BryanMaloney

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What is "knowing"? The field of answering that question is called "epistemology". There is no consensus within that field regarding what constitutes "knowing". Is it merely certainty? But what is certainty? How would that differ from certitude? Then again, how would either differ merely from what is called "correct opinion" (where one achieves a correct outcome/prediction but actually only did so by random coincidence not at all related to ones reasoning)?

Then, once one has "knowing" how does one verify? How does one know that one knows?

Then, once one has "knowing that one knows", how does one actually transmit the "knowing" to another?
 
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believeume

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Experience does matter, but real experience. Not stuff you make up in your head and put on your resume.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I just looked at 'pisteou' in the Greek a few days ago for another thread and it is a verb. To state your belief, knowing, understanding, ect.

It is the verb part of believe or belief. A statement. Like 'I believe'. 'I know'.
 
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believeume

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I would say when a mother intuitively senses her baby's need, that sense is emotional.
 
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Cappadocious

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Our OP claimed to be into the classical def's of belief and knowledge, which are different from this. What you're referring to is classically known as faith, which includes a belief; but also includes other things like an attitude towards that belief, plus (I'd say) some additional minimal action, etc.
 
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tatteredsoul

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If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

Belief and knowledge are two different sides of the same coin. There was a time I knew God existed, but didn't believe in Him. Contrarily, there were times when I believed in God, but didn't know Him.

I think belief is harder than knowing, because knowing feeds the ego - tricking the brain into thinking you have drawn a conclusion based on your own power. Belief, however, requires trust - something outside the ego - and that is usually a struggle.

I was not satisfied knowing God, and not believing. I was more satisfied coming to trust Him without knowing every intricate detail.
 
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believeume

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Yeah that's running loops in my head, I think I'll leave those ideas for later examination.
 
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Landon Caeli

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I would say when a mother intuitively senses her baby's need, that sense is emotional.

Yes, emotion is something unique to those made in Gods likeness... For instance, a dog cannot understand justice, because that would require a God given grace that only humans have.
 
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believeume

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No I'm not saying that, but what you said about not interacting with Jesus physically concerns me.

I mean all we are is skin and bones and the spark if life, but....forget about it....
 
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RDKirk

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If by "classical" you're referring to such terms as understood and used by the pre-Christian Greek philosophers of epistemology, I'd say, yes, they are different. Those differences should be acknowledged and understood, and then for Christian discussion, clearly separated from what they mean in the scriptural context (the same is true, for instance, for "free will").

I would disagree that "believe" in the scriptural sense is the same thing as scripture defines "faith." Scripturally, faith is a real material property upon which scriptural belief (commitment) is based.

Scripturally, faith is not something to believe in, faith is a real substance--perceivable reality-- that is the foundation of belief in something unperceivable.
 
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Church2u2

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Hi.Well how it worked for me is that I believed that Jesus died for my sins but I got to know Him through reading my Bible and then I began to accept Him as my personal savior and it also brought home how He suffered for my sins when I saw that movie Passion of the Christ.Before the movie I couldn't visualize what it was like for Jesus to be beaten and reviled. Of course it was probably a lot worse in real life.
 
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believeume

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That's real interesting because you get told to go to church to learn about God, study the bible with other Christians to learn about God, spread the good word to teach others about God. But then we get back to this stuff, where the holy spirit is paramount to learning about God and then why do you need the other stuff.
 
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believeume

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I'll have to believe that, wink.
 
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believeume

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Well if the gospels are evidence of Jesus and his resurrection, then it's something you'd know.
 
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