Believe into... In a biblical scripture context.

[Above & Beyond]

Hi,

Not sure if this is the proper forum for this topic... Please let me know if it isn't.

For some years now I have been clear that the Greek word, "...eis..." (a transliteration), has been commonly translated into English as in... Such as in the following biblical scripture verse...

John 3:16... "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Here, "...that whosoever believeth in him..." is where we find the use of the Greek word "...eis..." is translated as "...in...".

Good... But the thing is... The word for "...in..." in Greek is "...en..." (a transliteration), not "...eis...", which means into.

From Strong's Concordance... "εἰς eis, ice; a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:—(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), …ward, (where-)fore, with."

And from Thayer's Lexicon... "εἰς, a preposition governing the accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among. It is used: A. Properly I. of place, after verbs of going, coming, sailing, flying, falling, living, leading, carrying, throwing, sending, etc.; 1. of a place entered, or of entrance into a place, into; and a. it stands before nouns designating an open place, a hollow thing, or one in which an object can be hidden: as εἰς (τήν) πόλιν, Matthew 26:18;.

In the New Testament we find the phrase "...in Christ..." is used 77 times to indicate the position of a believer spiritually... Meaning... Born-again of God believers are positionally "...in Christ...".

And further... Colossians 1:13 tells us... "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:...".

The Greek word translated into English as "...translated...", is "...methistēmi..." (a transliteration), and means "...to transpose, transfer, remove from one place to another of change of situation or place..." (Strong's Concordance), and "...1 aorist μετέστησα; 1 aorist passive subjunctive μετασταθῶ; from Homer down; properly, to transpose, transfer, remote from one place to another: properly, of change of situation or place, ὄρη...".

Colossians 1:13 is telling us what happens when we believe "...in..." Christ Jesus and are born-again of God... And so a born-again person is "...translated..." out of darkness, "...into the kingdom of his dear Son..."... This Son being Christ Jesus.

And the Greek word that is translated as "...into..." is "...eis...", the same Greek word that is used in the manuscripts that translations are taken from... But in John 3:16, it is translated as "...in...".

I realize that in a practical human context, meaning in the physical human realm, a person cannot believe "...into..." another person... I got that... But in this context, it is not speaking about a practical physical human realm... It is speaking about a spiritual realm.

My question therefore is... Based on the related context of a born-again believer, having been "...transferred..." out of darkness "...into the kingdom of his dear Son..."... And being "...in Christ..."... And that the Greek word actually used in the manuscripts used for translations is "...eis..." which means into... Should the word "...in..." be used in Bible translations?

I look forward to any replies.

 

[bling]

Going way back in my memory of Greek preposition it is extremely hard to know how these very common word were used at a particular time and place. We just do not know and thus say the word could mean either in or into and we look to the context.

 

[Above & Beyond]

Going way back in my memory of Greek preposition it is extremely hard to know how these very common word were used at a particular time and place. We just do not know and thus say the word could mean either in or into and we look to the context.

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, just saying that the word could mean either "...in..." or "...into..." isn't really good enough, as in application they mean two different things... Unless we give "...in..." a definition of "...into...".

To believe "...in..." something, when considered in a common way would mean just believing something... Like "...I believe it will rain..."... Which is definitely not believing "...into..." the rain... Although, it might be your believing "...into..." the reasoning that has led you to believe it will rain.

The key here is that the Greek word "...eis..." is a verb that defines movement... Whereas, in, according to its proper grammatical use, defines a static position (meaning, no movement).

So yes, I agree about needing to know the context... Which is why I provided the scripture verse.

And this ambiguity can lead to a poor understanding of what the essence of God's salvation of man is... As it may cause someone to think that it is their believing in Christ alone that saves them (a type of self works)... When the truth of the matter is that it is their being brought "...into..." Christ that saves us... Which only God can do.

Amen.

 

[bling]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, just saying that the word could mean either "...in..." or "...into..." isn't really good enough, as in application they mean two different things... Unless we give "...in..." a definition of "...into...".

To believe "...in..." something, when considered in a common way would mean just believing something... Like "...I believe it will rain..."... Which is definitely not believing "...into..." the rain... Although, it might be your believing "...into..." the reasoning that has led you to believe it will rain.

The key here is that the Greek word "...eis..." is a verb that defines movement... Whereas, in, according to its proper grammatical use, defines a static position (meaning, no movement).

So yes, I agree about needing to know the context... Which is why I provided the scripture verse.

And this ambiguity can lead to a poor understanding of what the essence of God's salvation of man is... As it may cause someone to think that it is their believing in Christ alone that saves them (a type of self works)... When the truth of the matter is that it is their being brought "...into..." Christ that saves us... Which only God can do.

Amen.

The Greek word has both the meaning in and into. The translators are the ones making the choice of the best English word. You do not like which word the English translators chose, which is fine. The inspired author might have helped by using other Greek words with less ambiguity.
The point is, you cannot say the Greek word means into, when it can also mean in, just because there is another Greek word for in.
I do not like how the translators translated many Greek word which have different meanings, but all I can do is point out the alternative English word and why that might be a better choice for the Greek word, but I do not say the translators were flat out wrong.

 

[notworthconsideration]

Hi,

Not sure if this is the proper forum for this topic... Please let me know if it isn't.

For some years now I have been clear that the Greek word, "...eis..." (a transliteration), has been commonly translated into English as in... Such as in the following biblical scripture verse...

John 3:16... "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Here, "...that whosoever believeth in him..." is where we find the use of the Greek word "...eis..." is translated as "...in...".

Good... But the thing is... The word for "...in..." in Greek is "...en..." (a transliteration), not "...eis...", which means into.

From Strong's Concordance... "εἰς eis, ice; a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:—(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), …ward, (where-)fore, with."

And from Thayer's Lexicon... "εἰς, a preposition governing the accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among. It is used: A. Properly I. of place, after verbs of going, coming, sailing, flying, falling, living, leading, carrying, throwing, sending, etc.; 1. of a place entered, or of entrance into a place, into; and a. it stands before nouns designating an open place, a hollow thing, or one in which an object can be hidden: as εἰς (τήν) πόλιν, Matthew 26:18;.

In the New Testament we find the phrase "...in Christ..." is used 77 times to indicate the position of a believer spiritually... Meaning... Born-again of God believers are positionally "...in Christ...".

And further... Colossians 1:13 tells us... "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:...".

The Greek word translated into English as "...translated...", is "...methistēmi..." (a transliteration), and means "...to transpose, transfer, remove from one place to another of change of situation or place..." (Strong's Concordance), and "...1 aorist μετέστησα; 1 aorist passive subjunctive μετασταθῶ; from Homer down; properly, to transpose, transfer, remote from one place to another: properly, of change of situation or place, ὄρη...".

Colossians 1:13 is telling us what happens when we believe "...in..." Christ Jesus and are born-again of God... And so a born-again person is "...translated..." out of darkness, "...into the kingdom of his dear Son..."... This Son being Christ Jesus.

And the Greek word that is translated as "...into..." is "...eis...", the same Greek word that is used in the manuscripts that translations are taken from... But in John 3:16, it is translated as "...in...".

I realize that in a practical human context, meaning in the physical human realm, a person cannot believe "...into..." another person... I got that... But in this context, it is not speaking about a practical physical human realm... It is speaking about a spiritual realm.

My question therefore is... Based on the related context of a born-again believer, having been "...transferred..." out of darkness "...into the kingdom of his dear Son..."... And being "...in Christ..."... And that the Greek word actually used in the manuscripts used for translations is "...eis..." which means into... Should the word "...in..." be used in Bible translations?

I look forward to any replies.

Throughout scripture, we are instructed, in various ways, to be ‘in Him.’
He is our ‘fortress.’ To be protected by a fortress, ya gotta go INSIDE. When collectively, believers request an audience with God, He surrounds them. This is ‘being in(side) the Spirit.’

 

[Above & Beyond]

The Greek word has both the meaning in and into. The translators are the ones making the choice of the best English word. You do not like which word the English translators chose, which is fine. The inspired author might have helped by using other Greek words with less ambiguity.
The point is, you cannot say the Greek word means into, when it can also mean in, just because there is another Greek word for in.
I do not like how the translators translated many Greek word which have different meanings, but all I can do is point out the alternative English word and why that might be a better choice for the Greek word, but I do not say the translators were flat out wrong.

Perhaps you can present an example of the Greek word transliterated as "...eis..." meaning both "...in..." and "...into...", as I have done some extensive research on the matter and have not found any resource that tells us this. On the contrary, everything that I have found has told us that the Greek word transliterated as "...eis...", being a verb can only define an action.

This being the case... As I said before... Unless the word "...in..." is being used incorrectly as a verb.

The word "...in..." can be used as can serve as a noun, a preposition, an adverb, and an adjective.

In John 3:16, in most translations "...in..." is used as an adverb that modifies the verb "...believes..."... As "...believes (believeth) in Him...".

The Greek word translated as "...believes/believeth..." is "...pisteuō..." (transliteration), and is a verb.

In this way of usage, the "...in..." will indicate the action that impacts the pronoun "...Him..."... As in "......believes (believeth) in Him...".

This tells us that the verb, "...believes/believeth..." must impact the object/pronoun "...Him...".

So how is this object/pronoun "...Him..." impacted by the verb/adverb phrase "..."...believes (believeth) in..."?

In the common way of thinking... It doesn't... The thought is focused on the person who is believing/believeth... With no thought given to the change that takes place within the object/pronoun "...Him...".

And therein lies the problem... People retain a poor, improper view/understanding of what actually takes place when a person believes "...in..." Christ Jesus... They do not understand that Christ Jesus has been impacted because the person believing has been placed "...into..." Him.

And the same goes for their understanding of their own changed condition/position... Meaning, they are unclear that they have been removed from where they were, and been placed "...into..." a new position, this new position being "...in..." Christ Jesus.

And this is actually a huge problem with the church, which has led to all sorts of errors creeping in... The worst of which is found in folly religious organizations that promote the need to hold to the organization as some kind of intermediate between the believer and Christ.

And I have personally witnessed this throughout Christianity. In fact, it is so ingrained that when I put forward that the "...in..." actually indicates the action movement of "...into...", many have responded that I was foolish, and even one recently suggested that I am a heretic.

It's really quite sad... But I understand why this matter gets the types of responses that it does... Because the proper realization by believers of our — the church's — reality being "...in Christ..." is essentially what brings the Lord back... And His opposer doesn't want it to take place.

Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

Throughout scripture, we are instructed, in various ways, to be ‘in Him.’
He is our ‘fortress.’ To be protected by a fortress, ya gotta go INSIDE. When collectively, believers request an audience with God, He surrounds them. This is ‘being in(side) the Spirit.’

Yes...

But in specific relation to the use of the word "...in..." instead of "...into..." in John 3:16...

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who believes in] Him would not perish, but would have eternal life."

The word "...in..." actually means, in the manuscripts that Bible translations are taken from, "...into...".

This being the case... Is something lost by the use of the word "...in..." instead of "...into..."?

To go "...INSIDE..." the fortress is to go "...into..." the fortress.

To be "...in(side) the Spirit..." is to have gone "...into..." the Spirit... As no person was "...in(side) the Spirit..." from birth... We were all actually out(side) the Spirit.

Who would say that they were brought from one place to in the Spirit?

Or moved from one place to in the Spirit?

Of course, we know in Revelation that John said that he was "...in spirit..." (there is no "...the..." in the manuscripts, this is another translation error in many translation versions) when he heard the Lord, but this was because John had already believed "...into..." Christ Jesus, and in this, had received the Spirit in his regenerated spirit.

And this is actually just one more poor translation that has led many believers to poorly understand the reality that is being presented to us in the scripture.

For instance... You used the phrase "...being in(side) the Spirit..."... And yet, this phrase isn't actually in the Greek language manuscripts that translations are taken from.

Now I know most translations use it in Revelation 1:10, but as I said above, this is a poor translation because there is no Greek word meaning "...the..." that is used in the manuscripts translations are taken from... The Greek actually says, "...in spirit...", which could simply mean that John was in his human spirit, in which the Spirit dwells within John since he was a born-again of God believer.

But perhaps you can present the scripture from which you get the concept of "...This is ‘being in(side) the Spirit.'...".

Thanks.

Amen.

 

[notworthconsideration]

This being the case... Is something lost by the use of the word "...in..." instead of "...into..."?

Certainly, something is lost. Those who think you can use the title “Christian” and claim God’s protection not knowing that you actually have to “within” Him.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

The problem in churches is not whether they are using in or into for eis. The problem of most or many churches is they are teaching either a faith plus actions/works for salvation, or just a blatantly works salvation.

That belief/faith in The Messiah is not enough, they person must also life a life of obedience/commitment, be baptized, repent from sin, confess Christ, say a sinners prayer, etc... Many have redefined faith as commitment or obedience, that if you say you have believed in The Messiah. But yet are not living a life committed to Jesus, your faith was a false faith. Especially if a person falls away from faith, they say either they never truly believed or they lost their salvation.

Works based salvation teachings, always emphasize the never truly believed or they lost their salvation teachings in their churches.
Many place people (believers) at the great white throne judgment, to see if the person is a true believer and were they committed enough to Jesus.

They very rarely use the language of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. They use the term salvation, as that word better supports their obedience salvation mind set. As the word salvation in The Bible can also refer to a physical salvation by God, which will/can require other actions like repentance, baptism, etc

 

[Above & Beyond]

-
​

The problem in churches is not whether they are using in or into for eis. The problem of most or many churches is they are teaching either a faith plus actions/works for salvation, or just a blatantly works salvation.

That belief/faith in The Messiah is not enough, they person must also life a life of obedience/commitment, be baptized, repent from sin, confess Christ, say a sinners prayer, etc... Many have redefined faith as commitment or obedience, that if you say you have believed in The Messiah. But yet are not living a life committed to Jesus, your faith was a false faith. Especially if a person falls away from faith, they say either they never truly believed or they lost their salvation.

Works based salvation teachings, always emphasize the never truly believed or they lost their salvation teachings in their churches.
Many place people (believers) at the great white throne judgment, to see if the person is a true believer and were they committed enough to Jesus.

They very rarely use the language of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. They use the term salvation, as that word better supports their obedience salvation mind set. As the word salvation in The Bible can also refer to a physical salvation by God, which will/can require other actions like repentance, baptism, etc

I didn't say nor suggest that the problem "...in churches..." is a result of "...using in or into for eis..."...

In my opening comment, all I asked is whether "...in..." or "...into..." should be used when translating the Greek word transliterated as "...eis...".

So you're kind of setting up a dishonest straw man argument there, d taylor.

That made clear... I'll bite on your somewhat Free Grace bait and respond accordingly...

You said, "...The problem of most or many churches is they are teaching either a faith plus actions/works for salvation, or just a blatantly works salvation."

Well... Not really... Whatever is being taught is related to what they know and therefore have concluded should be taught... This means that the problem with "...churches...", if error is being taught, is a lack of proper understanding of the reality biblical scripture presents, by those who are doing the teaching.

When there is a problem with something, the root of the problem is what needs to be identified and dealt with.

Now you said "...they are teaching either a faith plus actions/works for salvation, or just a blatantly works salvation...", which I take to understand as you think that "...works..." should not be taught as a part of (an aspect of) God's salvation economy for man.
Thing is... In Philippians 2:12 we have the apostle Paul clearly telling born-again of God believers to "...work out our own salvation...", and do so "... with fear and trembling."

This speaking of the apostle Paul alone tells us that "...works..." of some kind is absolutely involved with God's salvation economy for man.

This being the case... What is needed is for us to become clear on just how the apostle Paul's speaking regarding "...saved by grace..." relates to his speaking about "...work out your own salvation...".

Moving on...

You continued... "...That belief/faith in The Messiah is not enough, the person must also [have] a life of obedience/commitment, be baptized, repent from sin, confess Christ, say a sinners prayer, etc... Many have redefined faith as commitment or obedience, that if you say you have believed in The Messiah. But yet are not living a life committed to Jesus, your faith was a false faith. Especially if a person falls away from faith, they say either they never truly believed or they lost their salvation. Works-based salvation teachings, always emphasize the never truly believed or they lost their salvation teachings in their churches. Many place people (believers) at the great white throne judgment, to see if the person is a true believer and were they committed enough to Jesus."

This that you're describing is just indicative of a poor understanding of God's salvation economy for the salvation of man.
Moving on...

You continued... "...They very rarely use the language of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. They use the term salvation, as that word better supports their obedience salvation mindset. As the word salvation in The Bible can also refer to a physical salvation by God, which will/can require other actions like repentance, baptism, etc."

The word "...salvation..." is found in both Old Testament scripture (Hebrew, "...yᵊšûʿâ..."... Actually, there are a few different ways of spelling it in Hebrew) and New Testament scripture (Greek, "...sōtēria...")... And the definition in both languages is pretty much the same... Deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation.

Now... Yes... God's salvation is a "...free gift..." offered to man by God... BUT... Nowhere in scripture do we see God giving this "...free gift..." without a divine purpose related to it... And this is where most "...free gift/free grace..." (promoters fall into error)... As God most certainly has a divine purpose related to His free gift of salvation.

And this divine purpose of God that is related to His divine gift of salvation... Most certainly has a requirement of "...works..." connected to it... Not "...works..." unto salvation... But "...works..." unto a testimony of this salvation.

God's salvation of man must have its expression carried out... Of that, scripture is absolutely clear.

And the way of God regarding His gaining this testimony of His salvation of man, is by man cooperating with the inward-working God so that man becomes the living testimony of what God has done for man.

And this is what the apostle Paul was speaking to in Philippians 2:12... To cooperate with God after we have received God's gift of salvation is the reality of our working out our salvation.

Amen.

 

[d taylor]

I didn't say nor suggest that the problem "...in churches..." is a result of "...using in or into for eis..."...

In my opening comment, all I asked is whether "...in..." or "...into..." should be used when translating the Greek word transliterated as "...eis...".

So you're kind of setting up a dishonest straw man argument there, d taylor.

That made clear... I'll bite on your somewhat Free Grace bait and respond accordingly...

You said, "...The problem of most or many churches is they are teaching either a faith plus actions/works for salvation, or just a blatantly works salvation."

Well... Not really... Whatever is being taught is related to what they know and therefore have concluded should be taught... This means that the problem with "...churches...", if error is being taught, is a lack of proper understanding of the reality biblical scripture presents, by those who are doing the teaching.

When there is a problem with something, the root of the problem is what needs to be identified and dealt with.

Now you said "...they are teaching either a faith plus actions/works for salvation, or just a blatantly works salvation...", which I take to understand as you think that "...works..." should not be taught as a part of (an aspect of) God's salvation economy for man.
Thing is... In Philippians 2:12 we have the apostle Paul clearly telling born-again of God believers to "...work out our own salvation...", and do so "... with fear and trembling."

This speaking of the apostle Paul alone tells us that "...works..." of some kind is absolutely involved with God's salvation economy for man.

This being the case... What is needed is for us to become clear on just how the apostle Paul's speaking regarding "...saved by grace..." relates to his speaking about "...work out your own salvation...".

Moving on...

You continued... "...That belief/faith in The Messiah is not enough, the person must also [have] a life of obedience/commitment, be baptized, repent from sin, confess Christ, say a sinners prayer, etc... Many have redefined faith as commitment or obedience, that if you say you have believed in The Messiah. But yet are not living a life committed to Jesus, your faith was a false faith. Especially if a person falls away from faith, they say either they never truly believed or they lost their salvation. Works-based salvation teachings, always emphasize the never truly believed or they lost their salvation teachings in their churches. Many place people (believers) at the great white throne judgment, to see if the person is a true believer and were they committed enough to Jesus."

This that you're describing is just indicative of a poor understanding of God's salvation economy for the salvation of man.
Moving on...

You continued... "...They very rarely use the language of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. They use the term salvation, as that word better supports their obedience salvation mindset. As the word salvation in The Bible can also refer to a physical salvation by God, which will/can require other actions like repentance, baptism, etc."

The word "...salvation..." is found in both Old Testament scripture (Hebrew, "...yᵊšûʿâ..."... Actually, there are a few different ways of spelling it in Hebrew) and New Testament scripture (Greek, "...sōtēria...")... And the definition in both languages is pretty much the same... Deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation.

Now... Yes... God's salvation is a "...free gift..." offered to man by God... BUT... Nowhere in scripture do we see God giving this "...free gift..." without a divine purpose related to it... And this is where most "...free gift/free grace..." (promoters fall into error)... As God most certainly has a divine purpose related to His free gift of salvation.

And this divine purpose of God that is related to His divine gift of salvation... Most certainly has a requirement of "...works..." connected to it... Not "...works..." unto salvation... But "...works..." unto a testimony of this salvation.

God's salvation of man must have its expression carried out... Of that, scripture is absolutely clear.

And the way of God regarding His gaining this testimony of His salvation of man, is by man cooperating with the inward-working God so that man becomes the living testimony of what God has done for man.

And this is what the apostle Paul was speaking to in Philippians 2:12... To cooperate with God after we have received God's gift of salvation is the reality of our working out our salvation.

Amen.

Your words


In the common way of thinking... It doesn't... The thought is focused on the person who is believing/believeth... With no thought given to the change that takes place within the object/pronoun "...Him...".
And therein lies the problem... People retain a poor, improper view/understanding of what actually takes place when a person believes "...in..." Christ Jesus... They do not understand that Christ Jesus has been impacted because the person believing has been placed "...into..." Him.

And the same goes for their understanding of their own changed condition/position... Meaning, they are unclear that they have been removed from where they were, and been placed "...into..." a new position, this new position being "...in..." Christ Jesus.

And this is actually a huge problem with the church, which has led to all sorts of errors creeping in... The worst of which is found in folly religious organizations that promote the need to hold to the organization as some kind of intermediate between the believer and Christ.

 

[Above & Beyond]

Your words


In the common way of thinking... It doesn't... The thought is focused on the person who is believing/believeth... With no thought given to the change that takes place within the object/pronoun "...Him...".
And therein lies the problem... People retain a poor, improper view/understanding of what actually takes place when a person believes "...in..." Christ Jesus... They do not understand that Christ Jesus has been impacted because the person believing has been placed "...into..." Him.

And the same goes for their understanding of their own changed condition/position... Meaning, they are unclear that they have been removed from where they were, and been placed "...into..." a new position, this new position being "...in..." Christ Jesus.

And this is actually a huge problem with the church, which has led to all sorts of errors creeping in... The worst of which is found in folly religious organizations that promote the need to hold to the organization as some kind of intermediate between the believer and Christ.

Those are certainly my words... But they are my words that have been taken out of the context I wrote them in.

Go back to my comment from which you copied them and check to actual context in which they were written then get back to me.

Amen.

 

[d taylor]

I didn't say nor suggest that the problem "...in churches..." is a result of "...using in or into for eis..."...

In my opening comment, all I asked is whether "...in..." or "...into..." should be used when translating the Greek word transliterated as "...eis...".

So you're kind of setting up a dishonest straw man argument there, d taylor.

That made clear... I'll bite on your somewhat Free Grace bait and respond accordingly...

You said, "...The problem of most or many churches is they are teaching either a faith plus actions/works for salvation, or just a blatantly works salvation."

Well... Not really... Whatever is being taught is related to what they know and therefore have concluded should be taught... This means that the problem with "...churches...", if error is being taught, is a lack of proper understanding of the reality biblical scripture presents, by those who are doing the teaching.

When there is a problem with something, the root of the problem is what needs to be identified and dealt with.

Now you said "...they are teaching either a faith plus actions/works for salvation, or just a blatantly works salvation...", which I take to understand as you think that "...works..." should not be taught as a part of (an aspect of) God's salvation economy for man.
Thing is... In Philippians 2:12 we have the apostle Paul clearly telling born-again of God believers to "...work out our own salvation...", and do so "... with fear and trembling."

This speaking of the apostle Paul alone tells us that "...works..." of some kind is absolutely involved with God's salvation economy for man.

This being the case... What is needed is for us to become clear on just how the apostle Paul's speaking regarding "...saved by grace..." relates to his speaking about "...work out your own salvation...".

Moving on...

You continued... "...That belief/faith in The Messiah is not enough, the person must also [have] a life of obedience/commitment, be baptized, repent from sin, confess Christ, say a sinners prayer, etc... Many have redefined faith as commitment or obedience, that if you say you have believed in The Messiah. But yet are not living a life committed to Jesus, your faith was a false faith. Especially if a person falls away from faith, they say either they never truly believed or they lost their salvation. Works-based salvation teachings, always emphasize the never truly believed or they lost their salvation teachings in their churches. Many place people (believers) at the great white throne judgment, to see if the person is a true believer and were they committed enough to Jesus."

This that you're describing is just indicative of a poor understanding of God's salvation economy for the salvation of man.
Moving on...

You continued... "...They very rarely use the language of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. They use the term salvation, as that word better supports their obedience salvation mindset. As the word salvation in The Bible can also refer to a physical salvation by God, which will/can require other actions like repentance, baptism, etc."

The word "...salvation..." is found in both Old Testament scripture (Hebrew, "...yᵊšûʿâ..."... Actually, there are a few different ways of spelling it in Hebrew) and New Testament scripture (Greek, "...sōtēria...")... And the definition in both languages is pretty much the same... Deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation.

Now... Yes... God's salvation is a "...free gift..." offered to man by God... BUT... Nowhere in scripture do we see God giving this "...free gift..." without a divine purpose related to it... And this is where most "...free gift/free grace..." (promoters fall into error)... As God most certainly has a divine purpose related to His free gift of salvation.

And this divine purpose of God that is related to His divine gift of salvation... Most certainly has a requirement of "...works..." connected to it... Not "...works..." unto salvation... But "...works..." unto a testimony of this salvation.

God's salvation of man must have its expression carried out... Of that, scripture is absolutely clear.

And the way of God regarding His gaining this testimony of His salvation of man, is by man cooperating with the inward-working God so that man becomes the living testimony of what God has done for man.

And this is what the apostle Paul was speaking to in Philippians 2:12... To cooperate with God after we have received God's gift of salvation is the reality of our working out our salvation.

Amen.

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...The faith of a born again child of God is ideally a working faith. That is after that moment of faith in The Messiah, then the born again believer should be on a path of maturity, growth. Producing fruit and good works, not to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, but to eventually have a good judgment at the Bema seat of The Messiah. Which is a judgment of loss or gain of rewards for the children of God.

...But not all born again believers accomplish this, many like the second and thrid fruit in the parable of the soils fall away and live out their life as a unproductive child of God a prodigal son or daughter.

 

[Above & Beyond]

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...The faith of a born again child of God is ideally a working faith. That is after that moment of faith in The Messiah, then the born again believer should be on a path of maturity, growth. Producing fruit and good works, not to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, but to eventually have a good judgment at the Bema seat of The Messiah. Which is a judgment of loss or gain of rewards for the children of God.

...But not all born again believers accomplish this, many like the second and thrid fruit in the parable of the soils fall away and live out their life as a unproductive child of God a prodigal son or daughter.

The faith of a born-again of God believer is Christ Jesus, Himself, as the faith that works and operates within a regenerated person.

This faith that is the working/operating Christ Jesus has inherent within itself an obedience that is purposed to specifically carry out and accomplish the will of the Father as declared in the Son.

So there is no "...ideally a working faith..."... As The Lord's faith is the overcoming faith that is in resurrection... And therefore is perfect.

Yet God in His wisdom chose to leave every born-again of God believer with our fallen old man... And so, even as we have a new man in our regenerated spirit, we also have our old man in our flesh... And these two war against each other... The battlefield this war is fought on, and over, is our soul (comprised of our mind, emotion, & will).

This brings us to the question of how the born-again of God believer wins the battle between our flesh and the regenerated spirit of our new man/creation?

And scripture is clear... We win the battle between our fallen old man and our new creation man by denying ourselves, by decreasing, by denying our soul life... And it is this that is the only work that the born-again of God believer needs to do.

And how do we deny ourselves, decrease, and deny our souls?

By looking away to Jesus... It's the only way.

It is not by producing "...fruit and good works..."... Good works and fruit are the results of looking away to Jesus... As we look away to Jesus, which is to say, as we behold Jesus... We will spontaneously reflect Him in our daily living.

And the only "...good..." that can come out of us is the very Person of Christ Jesus.

This is what the reality of a born-again of God believer's maturity and growth in life is... It is our being constituted with and growing in, Christ Jesus, as we look away to Him... And as we are constituted with Him... He then becomes our life and living, even as we live on this earth.

It is this living of Christ Jesus that is the measure that will be used by the Lord in His judging of those who have been born-again of God... Meaning... How constituted with Christ Jesus are we... How much growth in Him we possess will determine our reward unto reigning with Him in His millennium reign... Or suffering loss of reward, unto further chastening in outer darkness.

All born-again of God believers will enter into the new eternity the same... None will be more righteous than any other... We will all be one in Christ Jesus, bearing His image and likeness, and living by His life and nature.

It is only in the millennium reign of Christ that there will be a dividing of those born-again of God believers who overcame the world, self, and sin in our earthly life... And those who did not overcome.

Amen.

 

[d taylor]

The faith of a born-again of God believer is Christ Jesus, Himself, as the faith that works and operates within a regenerated person.

This faith that is the working/operating Christ Jesus has inherent within itself an obedience that is purposed to specifically carry out and accomplish the will of the Father as declared in the Son.

So there is no "...ideally a working faith..."... As The Lord's faith is the overcoming faith that is in resurrection... And therefore is perfect.

Yet God in His wisdom chose to leave every born-again of God believer with our fallen old man... And so, even as we have a new man in our regenerated spirit, we also have our old man in our flesh... And these two war against each other... The battlefield this war is fought on, and over, is our soul (comprised of our mind, emotion, & will).

This brings us to the question of how the born-again of God believer wins the battle between our flesh and the regenerated spirit of our new man/creation?

And scripture is clear... We win the battle between our fallen old man and our new creation man by denying ourselves, by decreasing, by denying our soul life... And it is this that is the only work that the born-again of God believer needs to do.

And how do we deny ourselves, decrease, and deny our souls?

By looking away to Jesus... It's the only way.

It is not by producing "...fruit and good works..."... Good works and fruit are the results of looking away to Jesus... As we look away to Jesus, which is to say, as we behold Jesus... We will spontaneously reflect Him in our daily living.

And the only "...good..." that can come out of us is the very Person of Christ Jesus.

This is what the reality of a born-again of God believer's maturity and growth in life is... It is our being constituted with and growing in, Christ Jesus, as we look away to Him... And as we are constituted with Him... He then becomes our life and living, even as we live on this earth.

It is this living of Christ Jesus that is the measure that will be used by the Lord in His judging of those who have been born-again of God... Meaning... How constituted with Christ Jesus are we... How much growth in Him we possess will determine our reward unto reigning with Him in His millennium reign... Or suffering loss of reward, unto further chastening in outer darkness.

All born-again of God believers will enter into the new eternity the same... None will be more righteous than any other... We will all be one in Christ Jesus, bearing His image and likeness, and living by His life and nature.

It is only in the millennium reign of Christ that there will be a dividing of those born-again of God believers who overcame the world, self, and sin in our earthly life... And those who did not overcome.

Amen.

Jesus is a person not a faith. It is faith/belief in The person of Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

That is what resides in the born again child of God The person of The Holy Spirit.