Believe "...IN...", or "...INTO..."... What exactly is it?

[Above & Beyond]

This is a matter that confronted me some twenty years ago and was thankfully able to immediately grasp the reality of it. But not many in mainstream Christianity do... And this is unfortunate, as holding to "...believe in..." can leave someone way short of the truth regarding a born-again of God Christian believer properly understanding what the reality of their born-again being actually is.

I look forward to having some rewarding fellowship regarding this matter.

Amen.

 

[d taylor]

-​

Believe in Jesus, that is believe in the person Jesus, that He, Jesus is the resurrection and the life.

What It Means to Believe in Jesus – Grace Evangelical Society

What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Maria Billingsley]

This is a matter that confronted me some twenty years ago and was thankfully able to immediately grasp the reality of it. But not many in mainstream Christianity do... And this is unfortunate, as holding to "...believe in..." can leave someone way short of the truth regarding a born-again of God Christian believer properly understanding what the reality of their born-again being actually is.

I look forward to having some rewarding fellowship regarding this matter.

Amen.

When we believe in Him we are" in Him", so both. He makes His Home in us through His Holy Spirit.
Blessings

 

[sandman]

When someone tells me they believe in God ....I tell them "that is wonderful" .... but then I ask them "Do you believe God" which opens up a whole new category of conversation.

 

[Above & Beyond]

-​

Believe in Jesus, that is believe in the person Jesus, that He, Jesus is the resurrection and the life.

What It Means to Believe in Jesus – Grace Evangelical Society

What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

Hi d taylor, thanks for joining.

What you're saying is actually indicative of the problem when the word "...in..." is used, as it suggests a kind of objective believing only and this does not give a person a complete view of what actually takes place when you believe "...in[to]..." the son.

Jesus, as the resurrection and the life... Becomes that by which a born-again believer lives... Meaning, we actually take Him as our life and living... He lives... Not us... As the apostle Paul says in Galatians 2:20.

Unfortunately, when the phrase "...believes in..." is read, the understanding of it is usually very short of the truth and this can lead to much error.

Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

When we believe in Him we are" in Him", so both. He makes His Home in us through His Holy Spirit.
Blessings

Well, actually, it isn't really both... It's just one... We believe (verb defining movement)... INTO... Him... And because we do... We then are now positionally... IN... Him.

Many people are confused by this, and think that the believe in Him is just a kind of objective belief. But it's far, far more than that.

Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

When someone tells me they believe in God ....I tell them "that is wonderful" .... but then I ask them "Do you believe God" which opens up a whole new category of conversation.

That's good... As the question immediately introduces an inward consideration of what God may be saying.

And yet... It's still short of the reality of believing into (being transferred/translated from one reality to another reality) the Son... As a person can use their natural human reasoning to believe what they think God is speaking... And this is error, as it is a reliance of their fallen natural man.

But I see where the "...new category of conversation..." can help to this end... But why not just make it clear from the very root, which would be the biblical translation, by using the properly translated word?

Amen.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This is where I find languages such as Chinese to be surprisingly helpful. As some might know, Chinese is rather sparse with prepositions. In China nobody is the least bit aware of believing in Jesus Christ or into Jesus Christ, simply because there are no such constructs in the language. One simply believes Jesus Christ. It is as direct and simple as that.

 

[d taylor]

Hi d taylor, thanks for joining.

What you're saying is actually indicative of the problem when the word "...in..." is used, as it suggests a kind of objective believing only and this does not give a person a complete view of what actually takes place when you believe "...in[to]..." the son.

Jesus, as the resurrection and the life... Becomes that by which a born-again believer lives... Meaning, we actually take Him as our life and living... He lives... Not us... As the apostle Paul says in Galatians 2:20.

Unfortunately, when the phrase "...believes in..." is read, the understanding of it is usually very short of the truth and this can lead to much error.

Amen.

Using in Jesus creates no difficulty or confusion, a person is believing a promise of God. So either a person believes this promise or they do not.

God's promise is an act of belief that happens in a moment of time, it is not a life time of belief. The parable of the soils illustrates this. As the second, third and fourth soil all believed and were saved became a born again child of God. But only one of these three soils matured to bear fruit. But that is not a salvation issue but a discipleship issue, the 2nd and 3rd soils did not have the commitment/discipline to grow and to bear fruit.

 

[Above & Beyond]

Using in Jesus creates no difficulty or confusion, a person is believing a promise of God. So either a person believes this promise or they do not.

God's promise is an act of belief that happens in a moment of time, it is not a life time of belief. The parable of the soils illustrates this. As the second, third and fourth soil all believed and were saved became a born again child of God. But only one of these three soils matured to bear fruit. But that is not a salvation issue but a discipleship issue, the 2nd and 3rd soils did not have the commitment/discipline to grow and to bear fruit.

I've actually seen it create difficulty and error... Because the thought was that their believing was of them and so they saw it as the way to continue their relationship with the Lord.

And no... The person isn't just believing a promise of God... A person is believing... INTO... a promise of God... This promise of God being the Person of Jesus Christ.

Scripture tells us that even demons believe in Him, but they can't believe... INTO... Him. There is a difference.

God's salvation is immediate upon a person believing... INTO... Christ Jesus... Because God's promise is within Christ Jesus... If you are in Christ Jesus, then you are in the promise of God... If you are not in Christ Jesus, then you are not in the promise of God.

And if you are in Christ Jesus... Then, just as God's promise is eternal... So is the believing that brought us into the promise eternal.

This is because the believing that brings us into the promise of God is just God Himself within the person as the believing.

Grace means that everything is of God... Including the believing required to be saved.

Regarding the parable of the seed being sown... There is nothing in scripture that tells us that the parable is speaking of the matter of being born-again of God... All that it speaks to is the condition of a person's heart in relation to the seed being planted by the sower... And in the parable, the first three heart conditions rejected the seed. Only the fourth had a heart open to receiving the seed, and because of this, the seed caused the production of fruit.

And yes, there is certainly a difference between the judicial (immediate) and organic (lifelong) salvation aspects of God's full salvation of man... But both are just one salvation... As the seed that is planted the moment a person believes in the Son, has as its inherent nature, the producing of God's eternal desire for man.

See... Salvation isn't unto the will of man... Salvation is unto the will of God... And God's will for saved man is that saved man becomes God's eternal dwelling place, Zion... And to become Zion, saved man must be perfected in the salvation that has been received.

Unfortunately, in Christianity, most are pretty much clueless to this reality regarding God's salvation of man.

Amen.

 

[d taylor]

I've actually seen it create difficulty and error... Because the thought was that their believing was of them and so they saw it as the way to continue their relationship with the Lord.

And no... The person isn't just believing a promise of God... A person is believing... INTO... a promise of God... This promise of God being the Person of Jesus Christ.

Scripture tells us that even demons believe in Him, but they can't believe... INTO... Him. There is a difference.

God's salvation is immediate upon a person believing... INTO... Christ Jesus... Because God's promise is within Christ Jesus... If you are in Christ Jesus, then you are in the promise of God... If you are not in Christ Jesus, then you are not in the promise of God.

And if you are in Christ Jesus... Then, just as God's promise is eternal... So is the believing that brought us into the promise eternal.

This is because the believing that brings us into the promise of God is just God Himself within the person as the believing.

Grace means that everything is of God... Including the believing required to be saved.

Regarding the parable of the seed being sown... There is nothing in scripture that tells us that the parable is speaking of the matter of being born-again of God... All that it speaks to is the condition of a person's heart in relation to the seed being planted by the sower... And in the parable, the first three heart conditions rejected the seed. Only the fourth had a heart open to receiving the seed, and because of this, the seed caused the production of fruit.

And yes, there is certainly a difference between the judicial (immediate) and organic (lifelong) salvation aspects of God's full salvation of man... But both are just one salvation... As the seed that is planted the moment a person believes in the Son, has as its inherent nature, the producing of God's eternal desire for man.

See... Salvation isn't unto the will of man... Salvation is unto the will of God... And God's will for saved man is that saved man becomes God's eternal dwelling place, Zion... And to become Zion, saved man must be perfected in the salvation that has been received.

Unfortunately, in Christianity, most are pretty much clueless to this reality regarding God's salvation of man.

Amen.

-
​

Becoming a born again child of God was never offered to demons, as they are a product of fallen angels. So using demons as an comparison is not a valid example.

 

[Above & Beyond]

This is where I find languages such as Chinese to be surprisingly helpful. As some might know, Chinese is rather sparse with prepositions. In China nobody is the least bit aware of believing in Jesus Christ or into Jesus Christ, simply because there are no such constructs in the language. One simply believes Jesus Christ. It is as direct and simple as that.

But I wonder, how do the Chinese understand the following...

John 1:12... "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, . . . Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Is there no word in Chinese for "...receive..."?

And to believe Jesus Christ is to be transferred/translated out of darkness into light... How do the Chinese understand this?

Although I understand the lack of prepositions... If a person believes what someone is saying... This believing must be unto something... Meaning, there must be a result that comes out of their believing Jesus Christ... And this has to have some kind of corresponding understanding.

And this is where the rest of the gospel of God reveals the reality of being brought into Christ Jesus when you have believed the gospel of God.

There really is no way around it if you read and receive all that is in the New Testament scriptures.

The full gospel of God is not just believing... It is believing... UNTO... something... And the way a person moves to this something is in and through being in Christ Jesus.

Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

-
​

Becoming a born again child of God was never offered to demons, as they are a product of fallen angels. So using demons as an comparison is not a valid example.

Well... Let's start here...

What do you think "...believe in..." means?

Amen.

 

[d taylor]

Well... Let's start here...

What do you think "...believe in..." means?

Amen.

In general if a person says i will bring you some tomatoes tomorrow. I simply believe what this person said to me, then i have believed in this person and their promise to bring me tomatoes tomorrow.

Now concerning God's promise of Eternal Life. God has made a promise that anyone who believes in Jesus. That Jesus is the promised Messiah, Son of God and is the resurrection and the life has believed in Jesus and has received God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Believe "...IN...", or "...INTO..."... What exactly is it?

 

[bbbbbbb]

But I wonder, how do the Chinese understand the following...

John 1:12... "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, . . . Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Is there no word in Chinese for "...receive..."?

And to believe Jesus Christ is to be transferred/translated out of darkness into light... How do the Chinese understand this?

Although I understand the lack of prepositions... If a person believes what someone is saying... This believing must be unto something... Meaning, there must be a result that comes out of their believing Jesus Christ... And this has to have some kind of corresponding understanding.

And this is where the rest of the gospel of God reveals the reality of being brought into Christ Jesus when you have believed the gospel of God.

There really is no way around it if you read and receive all that is in the New Testament scriptures.

The full gospel of God is not just believing... It is believing... UNTO... something... And the way a person moves to this something is in and through being in Christ Jesus.

Amen.

Chinese people have no significant difficulty in understanding the gospel. Fortunately, for them, they do not even imagine any possible difference between "in" and "into". Either you believe Jesus Christ or you don't.

You, and others like yourself, might conclude that no Chinese person can possibly be saved because they have not believed unto Jesus Christ. If so, then they cannot ever be saved, because such phraseology is entirely alien to both the written as well as the 32 primary languages spoken in China.

 

[Above & Beyond]

In general if a person says i will bring you some tomatoes tomorrow. I simply believe what this person said to me, then i have believed in this person and their promise to bring me tomatoes tomorrow.

Now concerning God's promise of Eternal Life. God has made a promise that anyone who believes in Jesus. That Jesus is the promised Messiah, Son of God and is the resurrection and the life has believed in Jesus and has received God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Believe "...IN...", or "...INTO..."... What exactly is it?

Well... In a superficial manner, that is what a person may tell themselves... Meaning... You tell yourself that you "...have believed in this person and their promise to bring [you] tomatoes tomorrow..."... But the truth is... You have believed in yourself, by your own reasoning of what you think this person will do.

Do you see that... You believed in your own reasoned conclusion of this person saying they will bring you tomatoes tomorrow.

You haven't actually believed in them, you believed in yourself... In your reasoning that you projected onto the person.

If you were walking along a street in the middle of a city and some stranger wearing a clown costume walked up to you and said that they would bring you tomatoes tomorrow, would you believe them?

I doubt it... More like you'd think it was some prank being filmed for YouTube.

Personal perception of what is taking place is what your thoughts would be related to... And in the case of Jesus, most people use their natural human reasoning to conclude that believing the gospel that they have heard makes sense and so they choose to believe in Jesus out of their natural human reasoned conclusion.

But that's not how the salvation economy of God works... It's not how God's salvation by grace economy works... As God's salvation by grace economy includes no natural man effort... This means, that there is no place for any natural human reasoned conclusion in the salvation of a person by God.

So to use your tomato analogy properly in regards to God's economy for the salvation of man... It would mean that the clown would simply walk up to you with a basket of tomatoes, offer them to you, and you would spontaneously reach out and take them without any reasoned thought.

To believe in[to] Jesus is to simply be spontaneously captured by who He is and what He has done... To be spontaneously captured by His beauty... Just as you would be captured by the beauty of a wonderful sunrise taking place over distant mountains... Or the beauty of a flower you're walking by... Totally spontaneous without any need for a natural human reasoned thought about it.

That's the reality of the experience of the salvation of God by His grace... No natural human effort (which is just the basis of works)... Just all the work of God.

And so, without the proper understanding of this reality of God's salvation, a person will not properly understand what has actually taken place... And this lack of understanding will continue into their day-to-day relationship with God... Meaning, they will continue to think that their relationship with God is one that is based on their natural man reasoning... Which is just error before God.

And this is clearly presented to us at the beginning of Isaiah chapter 6, in which we see Isaiah seeing a vision of God, and then immediately seeing his own poor condition, and declaring it, upon which, immediately "...the seraphim flew..." to Isaiah "...with an ember...", touched Isaiah's mouth with it, and immediately his "...iniquity [was] taken away, and [his' sin [was] purged."... Which is a picture of God's salvation economy for man.|

And it all happened to Isaiah without him having to reach any conclusions from his natural man reasoning.

This being the reality of God's salvation of man... That man has no part in it other than to receive what God gives, and even our receiving ability is of God (no man comes to God of our own accord, God must draw us to Himself)... The phrase "...believe in...", when consider as something that man does in and out of our natural man... Is just error.

Whereas, to "...believe in[to]..." defines what actually takes place... As God draws us "...into..." His economy of salvation for man.

Before a person is saved, this person is just in death and darkness... Which is just nothingness before God... And nothingness cannot produce anything good (of life) before God... And so God must choose within Himself to draw dead nothingness to Himself and give this dead nothingness eternal life.
And God carries this out... in... Christ Jesus (all things are in Him, through Him, and unto Him)... This is why God causes the person that He is saving to be drawn... INTO... Christ Jesus... By causing that person to believe... INTO... Him.

And this is why the Greek word used in John 3:16 isn't "...en..." (transliteration), which means in... But is "...eis..." (transliteration), which means into.

Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

Chinese people have no significant difficulty in understanding the gospel. Fortunately, for them, they do not even imagine any possible difference between "in" and "into". Either you believe Jesus Christ or you don't.

You, and others like yourself, might conclude that no Chinese person can possibly be saved because they have not believed unto Jesus Christ. If so, then they cannot ever be saved, because such phraseology is entirely alien to both the written as well as the 32 primary languages spoken in China.

Actually... I read and appreciate Watchman Nee's writings... And have for some 25+ years... Additionally, I have have personally know quite a few Chinese born-again of God believers, and even meet with some.

So I'm good with understanding Chinese believers and even the basics of the Chinese language in relation to biblical scripture, thanks.

And whether or not biblical "...phraseology..." is alien to Chinese people... We are speaking about God... And nothing is impossible for God.

Perhaps you should reconsider which matter of what you think reigns in the work of God... The natural man, or the Spirit of God.

Amen.

 

[d taylor]

Well... In a superficial manner, that is what a person may tell themselves... Meaning... You tell yourself that you "...have believed in this person and their promise to bring [you] tomatoes tomorrow..."... But the truth is... You have believed in yourself, by your own reasoning of what you think this person will do.

Do you see that... You believed in your own reasoned conclusion of this person saying they will bring you tomatoes tomorrow.

You haven't actually believed in them, you believed in yourself... In your reasoning that you projected onto the person.

If you were walking along a street in the middle of a city and some stranger wearing a clown costume walked up to you and said that they would bring you tomatoes tomorrow, would you believe them?

I doubt it... More like you'd think it was some prank being filmed for YouTube.

Personal perception of what is taking place is what your thoughts would be related to... And in the case of Jesus, most people use their natural human reasoning to conclude that believing the gospel that they have heard makes sense and so they choose to believe in Jesus out of their natural human reasoned conclusion.

But that's not how the salvation economy of God works... It's not how God's salvation by grace economy works... As God's salvation by grace economy includes no natural man effort... This means, that there is no place for any natural human reasoned conclusion in the salvation of a person by God.

So to use your tomato analogy properly in regards to God's economy for the salvation of man... It would mean that the clown would simply walk up to you with a basket of tomatoes, offer them to you, and you would spontaneously reach out and take them without any reasoned thought.

To believe in[to] Jesus is to simply be spontaneously captured by who He is and what He has done... To be spontaneously captured by His beauty... Just as you would be captured by the beauty of a wonderful sunrise taking place over distant mountains... Or the beauty of a flower you're walking by... Totally spontaneous without any need for a natural human reasoned thought about it.

That's the reality of the experience of the salvation of God by His grace... No natural human effort (which is just the basis of works)... Just all the work of God.

And so, without the proper understanding of this reality of God's salvation, a person will not properly understand what has actually taken place... And this lack of understanding will continue into their day-to-day relationship with God... Meaning, they will continue to think that their relationship with God is one that is based on their natural man reasoning... Which is just error before God.

And this is clearly presented to us at the beginning of Isaiah chapter 6, in which we see Isaiah seeing a vision of God, and then immediately seeing his own poor condition, and declaring it, upon which, immediately "...the seraphim flew..." to Isaiah "...with an ember...", touched Isaiah's mouth with it, and immediately his "...iniquity [was] taken away, and [his' sin [was] purged."... Which is a picture of God's salvation economy for man.|

And it all happened to Isaiah without him having to reach any conclusions from his natural man reasoning.

This being the reality of God's salvation of man... That man has no part in it other than to receive what God gives, and even our receiving ability is of God (no man comes to God of our own accord, God must draw us to Himself)... The phrase "...believe in...", when consider as something that man does in and out of our natural man... Is just error.

Whereas, to "...believe in[to]..." defines what actually takes place... As God draws us "...into..." His economy of salvation for man.

Before a person is saved, this person is just in death and darkness... Which is just nothingness before God... And nothingness cannot produce anything good (of life) before God... And so God must choose within Himself to draw dead nothingness to Himself and give this dead nothingness eternal life.
And God carries this out... in... Christ Jesus (all things are in Him, through Him, and unto Him)... This is why God causes the person that He is saving to be drawn... INTO... Christ Jesus... By causing that person to believe... INTO... Him.

And this is why the Greek word used in John 3:16 isn't "...en..." (transliteration), which means in... But is "...eis..." (transliteration), which means into.

Amen.

-​

God is not a person in a clown suit, so God can not lie, or make outlandish promises (or whatever point you were trying to make with a clown).

 

[Above & Beyond]

-​

God is not a person in a clown suit, so God can not lie, or make outlandish promises (or whatever point you were trying to make with a clown).

It's truly unfortunate that my metaphor seemed to have gone right over your head... May the Lord correct this for you.

And FYI... Scripture tells us that the world sees the things of God as foolishness... Which in the eyes of people, a clown is.



Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

-​

God is not a person in a clown suit, so God can not lie, or make outlandish promises (or whatever point you were trying to make with a clown).

I wonder, d taylor... Why is it difficult for you to receive that we believe INTO Christ Jesus?

Isn't believing INTO Him far more wonderful than just using our fallen human reasoning to believe in Him?

I would think so... Unless you are adamant on holding to and promoting your flesh.

Amen.