Believe in miracles but don’t depend on them

[Strong in Him]

Miracles destroy our freedom to choose !

If we would see miracles all the time around us we would loose our choice not to believe in God, because we would have NO CHOICE, we would be FORCED TO BELIEVE.

No we wouldn't.
The Pharisees saw Jesus driving demons out of people, and said that it was Satan who was giving him the power to do it. Another time they saw him feed 5000 people and then demanded a sign that he had authority to teach them.
Some of the crowd at Pentecost heard people speaking in tongues and dismissed them as being drunk.
Pharoah saw many miracles - plagues - in Egypt and he still wouldn't let the Israelites go.
If someone has made up their mind not to believe, miracles make no difference - they explain them away.

Miracles were given for the SHORT PERIOD to help grow earlier Church.... To this day there here NO LONGER... THEY ARE GONE:

They most certainly are not! I've read dozens of accounts of miracles; people who have no money, pray, and receive from God; people who are healed, blessed, given jobs, gifts, words of knowledge, prophesy etc.
It seems you are looking in the wrong place - or maybe not looking at all.

8 The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;
(1Co.13:8)

prophecies, they shall become useless;

tongues, they shall cease;

Well this already happened. So no more more miracles ... sorry..

All these things will cease one day, because we shall be in heaven and no longer need them. But it hasn't happened yet.

Why would you think, and how could you prove, that it had?

 

[Strong in Him]

I have heard of people going to healing meetings to prove God does not heal and the person a fake, only to find themselves healed .
They did not believe in miracles but got one anyway.

Me too.
I've also heard of people who pray, have no faith at all that anyone can hear it, and yet get an answer.

God will do what God will do. He doesn't depend on our faith - we can do nothing to earn his gifts anyway.

 

[JimB]

I have heard of people going to healing meetings to prove God does not heal and the person a fake, only to find themselves healed .
They did not believe in miracles but got one anyway.

Me too.
I've also heard of people who pray, have no faith at all that anyone can hear it, and yet get an answer.

God will do what God will do. He doesn't depend on our faith - we can do nothing to earn his gifts anyway.

I have heard things like this, too, although I have yet to meet such a person. We “hear” lots of things, including lies, exaggerations, legends, etc. passed off as true, but the Bible says that things should be confirmed by witnesses (Matt. 18.16; 2 Cor. 13.1; etc.).

Can you cite references for this allegation?

 

[K2K]

Have you thought this statement through? Can your prove it?

Jesus told Nazareth that He couldn't do great miracles because of their faith.

Jesus told others that according to there faith they are healed.

Jesus told others that there faith made them well.

God said with their ears they barely hear and with their eyes they don't see otherwise they would turn to Him and He would heal them.


People God want to heal you!!! He may do it in His time and His way, but He wants to heal you, but He can't do it if you don't believe!!!



By faith we are we are saved, and that salvation is going to give you a life without sickness. He told us to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

HAVE WE THOUGHT THROUGH WHAT IS MEANS TO ACTUALLY HAVE HIS WILL DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN??

IF WE DON'T THINK THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE SICKNESS IN HEAVEN, AND HEAVEN IS HIS WILL FOR US, THEN HE DOESN'T WANT US TO BE SICK. THAT IS NOT HIS WILL. BUT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE FAITH TO GET HEAVEN AND HIS WILL ON EARTH AS IT IS IS HEAVEN. THINK ABOUT IT!!

 

[Strong in Him]

I have heard things like this, too, although I have yet to meet such a person. We “hear” lots of things, including lies, exaggerations, legends, etc. passed off as true, but the Bible says that things should be confirmed by witnesses (Matt. 18.16; 2 Cor. 13.1; etc.).

Can you cite references for this allegation?

Well actually I've read about things like this rather than heard them.

Margie Williers, in her book "Awaiting the healer" wrote of someone who sat in front of her at a Kathryn Kulman healing, swearing at God because he was in so much pain. He was healed, and literally went from saying "I don't believe in God" to "yes I do, he's real!"

I think it was Francis McNutt's book in which I read that someone had said a prayer for healing "without the slightest expectation that anything would happen" (it did.)

I have definitely read in other books that people prayed for healing or to be filled with the Spirit, not expecting anything to happen. I have read many books and can't remember references, or even where I read them. But there have been accounts of people praying without faith, and yet receiving.

God is good.

 

[JimB]

I did not say I doubted things like this happen. In fact, I believe they do. What I am objecting to is citing alleged undocumented (i.e., un-witnessed), second-hand reports that people have only “heard” (or read) about. Such hearsay reports would not hold up in any courtroom in America and shouldn’t be reported as fact by Christians without some sort of verification. Scripture cautions us against it.

 

[Strong in Him]

I did not say I doubted things like this happen. In fact, I believe they do. What I am objecting to is citing alleged undocumented (i.e., un-witnessed), second-hand reports that people have only “heard” (or read) about. Such hearsay reports would not hold up in any courtroom in America and shouldn’t be reported as fact by Christians without some sort of verification. Scripture cautions us against it.

Fair enough.
Although I did say only that I had heard of (though I should have said 'read about) such situations. I wasn't saying it's standard practice, and often happens, far less holding it up as doctrine or encouraging people never to pray in faith because it's not needed.

Maybe I didn't say it very well, but my only intention was to say that sometimes God heals without any demonstrable faith on our part. Jesus didn't always ask people if they had faith before he healed them. The man at the beautiful gate asked Peter and John for money, not healing.
And I know for a fact that I went forward for healing from M.E many times; I had faith, the healers/prayer ministers had faith. Yet when God did heal me, it was totally out of the blue - and I didn't recognise it, at first.

 

[jiminpa]

I did not say I doubted things like this happen. In fact, I believe they do. What I am objecting to is citing alleged undocumented (i.e., un-witnessed), second-hand reports that people have only “heard” (or read) about. Such hearsay reports would not hold up in any courtroom in America and shouldn’t be reported as fact by Christians without some sort of verification. Scripture cautions us against it.

You didn't say that you doubt things like that happen, you just set a standard for God to have to meet based on your own rather creative interpretation of scripture. I've had God do miracles in my life that no one else has seen, and if knowing that God just does the impossible has the potential to build someone else's faith I will tell about them no matter what random standard you want to hold God to, as if He answers to you. If God meets your little test will you raise the bar on Him? I think you will. But don't worry you won't hear anything about the specifics of those miracles on this site. It's too hostile an environment for any real discussion.

 

[whatfor]

I did not say I doubted things like this happen. In fact, I believe they do. What I am objecting to is citing alleged undocumented (i.e., un-witnessed), second-hand reports that people have only “heard” (or read) about. Such hearsay reports would not hold up in any courtroom in America and shouldn’t be reported as fact by Christians without some sort of verification. Scripture cautions us against it.

That would rule out sharing a lot of testimonies of what God has done .
Maybe the Holy Spirit is the witness, as a result you know in your heart it is true.

 

[jiminpa]

That would rule out sharing a lot of testimonies of what God has done .
Maybe the Holy Spirit is the witness, as a result you know in your heart it is true.

The Holy Spirit is not recognized as a witness in the court of law, sorry. I guess he needs to go back and get a recognized law degree.

 

[whatfor]

Sorry in things of God , you cares about mans courts.

 

[jiminpa]

Sorry in things of God , you cares about mans courts.

Personally, I agree with you. I'm just reiterating a standard that has been presented on this forum:

Originally Posted by JimB
Such hearsay reports would not hold up in any courtroom in America and shouldn’t be reported as fact by Christians without some sort of verification.

If the Holy Spirit isn't recognized in any courtroom He apparently has no business quickening truth to someone.

 

[whatfor]

I know you agree.

Based on the view given by some the Bible could , or at least some of it could fit this.

 

[jiminpa]

I know you agree.

Based on the view given by some the Bible could , or at least some of it could fit this.

I've noticed.

 

[K2K]

I did not say I doubted things like this happen. In fact, I believe they do. What I am objecting to is citing alleged undocumented (i.e., un-witnessed), second-hand reports that people have only “heard” (or read) about. Such hearsay reports would not hold up in any courtroom in America and shouldn’t be reported as fact by Christians without some sort of verification. Scripture cautions us against it.

If somebody glorifies God by their testamony, is that some un-witnessed, second-hand report?

God knows all things and we have a relationship with Him. If you want a first hand trustworthy report, ask God!!

But a scoffer that does not believe in God says, 'Oh that testamony about God can not be verified, so I can not consider it', when the testamony was given just so that they might turn to God.


I'm not saying that someone couldn't make-up or misreport a testimony to glorify themselves, but loves believes all things. So we believe that God has a purpose for all the things that occur, and we need to talk to Him about everything (take everything to God in prayer.) A scoffer doesn't do that, but rather leans on their own understanding and in such a way shows their disbelief that God exists.

We tend to be men of little faith, and need to remember that about ourselves. With little faith, we have trouble depending on God for all our needs. We sometimes scoff at something instead of taking it to God for answers. We forget that God is there to answer our questions, or think that He might not be willing or able to actually talk to us in words that we can pick up from Him. WE NEED TO REALIZE THIS ABOUT OURSELVES SO THAT WE TURN TO HIM MORE INSTEAD OF LEANING ON OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING!

 

[K2K]

When we ask 'Can we depend on miracles' we are really asking 'Can we depend upon God for our needs even if it takes a miracle'

Jesus gave us the example by bless a few loaves of bread and a few fish and feeding thousands. I read a book written by Hiedi Baker and she depended upon God enough that she took a very little food which was all she had, prayed, and started serving the very little food to a great multitude and it kept going untill all had been served.

I believe those things happened. I have seen God do numerouse miracles in my life. Still, I too always have problem believing Him for the next miracle. I too have problems and fight with thoughts that tell me the next time He is not going to come through.

So this topic or question which it really seems better to ask it like "Can God be trusted to come through with a miracle when you need it?" instead of "Can we depend on miracles", strikes home with me. It is one I too struggle with, even though I have seen Him do it over, and over, and over.

My mind says, 'Yes, God can come through. God does miracles, and He will do them for me when needed", but another voice says 'God can't be trusted. He will let you down."

When I specifically talk to and listen to what the Lord has to say to me, He says things like, "Karl, I am a great God", and "Karl, havn't I always taken care of you. ", and "Karl, I love you."

So I keep doing my best to believe that voice. And I have trusted Him even when it meant denying Him or lossing a job, and even when I meant spending all my money on a ministry that He asked me to do. So I am in a position where I have to depend upon Him to come through for me, but I still wonder about the next hurdle. The next hurdle always looks the biggest, though it is not any different than the others.

He'll come through. He always has. I will see more miracles and I'm not talking about the coincidences that always happen around Him. Still I am not sure I could depend upon Him like Hiedi Baker. So I admire people like that, who depend upon miracles.

 

[JimB]

That would rule out sharing a lot of testimonies of what God has done .
Maybe the Holy Spirit is the witness, as a result you know in your heart it is true.

Yes, it would rule out a lot of testimonies. IMO, every testimony should be taken with a grain of salt before it is swallowed.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Too many people rely on miracles rather than exercising faith.

 

[JimB]

If by "faith" you mean trust, not just an exaggerated optimism, then I agree 100%.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I have heard things like this, too, although I have yet to meet such a person. We “hear” lots of things, including lies, exaggerations, legends, etc. passed off as true, but the Bible says that things should be confirmed by witnesses (Matt. 18.16; 2 Cor. 13.1; etc.).

Can you cite references for this allegation?

ABSOLUTELY - how many do you want.

I'll cite the following - I am a first hand witness to:

1. We had a meeting and a blind gentleman came. From his own words, he didn't believe God did miracles. He came because his daughter "dragged me here". In the middle of praise and worship, (him sitting doing nothing BTW), God opened his eyes. It was confirmed by over 200 witnesses in attendance.

2. In healing school a lady came with a fibroidal tumor that was wrapped around her intestines and liver came as a last resort. We encouraged her to stay and just let her faith be built by listening to the Word. No one prayed, in the middle of a sermon she got up and ran from the room looking like she was going to be sick. One of our ladies followed her to the ladies room to be of possible help, where she vomited out the tumor. The doctors confirmed the tumor was completely gone.


3. We had a 14yr old girl injured in a car accident where on impact her brain was torn from it's stem. (Yes, doctor confirmed, you could see it on the MRI images). She was life flighted to ECMC trauma and kept alive by machine until her parents could come and say their goodbyes. A lady from our church was at their home when they got the call and accompanied them to the hospital. A priest had just given last rights. Debra (the lady from church), felt an anointing and laid her hand on the girls leg and said, "Lord, you said in Your Word, "with long life will I satisfy them" , well 14 isn't long life and we are not satisfied.

The girl walked out of the hospital three days later.

Not one of those is a lie, exaggeration or legend. I was first hand witness to each.

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