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Believe in Genesis Chap 1-3?!

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TheBeginningSeasons

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As a Christian you first picked up your Bible and started reading Genesis right? Even if you didn't at some point you had to have read the first 3 chapters of Genesis, God creating the heavens and the earth. He also created man. SO what is the debate about? There should be no exceptions of believing it, or trying to say that there is a time gap, or that it is a metaphor used in literature for dramatic fling. :doh: Come on, if you believe in Christ you have to believe in God creating the everything for man! We are the center of his affection and love! Don't you believe that?! I DO!!! IF you don't, then you should really sit down and look at what the foundation of your Christian faith is, is it Jesus? Is it God, or what is it? If you don't believe God's own account of how He created us all and brought this world and universe to exisit then what? You believe just because something is taught in schools, even Christian colleges, that it must be true?!:confused: NO, they are wrong. Stand fast in your beliefs that God is the Almight maker of this world and You and I, please do not be offened by my Love for Jesus. But I ask you, if you do not believe in the Scripture of Genesis how can you believe in the rest? God bless you all!!!!
 

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I wrote a short essay on this topic a while back. Just click the bracketed footnotes to read the supporting Scripture passages.


Both Scripture and creation speak the truth

The New Testament proclaims that the Author of life is also the Way, Truth and Life: Christ Jesus.[1] All that exists declares his glory and divine attributes.[2] The Word is revealed in the Scriptures which speak of him and the universe formed by him.[3] These two witnesses cannot ultimately contradict. Their truth points to the one who is Truth himself.

Scripture: God condescends to speak

God's spoken and written word takes many forms. Jesus spoke in parables, he exaggerated,[4] he inspired visions.[5] About a third of the Old Testament is poetry. Often events are recounted in evocative formats,[6] including songs, riddles and fables.[7] God's thoughts and actions are frequently anthropomorphized.[8]

The Bible's most obviously historical books reveal sources, whether direct eyewitnesses, investigation, or other books.[9] When God reveals something no human has yet seen, whether to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, John or others, the style is frequently apocalyptic, poetic and full of symbolism. When Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God or eschatological events, he frequently used parable, simile and metaphor.

God speaks in ways that accommodate human ignorance. Daniel received a vision of a tree that only makes sense from a flat earth perspective.[10] Ancient Hebrews did not understand the brain or even have a word for it, so God spoke of thoughts arising from the heart and kidneys, in keeping with the science of their time.[11] The sun is described as moving -- like an athlete -- around a fixed earth; this is treated as literally as the movement of the wind and water as they cycle.[12] The narrator of Genesis implies that Jacob's trickery with his flocks was effective, though genetics tells us differently.[13]

Why did God not reveal the nature of the brain, earth's orbit, genetics, or the enormity of stars and space? Because that is not the purpose of Scripture. God gave us dominion over the earth, which implies a mandate to understand it.[14] The Lord allowed Adam to examine each beast to determine an appropriate name.[15] He is also patient as we unravel mysteries in creation, not spoiling our exploration by blurting every surprise before we uncover it.

Genesis 1

If the creation of the world described in Genesis were plain historical prose, it would be virtually unprecedented within Scripture. Genesis 1 does not claim to be God's perspective; it is recorded in the third person. There is no introductory statement telling us whether it is parable, vision, or literal account. In Job we have a creation account written as God's speech, yet it is even more poetic.[16] Psalm 104, a creation hymn, echoes Genesis yet describes the creation of food and creatures as an ongoing event not confined to three days. The New Testament interprets God's seventh day Sabbath rest as ongoing and not a literal cessation from work.[17]

Creation: a witness without artifice

Interpretations of nature may be wrong, and nature can be used symbolically, but in and of itself the revelation of nature is entirely truthful and literal. Our universe speaks of a beginning 13.7 billion years ago. Meteorites, moon rocks and earth rocks agree that our solar system formed roughly 4.5 billion years ago. Tree rings, ice cores and lake varves document a long, varied history within our biosphere. Fossils show change in living organisms over time. DNA shows relatedness.

Genesis 2-4

Just as astronomy can deepen our understanding of Joshua's long day, science can also shed further light on what the Bible reveals about creation. Genesis 2-4 is a story about human history the way Ezekiel 16 is a story about Israel's history. The characters in the story represent more than individuals, which is why Genesis and Paul sometimes refer to Adam as encompassing more than one person, including Eve.[18] Genesis shows a progression from gathering food to raising livestock and crops to building cities, leading to musicians and ironworks.[19] However, it shows these advances, which continue to today, coinciding with rejection of God, just as Paul declares more prosaically in Romans.[20]

In Genesis 2-3, we already know that symbolism is being used from the text itself. The serpent and the tree of life both appear to be more than a literal serpent and magical tree.[21] The curse of the serpent seems to have far more than just snakes in mind.[22] If the other characters, tree and curses are interpreted in similar fashion, they accord with what creation reveals. Paleontology shows that the major differences between earlier primates and humans include brain size and hip structure. As humans walked upright, their hips became more rigid and narrow; as they gained intelligence, their skulls increased in size. Genesis reveals a consequence of our grasping for knowledge: increased pain in childbirth.[23]

A new creation

Our rejection of God is not the end of the story. While creation is presently subjected by God to an unjust ruler -- humanity -- it will be restored through the work of Jesus as he builds his church.[24] While only God can resurrect our bodies and conquer death, he graciously allows us to partner with his kingdom work. God calls us to join him in desiring and bringing his kingdom to earth, as it is in heaven, so that ultimately God will be all in all.[25]

Scripture references:
  1. Acts 3:15; John 1:1-5,9-10,14; 14:6
  2. Psalm 19:1-6; Romans 1:20; 10:17-18
  3. John 5:39,45-47; 10:37-38; Hebrews 11:3
  4. Matthew 23:24; Mark 10:25, Luke 6:41
  5. Acts 9:10-12; 18:9-10; 2 Corinthians 12:1-4; Revelation 1:1-2
  6. Psalm 74:13-17; Isaiah 51:9-10; Ezekiel 16:1-58
  7. Exodus 15:1-21; Ezekiel 17:1-10,22-24; Judges 9:7-15
  8. Genesis 3:8-9; 6:5-6; 8:21; 11:6-7; Exodus 15:6-12,16; 31:18; 32:11-14; Judges 10:16; 1 Samuel 15:10-11,27-29; 2 Samuel 24:16; Isaiah 62:8; Jonah 3:9-4:4; Luke 11:20; Acts 4:27-30
  9. Numbers 21:14; Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18; 1 Kings 11:41; 14:19,29; 1 Chronicles 9:1; 29:29; 2 Chronicles 9:29; 12:15; 13:22; 16:11; 20:34; 24:27; 26:22; 27:7; 32:32; 33:18; 33:19; Nehemiah 1:1-2; 12:23; Luke 1:1-4; John 21:24
  10. Daniel 4:10-12
  11. Psalm 7:9; 16:7; 26:2; Jeremiah 17:10 (see footnotes)
  12. Joshua 10:12-14; 1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalm 19:4-6; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; Ecclesiastes 1:4-7
  13. Genesis 30:37-43 (note the "thus" in the final verse)
  14. Genesis 1:26-28; 2:15; Psalm 8:3-9; ; Proverbs 25:2
  15. Genesis 2:19-20
  16. Job 38-39
  17. Hebrews 4:1-11; John 5:16-17
  18. Genesis 1:26; 5:2; Romans 5:12-14 (see footnotes)
  19. Genesis 2:16; 4:2; 4:17; 4:21-22
  20. Romans 1:18-32
  21. Revelation 12:9; Revelation 2:7; 22:1-2,14-20
  22. Genesis 3:14-15
  23. Genesis 3:6,16
  24. Psalm 8:3-9; Romans 8:18-23
  25. Matthew 6:9-10; 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
 
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tommiegrant

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Extirpated Wildlife said:
You can't. You can not have the capacity to TRULY trust and believe Jesus is God.

No if, ands, or buts.

I highly disagree, for that is oneof the functions of the Holy Spirit in the believer to confirm the truth of Christ. If we speak of manly ability then no we can not however for the Christan we must look beyond our natural ability to the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. With this view in mind it is not oonly possible but logical to trust and believe that Jesus is God. As an example just look at the martyrs for the faith you can not tell me that Polycarp did not really believe when he rejoiced at the stake when being burned or that Stephen when being stoned prayed for the forgiveness of his attackers how can his belief be doubted. Just look the scripture is full of examples of this then look at history and even more examples thrust themselves foward.
In Christ, Tom
 
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LewisWildermuth

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As a Christian why would I wish to ignore the culture and ideas of the authors of the Bible in favor of a concept from a culture that did not exist until long after the writing of the Bible? Why should I accept this alien cultures idea that literal truth is more important than spiritual truth over that of the culture that was inspired to write the Bible and their idea that spiritual truth is more important than literal truth?
 
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ebia

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LewisWildermuth said:
As a Christian why would I wish to ignore the culture and ideas of the authors of the Bible in favor of a concept from a culture that did not exist until long after the writing of the Bible? Why should I accept this alien cultures idea that literal truth is more important than spiritual truth over that of the culture that was inspired to write the Bible and their idea that spiritual truth is more important than literal truth?
:thumbsup:
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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tommiegrant said:
As an example just look at the martyrs for the faith you can not tell me that Polycarp did not really believe when he rejoiced at the stake when being burned or that Stephen when being stoned prayed for the forgiveness of his attackers how can his belief be doubted.

I don't follow.

My statement was too absolute, however, overall I do believe it as in a stereotypical sense.
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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LewisWildermuth said:
As a Christian why would I wish to ignore the culture and ideas of the authors of the Bible in favor of a concept from a culture that did not exist until long after the writing of the Bible? Why should I accept this alien cultures idea that literal truth is more important than spiritual truth over that of the culture that was inspired to write the Bible and their idea that spiritual truth is more important than literal truth?

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems you are saying you don't believe the first couple of chapters as real. Let me know if I am wrong and disregard the rest.

So you believe Adam wasn't real, the way sin entered into the world is wrong, and why the story of how birth has become pain is false and so on, and the reason is? I am not a literalist. I might overeact at time, but I am not a literalist. Contextualist, i strive to be. If something is absolutely true, the there is a spiritual truth as well. But I do agree that my absolute statement was more emotional than anything a few post up and I certainly do apologize.
 
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Mathematician

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TheBeginningSeasons said:
As a Christian you first picked up your Bible and started reading Genesis right? Even if you didn't at some point you had to have read the first 3 chapters of Genesis, God creating the heavens and the earth. He also created man. SO what is the debate about? There should be no exceptions of believing it, or trying to say that there is a time gap, or that it is a metaphor used in literature for dramatic fling.

Believing what Genesis says and believing your interpretation of it are two different things.

Gen. 2:4 says that the six days of creation were one "day" and were many "generations of the heavens." The last 6000 years have not shown us even one generation of the atmosphere. So each day of creation was much longer than 6000 years. Maybe even millions or billions of years.
 
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TheBeginningSeasons

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-Mercury- said:
I wrote a short essay on this topic a while back. Just click the bracketed footnotes to read the supporting Scripture passages.


Both Scripture and creation speak the truth

The New Testament proclaims that the Author of life is also the Way, Truth and Life: Christ Jesus.[1] All that exists declares his glory and divine attributes.[2] The Word is revealed in the Scriptures which speak of him and the universe formed by him.[3] These two witnesses cannot ultimately contradict. Their truth points to the one who is Truth himself.

Scripture: God condescends to speak

God's spoken and written word takes many forms. Jesus spoke in parables, he exaggerated,[4] he inspired visions.[5] About a third of the Old Testament is poetry. Often events are recounted in evocative formats,[6] including songs, riddles and fables.[7] God's thoughts and actions are frequently anthropomorphized.[8]

The Bible's most obviously historical books reveal sources, whether direct eyewitnesses, investigation, or other books.[9] When God reveals something no human has yet seen, whether to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, John or others, the style is frequently apocalyptic, poetic and full of symbolism. When Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God or eschatological events, he frequently used parable, simile and metaphor.

God speaks in ways that accommodate human ignorance. Daniel received a vision of a tree that only makes sense from a flat earth perspective.[10] Ancient Hebrews did not understand the brain or even have a word for it, so God spoke of thoughts arising from the heart and kidneys, in keeping with the science of their time.[11] The sun is described as moving -- like an athlete -- around a fixed earth; this is treated as literally as the movement of the wind and water as they cycle.[12] The narrator of Genesis implies that Jacob's trickery with his flocks was effective, though genetics tells us differently.[13]

Why did God not reveal the nature of the brain, earth's orbit, genetics, or the enormity of stars and space? Because that is not the purpose of Scripture. God gave us dominion over the earth, which implies a mandate to understand it.[14] The Lord allowed Adam to examine each beast to determine an appropriate name.[15] He is also patient as we unravel mysteries in creation, not spoiling our exploration by blurting every surprise before we uncover it.

Genesis 1

If the creation of the world described in Genesis were plain historical prose, it would be virtually unprecedented within Scripture. Genesis 1 does not claim to be God's perspective; it is recorded in the third person. There is no introductory statement telling us whether it is parable, vision, or literal account. In Job we have a creation account written as God's speech, yet it is even more poetic.[16] Psalm 104, a creation hymn, echoes Genesis yet describes the creation of food and creatures as an ongoing event not confined to three days. The New Testament interprets God's seventh day Sabbath rest as ongoing and not a literal cessation from work.[17]

Creation: a witness without artifice

Interpretations of nature may be wrong, and nature can be used symbolically, but in and of itself the revelation of nature is entirely truthful and literal. Our universe speaks of a beginning 13.7 billion years ago. Meteorites, moon rocks and earth rocks agree that our solar system formed roughly 4.5 billion years ago. Tree rings, ice cores and lake varves document a long, varied history within our biosphere. Fossils show change in living organisms over time. DNA shows relatedness.

Genesis 2-4

Just as astronomy can deepen our understanding of Joshua's long day, science can also shed further light on what the Bible reveals about creation. Genesis 2-4 is a story about human history the way Ezekiel 16 is a story about Israel's history. The characters in the story represent more than individuals, which is why Genesis and Paul sometimes refer to Adam as encompassing more than one person, including Eve.[18] Genesis shows a progression from gathering food to raising livestock and crops to building cities, leading to musicians and ironworks.[19] However, it shows these advances, which continue to today, coinciding with rejection of God, just as Paul declares more prosaically in Romans.[20]

In Genesis 2-3, we already know that symbolism is being used from the text itself. The serpent and the tree of life both appear to be more than a literal serpent and magical tree.[21] The curse of the serpent seems to have far more than just snakes in mind.[22] If the other characters, tree and curses are interpreted in similar fashion, they accord with what creation reveals. Paleontology shows that the major differences between earlier primates and humans include brain size and hip structure. As humans walked upright, their hips became more rigid and narrow; as they gained intelligence, their skulls increased in size. Genesis reveals a consequence of our grasping for knowledge: increased pain in childbirth.[23]

A new creation

Our rejection of God is not the end of the story. While creation is presently subjected by God to an unjust ruler -- humanity -- it will be restored through the work of Jesus as he builds his church.[24] While only God can resurrect our bodies and conquer death, he graciously allows us to partner with his kingdom work. God calls us to join him in desiring and bringing his kingdom to earth, as it is in heaven, so that ultimately God will be all in all.[25]

Scripture does tell us about the accounts of God's creation not only in Genesis but they all back it, they don't say anything about it being poetic, that is just an interpretation or personal view. It doesn't matter if there is an introduction in Genesis, the author simple wrote what he was being showed by the Holy Spirit. There is nothing hinting at a parable. Sorry, your paper has some good points, but it is not based upon true direct beliefs in Scripture.
 
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Marshall Janzen

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TheBeginningSeasons said:
Scripture does tell us about the accounts of God's creation not only in Genesis but they all back it
They back it and also interpret it through the additional details they provide. For instance, the creation of creatures and food that Genesis 1 describes as happening over three days Psalm 104 describes as ongoing actions by God. Jesus reveals in John 5:16-17 that God has never rested from his work, so an over-literal reading of Genesis 2:1-3 or Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 must not be correct.

they don't say anything about it being poetic, that is just an interpretation or personal view.
I think I said much the same thing. "There is no introductory statement telling us whether it is parable, vision, or literal account." Why, in the absence of this, do you assume it is a literal account? As I pointed out, the Bible's most obviously historical books reveal sources, whether direct eyewitnesses, investigation, or other books. The early chapters of Genesis do none of this. Why should we expect that God revealed the beginning of the world in such a markedly different fashion than he revealed the end of the world or other things that no human had yet witnessed?

It doesn't matter if there is an introduction in Genesis, the author simple wrote what he was being showed by the Holy Spirit. There is nothing hinting at a parable.
Do you take Ezekiel 16 as a literal history of Jerusalem? If not, why not? Note that, unlike the following chapter, the text doesn't indicate that it is a parable.
 
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ebia

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Extirpated Wildlife said:
Maybe I am wrong, but it seems you are saying you don't believe the first couple of chapters as real.
He is saying that they are not factual. Truthful yes, factual, no.
 
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ebia

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TheBeginningSeasons said:
Scripture does tell us about the accounts of God's creation not only in Genesis but they all back it, they don't say anything about it being poetic, that is just an interpretation or personal view. It doesn't matter if there is an introduction in Genesis, the author simple wrote what he was being showed by the Holy Spirit. There is nothing hinting at a parable.
Other than the whole style and genre of the piece.

"Literally true except when the text explitily says otherwise" is an unfounded assumption, and one that is neither traditional nor consistent with the world view of ancient peoples.

Sorry, your paper has some good points, but it is not based upon true direct beliefs in Scripture.
Translated:
Sorry, your paper has some good points, but it is not based upon my direct beliefs in Scripture
 
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Marshall Janzen

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Another comment on this:
TheBeginningSeasons said:
It doesn't matter if there is an introduction in Genesis, the author simple wrote what he was being showed by the Holy Spirit.
Do you mean like how John recorded in Revelation what he was shown by Christ? Do you think Revelation is also entirely literal with no symbolism? If not, I don't think you're being consistent.
 
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Edmond

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Extirpated Wildlife said:
You can't. You can not have the capacity to TRULY trust and believe Jesus is God.
No if, ands, or buts.
None of us have the capacity to believe anything about God without His assisting mercy. Paul says that NONE seek after God, no not ONE. It is the enlightment of God alone that allows anyone to even believe that God is. "And there was the true light which, coming into the world, enlighteneth every man."

God gives to every man enough light to know that He is. Each then has the choice, to harken to the recongition of the truth that light presents or to reject it. Those who choose to follow that light come to the light that their deeds may be shown as being from God. Those who choose to reject the light that was given. They run from the light. That is their condemnation.

Paul reveals..."For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

Those who respond to the light given them will personally find Jesus. He will not deny that to who so ever will come to Him. When they acknowledge their need for Him and for His forgiveness, He will then come into them. When you recieve Him, you recieve also His faith. It is the presence of His faith that give you the capacity to truly trust and believe Jesus is God. His faith gives you he capacity to believe Him in many more things. It is not our faith. It is His faith working in us and through us as we allow His tests to refine it.

For...He is..."Jesus, the author and the perfector of faith..."

-----------------------------------------
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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ebia said:
He is saying that they are not factual. Truthful yes, factual, no.

Truthful to what extreme of liberalism? Adam didn't exist? Sin is a natural state and that the sinning of Adam is just our way of allegorical way of explaining things to why bad things happen?
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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Edmond said:
None of us have the capacity to believe anything about God without His assisting mercy. Paul says that NONE seek after God, no not ONE. It is the enlightment of God alone that allows anyone to even believe that God is. "And there was the true light which, coming into the world, enlighteneth every man."

God gives to every man enough light to know that He is. Each then has the choice, to harken to the recongition of the truth that light presents or to reject it. Those who choose to follow that light come to the light that their deeds may be shown as being from God. Those who choose to reject the light that was given. They run from the light. That is their condemnation.

Paul reveals..."For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

Those who respond to the light given them will personally find Jesus. He will not deny that to who so ever will come to Him. When they acknowledge their need for Him and for His forgiveness, He will then come into them. When you recieve Him, you recieve also His faith. It is the presence of His faith that give you the capacity to truly trust and believe Jesus is God. His faith gives you he capacity to believe Him in many more things. It is not our faith. It is His faith working in us and through us as we allow His tests to refine it.

For...He is..."Jesus, the author and the perfector of faith..."

-----------------------------------------

Yes. I agree. But you can't believe in Jesus without a certain amount of information. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
 
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chaoschristian

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TheBeginningSeasons said:
As a Christian you first picked up your Bible and started reading Genesis right? Even if you didn't at some point you had to have read the first 3 chapters of Genesis, God creating the heavens and the earth. He also created man. SO what is the debate about? There should be no exceptions of believing it, or trying to say that there is a time gap, or that it is a metaphor used in literature for dramatic fling. :doh: Come on, if you believe in Christ you have to believe in God creating the everything for man! We are the center of his affection and love! Don't you believe that?! I DO!!! IF you don't, then you should really sit down and look at what the foundation of your Christian faith is, is it Jesus? Is it God, or what is it? If you don't believe God's own account of how He created us all and brought this world and universe to exisit then what? You believe just because something is taught in schools, even Christian colleges, that it must be true?!:confused: NO, they are wrong. Stand fast in your beliefs that God is the Almight maker of this world and You and I, please do not be offened by my Love for Jesus. But I ask you, if you do not believe in the Scripture of Genesis how can you believe in the rest? God bless you all!!!!

Believing that God is the source of creation and accepting the Genesis account as literal truth are two seperate things. The Bible is just one tool that God provided to us in our attempts to understand Him and His creation. He also provides the Holy Spirit to guide our hearts. He also provides us with thinking, reasoning minds to use to examine His creation. You can't just rely solely on one of these things. Relying solely on the Bible puts you in the position of denying the reality that exists right in front of you. Relying on the Holy Spirit solely puts you in a position of being able to understand some level of revealed truth (perhaps) but having absolutely no basis to found any of your claims upon. Relying solely on your reason and science might yield alot of information about the universe, but it will leave you bereft of meaning.

All three have to be taken together. When I take all three together, I am led to believe that God is the Creator as the Bible tells us, and I am led to accept that our scientific understanding of how this was accomplished is superior to what the Bible says about it, and I am led to know in my heart that this is acceptable to God.

Finally, let me just add that I really appreciate your attempt to seek to understand the view point of others. But I do not appreciate the fact that you felt it necessary to also include an attack on my faith. At the heart of your text, you are basically saying that if I don't read the Bible exactly as you do, then I am not a Christian. May I ask what or who gave your earthly authority to render that judgement?

<RANT MODE ON>
I allow for the fact that others might disagree with me. I appreciate a good encounter with others who do disagree with me and the exchange of ideas that can take place. There is so much that can be learned. Yet in all my time of doing this I am simply stunned with how often and how quickly is devolves into the "You're-Not-A-Real-Christian" Bible-Hammer (TM) bash fest. Am I missing something here? During the course of unaccountable discussions and debates I have yet to accuse another of 'not being a real Christian.' Who am I to judge another's faith? The answer is, I am no one to judge another's faith. And that holds true for all of us.

So please, can we keep the Bible-Hammers (TM) in our toyboxes and focus on concepts, ideas, evidence, reasoning and logic?
<RANT MODE OFF>
 
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