Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Of course, because we set fire to him after the last silly episode.
"As for your last question, it is based on the presupposition that my comment had anything to do with merit"
Thanks for clearing that up. It just seems that being "judged worthy" would mean a person has enough merit to be worthy, which would be the opposite of grace. I don't think you meant that.
"all good things come from God. But so does evil."
How can God punish evil if He is the author of it?
As much as I like the view of the Swiss Catholic theologian Hans Urs Von Balthasar, that is permissible to hope that all will be saved, his teaching runs counter to the bulk of Christian tradition and certainly to the teachings contained in the Athanasian Creed.
I don't see what's wrong with believing in universal reconciliation. It was certainly the belief of many in the early Church, and if one reads the Bible carefully, one can see that this concept doesn't contradict the spirit of many passages.
Conditional mortality, "soul sleep", is something I find hard to reconcile with Scriptures. Nevertheless, there are probably a handful of Anglicans that believe it, but I'm guessing most don't.
I don't see what's wrong with believing in universal reconciliation. It was certainly the belief of many in the early Church, and if one reads the Bible carefully, one can see that this concept doesn't contradict the spirit of many passages.
Conditional mortality, "soul sleep", is something I find hard to reconcile with Scriptures. Nevertheless, there are probably a handful of Anglicans that believe it, but I'm guessing most don't.
The fact that Jesus speaks of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the number of unrepentant people who visibly die forsaking Christ, is testament that there will be those who will experience hell.
That's hard for many to stomach, but God's Justice is intermingled with God's Love. If people don't want to experience heaven, He won't make them. If people want to reject Him most visibly, He will allow them. Hell is real, and there are many experiencing its foretaste even now.
Can God surprise us? Yes. However, in actuality, Christianity has been pretty clear historically. Universalism was condemned in Ecumenical Council, so it is heretical.
In the draft version of the 39 Articles, there were the 42, one of which is pretty clear on that. Another was clear against Universalism.
If Universalism is outright heretical, then why pray or hope for it or acknowledge that God may surprise us? Or do you simply mean that it is heretical to affirm that Universalism is certain? There is a distinction.
Also, I am not sure that the fifth ecumenical council condemned any and all forms of Universalism, but possibly only a distinct brand attributed to Origen, whether Origen really held the views condemned or not. Not that there is any consensus amongst Anglicans as to whether the fifth council is ecumenical anyway.
If Universalism is outright heretical, then why pray or hope for it or acknowledge that God may surprise us? Or do you simply mean that it is heretical to affirm that Universalism is certain? There is a distinction.
Also, I am not sure that the fifth ecumenical council condemned any and all forms of Universalism, but possibly only a distinct brand attributed to Origen, whether Origen really held the views condemned or not. Not that there is any consensus amongst Anglicans as to whether the fifth council is ecumenical anyway.
Perhaps, but the Athanasian Creed, though it has a wonderful description of the Trinity, is not really an ecumenical Creed. Really, only the Nicene Creed is accepted by all branches of the Church and is what I consider the ecumenical Creed, though the Apostles Creed is orthodox and contains nothing contrary to the Scriptures or the Nicene Creed.
From ancient times there have always been those who hoped for universal salvation and prayed for it. And we do pray for all sorts and conditions of men and for their salvation. It is prudent to pray that all may be saved since we do not know the destiny of any one soul -- so pray for them all.
We know, from Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, that upon biological death, a person's soul departs for sheol/hades, which is where all souls go to await the resurrection and Christ's Second Advent. Our bodies go to the dust. There, our souls shall experience a foretaste of heaven or hell, given particular judgment.
Upon Jesus' return, the trumpet shall sound and the Kingdom of Heaven and our material plane shall be one. Then the Resurrection of the Dead occurs: our souls return to our resurrected and reconstituted bodies, healed, transfigured, and perfected, and we become actual persons again. Then these who were once dead and those who were still living at the time, who shall presumably healed, transfigured, and perfected as well, shall be given Last Judgment. Those judged worthy by the Lamb shall experience heaven and those not judged worthy shall experience hell.
Thank You for this post. Furthermore, do ANY Christians who profess the Nicene Creed believe in Universalism? I am not aware of any....The fact that Jesus speaks of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the number of unrepentant people who visibly die forsaking Christ, is testament that there will be those who will experience hell.
That's hard for many to stomach, but God's Justice is intermingled with God's Love. If people don't want to experience heaven, He won't make them. If people want to reject Him most visibly, He will allow them. Hell is real, and there are many experiencing its foretaste even now.
Can God surprise us? Yes. However, in actuality, Christianity has been pretty clear historically. Universalism was condemned in Ecumenical Council, so it is heretical.
In the draft version of the 39 Articles, there were the 42, one of which is pretty clear on that. Another was clear against Universalism.
Ok. Forgive me, I did not read this post until now.I mean "judged" and leave it at that. I don't dare to presume how God will judge, only that He will.
Is hell "endless torment"? Well, we need to define first endless torment before I can give an honest answer.
Is anything else heresy? Well, anything that denies the theology found in the Apostles' Creed when combined with that Jesus says to St. Dismas (the Repentant Thief) would seem to be clearly unorthodox.
What do I mean by this? Well, what did He say? "Today you will be with me in paradise". Well, paradise in 1st century ce Jewish and Christian theology was the "good half" of sheol; it was also known as Abraham's Bosom, and we know this from extrabiblical writing; the historical record of the time. Other writings, including those of the Bible, show this as well, like the Parable of Dives (the Rich Man) and Lazarus. Since Jesus had not ascended, where did He go? To the immediate afterlife, where he took Dismas, Abraham, and all the righteous dead with Him. The Gospel even said that people had been raised when Jesus passed.
This shows what happens when we die: there's NO immediate heaven or hell. And the Apostles' Creed says that we go to "infernos", which isn't hell, but hades. And since there is no heaven or hell under after the Judgment, and no Judgment until after the Resurrection, and no Resurrection until Christ's Second Advent (according to the Nicene Creed), then it is logical to conclude that our souls go to sheol/hades and will be raised upon the resurrected to our reconstituted bodies when Christ comes again, and then we shall be Judged and then experience either heaven or hell.
As for your last question, it is based on the presupposition that my comment had anything to do with merit. All my post says is that there will be Judgment, which is found throughout the Holy Writ. So I don't see how that is at all questionable.
I am confused. So Anglicans believe no one is in heaven or hell yet until the 2nd coming? Forgive, my ignorance.
Kind of depends what one means by "heaven", or "hell".
The ultimate hope is for, and only makes sense in, the complete restoration of all creation and the reuniting of heaven and earth.
Talk of people already in heaven almost inevitably looses all sense of that two stage reality, and reduces the hope to going to some non-earthly existence for eternity.
Ok. Thanks.
So, do the [Anglicans] the departed people are conscious of anything? Or is there "Soul sleep" until the resurrection?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?