Belief changes

Khalliqa

Junior Member
Sep 30, 2006
472
172
✟28,944.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
I don't think belief is a choice. I think it is an obligate condition that can be influenced by social pressure and information.

During discussions I have changed my mind when presented by good information. I'm not a debater, and when I go into a talk with someone it's in an effort to gain more perspective and reach mutual understanding. I'm not out to convince theists that they're wrong. I don't really care if they believe or not. But I want to understand why they believe. Likewise when I talk with those who have separate political views.

There are two types of belief. Those that can be changed with new evidence are usually not tied to ones view of their self worth or world view. If a belief is central to ones world view or self worth it won't be changed by evidence. That's why I don't try to argue with 9/11 truthers anymore.

Have I found a fellow apatheist? :-D

Well I'm only partially - I will admit I do wish for my loved ones to think rationally but I don't require them to be atheist or theist to see them as good or compatible.. character and consistency of good character mean more to me than one's dogma or the rejection of it..

Now that is something I do wish more people adopted however
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Earatha

Active Member
Feb 26, 2017
179
143
37
Oklahoma, USA
✟34,390.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
No, I just accept that there are people whose theistic beliefs will not be changed. And I also accept that so long as they aren't hurting anyone and they're happy it's none of my business. I have my own stuff to do, and I don't have time to act as a spokesperson for atheism. I care, but there are more pressing matters on my plate.

Some beliefs will not change no matter what. If you'll forgive an example, my dad got into a fight with a 9/11 truther recently online. And as my expertise is structural engineering he asked for my help. My dad hates truthers because he thinks they act to lessen or deflect guilt of what was a truly heinous act which killed many of our close friends. So I agreed to help out. I spent the better part of a month doing all the math, drawing graphs, examining blueprints, and explaining. After all this the person my dad was arguing with called me a sexist slur and accused me of being "in on it." My conclusion is either that he didn't understand what I was saying, since I had explained as I would to a freshman engineering student. If this is the case I don't have the time to teach him everything necessary to get him to understand. The sadder, and more likely conclusion, is that they didn't want to accept what I was saying, and there is nothing I can do about that.

Belief that is tied to ones self image won't be changed by evidence. And I'm so sorry for the rant.
 
Upvote 0

JD16

What Would Evolution Do?
Supporter
Jan 21, 2017
819
587
Melbourne
✟64,888.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
No, I just accept that there are people whose theistic beliefs will not be changed. And I also accept that so long as they aren't hurting anyone and they're happy it's none of my business. I have my own stuff to do, and I don't have time to act as a spokesperson for atheism. I care, but there are more pressing matters on my plate.

Some beliefs will not change no matter what. If you'll forgive an example, my dad got into a fight with a 9/11 truther recently online. And as my expertise is structural engineering he asked for my help. My dad hates truthers because he thinks they act to lessen or deflect guilt of what was a truly heinous act which killed many of our close friends. So I agreed to help out. I spent the better part of a month doing all the math, drawing graphs, examining blueprints, and explaining. After all this the person my dad was arguing with called me a sexist slur and accused me of being "in on it." My conclusion is either that he didn't understand what I was saying, since I had explained as I would to a freshman engineering student. If this is the case I don't have the time to teach him everything necessary to get him to understand. The sadder, and more likely conclusion, is that they didn't want to accept what I was saying, and there is nothing I can do about that.

Belief that is tied to ones self image won't be changed by evidence. And I'm so sorry for the rant.

Couldn't agree more,.....a wise man once told me,.....a conclusion reached by faith can never be persuaded by evidence or reason
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Khalliqa
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,741
United States
✟122,284.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Have I found a fellow apatheist? :-D

Well I'm only partially - I will admit I do wish for my loved ones to think rationally but I don't require them to be atheist or theist to see them as good or compatible.. character and consistency of good character mean more to me than one's dogma or the rejection of it..
That's kinda me. The particular question of whether or not there is a god/gods isn't important to me, personally. I'm probably an agnostic atheist, if I had to slap a label on it, but that's not what I tell people when they ask. All that does is tell someone what I don't believe. It shoves me into the framework of someone else's religion. It's practically irrelevant to my own spirituality and beliefs.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Khalliqa
Upvote 0

Khalliqa

Junior Member
Sep 30, 2006
472
172
✟28,944.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
That's kinda me. The particular question of whether or not there is a god/gods isn't important to me, personally. I'm probably an agnostic atheist, if I had to slap a label on it, but that's not what I tell people when they ask. All that does is tell someone what I don't believe. It shoves me into the framework of someone else's religion. It's practically irrelevant to my own spirituality and beliefs.


Well stated. I share this exact sentiment.
 
Upvote 0

JoeP222w

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2015
3,358
1,748
55
✟77,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Assuming God doesn't actually tell us what to believe... how do we know when it is time to change our beliefs?

Say you are debating with someone and you lose the debate. You have to figure out whether you lost because the person was a better debater, in which case it's silly to change your beliefs, or because the other side has better facts. If the latter, it presents a problem...

Should we change our beliefs upon being presented with better facts? When is it okay to? When is it not okay to?

In regards to belief in God, God is the one who grant regeneration and faith, so He is the source of belief.

If the individual were the source of belief, then yes, they would be tossed to and fro as the waves of the sea. However, for the Christian, since God is the source of belief and faith, and nothing in the individual that creates this belief, in and of themselves, and since God never changes and is solid, a Christian belief will not fail, because it is based in the Creator rather than the created.

Our beliefs and understanding of God become refined over time through the process of sanctification, but the fundamental truths of God never change.

If a belief can be changed by a refined argument of the opposing side, was your initial belief really based in truth? I would tend to think not.
 
Upvote 0

Rebecca12

Active Member
Nov 23, 2013
317
229
✟30,996.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I see most of the atheists here are apatheists, or close. I think at a certain point you end up that way. How can a question be interesting anymore if there is not way to determine the answer?

Belief is not a matter of choice. Nor is disbelief. Your beliefs and lack thereof are shaped by any number of things, like your culture, your family, your experiences, your education, your feelings of personal security, maybe even your genetic makeup. I was always the sort of person who questioned everything. I had a parent who taught me that doubt is not a negative characteristic, I am educated in psychology so I understood at least a bit how people think and make decisions, I am financially and otherwise secure so I do not have a lot of fear for my personal future or dismay about my present circumstances. At a point I realized that one religion could not be preferred over another. And then I realized that I did not believe in God at all, it no longer made sense to me.

Christians, you cannot simply "chose" to become atheists or another religion, can you? And atheists can't simply chose to start believing. It makes no sense. I don't know how many times people have told me that if I just let Christ in I would believe. And I think, what in the world does that even mean? Christians, can you "let Buddha in" or Mohammed in? Krishna? Of course not. It makes no sense. Or they say pray for guidance. Huh? To what? I could sit half the day and say the lord's prayer (after all I was once a Christian) and it still would be meaningless to me. It is rather a pleasingly musical prayer, but that is it. I can be moved by Christian music, I am especially a fan of requiem masses. But it doesn't make me believe in God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Khalliqa

Junior Member
Sep 30, 2006
472
172
✟28,944.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
I wish most atheists were apatheists geez.. lol

Better dialogue... certainly better social skills..

Although I must say one of my former apatheist crushes (*cough NDT *cough) were crushed in discussion by a hard atheist (*cough Sam Harris *cough) causing me to sort of abhor the complacency leading to a seeming lack of clarity in one's position.. resulting in wishy washy apatheism

But I digress :-/
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,978
9,399
✟377,931.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Assuming God doesn't actually tell us what to believe... how do we know when it is time to change our beliefs?

Say you are debating with someone and you lose the debate. You have to figure out whether you lost because the person was a better debater, in which case it's silly to change your beliefs, or because the other side has better facts. If the latter, it presents a problem...

Should we change our beliefs upon being presented with better facts? When is it okay to? When is it not okay to?
It depends, really. Sometimes the "better facts" - which is really more verifiable facts - are indeed the truth. Sometimes they do not tell the whole story and present a half-truth when wielded by a better debator. In which case you didn't have good knowledge of provable facts to begin with and you really should not have debated in the first place, but it happens.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rebecca12

Active Member
Nov 23, 2013
317
229
✟30,996.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I wish most atheists were apatheists geez.. lol

Better dialogue... certainly better social skills..

Although I must say one of my former apatheist crushes (*cough NDT *cough) were crushed in discussion by a hard atheist (*cough Sam Harris *cough) causing me to sort of abhor the complacency leading to a seeming lack of clarity in one's position.. resulting in wishy washy apatheism

But I digress :-/

Yeah. NDT just doesn't have a background in philosophy so he can't really hold his own in a philosophical discussion against someone that has at least somewhat of a background in philosophy like Harris. Massimo Pigliucci, who has both a science background and a Phd in philosophy does a pretty fine job of critiquing NDT's dismissive view of philosophy. Philosophy is not useless, but it is dangerous. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Khalliqa
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Rebecca12

Active Member
Nov 23, 2013
317
229
✟30,996.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Say you are debating with someone and you lose the debate. You have to figure out whether you lost because the person was a better debater, in which case it's silly to change your beliefs, or because the other side has better facts. If the latter, it presents a problem...

Should we change our beliefs upon being presented with better facts? When is it okay to? When is it not okay to?

It depends, really. Sometimes the better facts are indeed the truth. Sometimes the better facts are not the whole story and present a half-truth when wielded by a better debator. In which case you didn't have good facts to begin with and you really should not have debated in the first place, but it happens.

Back up a bit. There is no such thing as "better facts" or facts that are not "good facts." Facts are facts. A fact is something that is indisputably the case. Sometimes you have enough facts to make some general conclusion about whether something is likely or not. Sometimes you have enough facts to develop a theory about those facts. Sometimes the weight of the evidence goes one way. Sometimes another. But the facts are still the facts. If something isn't the case, than it isn't a fact. It could be a lie or a mistake. Debate can be a terrible tool for discovery of facts and an effective tool at obfuscation. That is why a person who has a strong factual knowledge of a topic should not bother to debate someone who has plenty of unsupported opinions and who refuses to acknowledge facts.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,978
9,399
✟377,931.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Back up a bit. There is no such thing as "better facts" or facts that are not "good facts." Facts are facts. A fact is something that is indisputably the case. Sometimes you have enough facts to make some general conclusion about whether something is likely or not. Sometimes you have enough facts to develop a theory about those facts. Sometimes the weight of the evidence goes one way. Sometimes another. But the facts are still the facts. If something isn't the case, than it isn't a fact. It could be a lie or a mistake. Debate can be a terrible tool for discovery of facts and an effective tool at obfuscation. That is why a person who has a strong factual knowledge of a topic should not bother to debate someone who has plenty of unsupported opinions and who refuses to acknowledge facts.
OK, I amend it to "better knowledge of provable facts" and "good knowledge of provable facts." People can still use facts to support lies by dismissing or excluding other facts, though. That was the main thrust of what I was saying.
 
Upvote 0

Rebecca12

Active Member
Nov 23, 2013
317
229
✟30,996.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
OK, I amend it to "better knowledge of provable facts" and "good knowledge of provable facts." People can still use facts to support lies by dismissing or excluding other facts, though. That was the main thrust of what I was saying.

Fair enough. That is where obfuscation comes in.
 
Upvote 0

Khalliqa

Junior Member
Sep 30, 2006
472
172
✟28,944.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Yeah. NDT just doesn't have a background in philosophy so he can't really hold his own in a philosophical discussion against someone that has at least somewhat of a background in philosophy like Harris. Massimo Pigliucci, who has both a science background and a Phd in philosophy does a pretty fine job of critiquing NDT's dismissive view of philosophy. Philosophy is not useless, but it is dangerous. :)

Hi Rebecca :-D

RE: NDT's limited background - agreed
Re: Pigliucci - His credentials make me feel like such a slacker *goals*
RE: Harris - I simply admire the way he communicates.. *goals*

Why do you say Philosophy is dangerous?
 
Upvote 0

Rebecca12

Active Member
Nov 23, 2013
317
229
✟30,996.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Hi Rebecca :-D

Why do you say Philosophy is dangerous?

Dangerous with a smiley face. If you do it well you will learn to think. Or, you end up with philosophies like Solipsism. Is this real life? Or is this just fantasy? Can't be falsified. And explains not much of anything.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Khalliqa

Junior Member
Sep 30, 2006
472
172
✟28,944.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Dangerous with a smiley face. If you do it well you will learn to think. Or, you end up with philosophies like Solipsism. Is this real life? Or is this just fantasy? Can't be falsified. And explains not much of anything.

Solipsism! That was the first philosophical term that made me feel like I knew "something" you know strictly from my own viewpoint *ba dom pom Ching*


I think the exercise of entertaining such navel grazing philosophies is necessary to some extent. The practice of considering opposing views as well as the seemingly ad infinitum questioning that encourages one to refine their assessments..

At least that's my journey..
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Rebecca12
Upvote 0

variant

Happy Cat
Jun 14, 2005
23,625
6,387
✟293,730.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Assuming God doesn't actually tell us what to believe... how do we know when it is time to change our beliefs?

Say you are debating with someone and you lose the debate. You have to figure out whether you lost because the person was a better debater, in which case it's silly to change your beliefs, or because the other side has better facts. If the latter, it presents a problem...

Should we change our beliefs upon being presented with better facts? When is it okay to? When is it not okay to?

Beliefs are not a light switch where we can just turn it on or off.

Beliefs are based upon what you are convinced by.

The process of being convinced or compelled to believe something by facts or circumstance, argument or intuition are quite complex and don't always follow the same consistent set of rules.

You don't usually consciously decide to change your beliefs, you just admit to what you think at a point where you become honest with yourself.

It's not always that you encounter someone with better arguments or facts. A belief often becomes ingrained as part of a persons identity to the point that they feel bad when it is challenged, and will simply look for a confirmation of that belief in order to shrug off anything that challenges it.

This is something people should try to avoid if possible, so they don't spend all their time carrying water for their beliefs that they aren't actually sure of or, even worse, caving into social (or other) external pressures on them to believe.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0