Being Made Perfect in Love

circuitrider

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One of the most misunderstood and now least discussed Wesleyan doctrines is his doctrine of perfection or to be more accurate "being made perfect in love."

What do you think about Wesley's doctrine of perfection and would does it mean in the Wesleyan sense to be "perfect."

I'd love to hear your views!

For me I see being made perfect in love as a life long journey with Christ seeking our sanctification by traveling the way of life with Christ. A way or pilgrimage is my favorite metaphor for the Christian life.
 

GraceSeeker

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For me, Christian perfection is all about sanctification, the process by which God, who has called us his own and looks on us seeing the righteousness of Christ rather than our sins, works to make that not just the way he chooses to view us, but to nurture the presence of Christ within us so that even others might see the same.
 
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circuitrider

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For me, Christian perfection is all about sanctification, the process by which God, who has called us his own and looks on us seeing the righteousness of Christ rather than our sins, works to make that not just the way he chooses to view us, but to nurture the presence of Christ within us so that even others might see the same.

I like that!
 
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Emmy

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Dear circuitrider. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself."
Then Jesus points out: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God wants our love, freely given and No conditions tagged on.
What does God want from us? We start by treating all we know and all we meet with kindness and always friendly words, we treat others as we would love to be treated. God sees our sincere efforts, and God will approve and bless us. AND we show God that we Love God. How? By following His Commandments to Love and Care. Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love, also. Jesus told us to " ask and
receive," Matthew 7: 7-8: then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour, if needed, we give the willing Hand also.
A Christian`s great weapon is Love, with Love we will overcome all enmity and wrong behaviour. We are God`s only representatives in this imperfect world, and our Saviour Jesus Christ will help and guide us.JESUS IS THE WAY.
We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving God and loving and caring for our neighbour. God is Love
and God wants loving men and women. I say this with love, circuitrider.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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BryanW92

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For me, Christian perfection is all about sanctification, the process by which God, who has called us his own and looks on us seeing the righteousness of Christ rather than our sins, works to make that not just the way he chooses to view us, but to nurture the presence of Christ within us so that even others might see the same.

I was going to write something, but this covers it!
 
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circuitrider

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Here are the historic questions of John Wesley asked of all persons being ordained to Methodist ministry. Note the questions on perfection. These questions are still used by the UMC.

All the answers are expected to be yes other than the one about being in debt.

Have you faith in Christ?
Are you going on to perfection?
Do you expect to be made perfect in love in this life?
Are you earnestly striving after it?
Are you resolved to devote yourself wholly to God and his work?
Do you know the General Rules of our Church?
Will you keep them?
Have you studied the doctrines of The United Methodist Church?
After full examination, do you believe that our doctrines are in harmony with the Holy Scriptures?
Will you preach and maintain them?
Have you studied our form of Church discipline and polity?
Do you approve our Church government and polity?
Will you support and maintain them?
Will you diligently instruct the children in every place?
Will you visit from house to house?
Will you recommend fasting or abstinence, both by precept and example?
Are you determined to employ all your time in the work of God?
Are you in debt so as to embarrass you in your work?
Will you observe the following directions? a) Be diligent. Never be unemployed. Never be triflingly employed. Never trifle away time; neither spend any more time at any one place than is strictly necessary. b) Be punctual. Do everything exactly at the time. And do not mend our rules, but keep them; not for wrath, but for conscience’ sake.
 
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Maid Marie

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One of the most misunderstood and now least discussed Wesleyan doctrines is his doctrine of perfection or to be more accurate "being made perfect in love."

What do you think about Wesley's doctrine of perfection and would does it mean in the Wesleyan sense to be "perfect."

I'd love to hear your views!

For me I see being made perfect in love as a life long journey with Christ seeking our sanctification by traveling the way of life with Christ. A way or pilgrimage is my favorite metaphor for the Christian life.

Be perfectly loving - love as Jesus loves. Be perfect for God to use. To be so filled with God's Spirit that love for others and for God spills out through our pores in our skin which makes us perfect for God to use to be his hands and feet.
 
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circuitrider

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If you believe that God can change nature to such a degree that it would be possible for a person to fly, then surely, the creator who re-creates us in his own image through the miracle of grace extended to us from the cross, can create us, as his own word says, so that "the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).

Well said! He didn't make Peter fly but he did show him how to walk on water!

For me seeking to maintain the hope that God will lead me to Christian maturity in this life is part of the way we keep focused on the path of the gospel. We should be striving to accept God's power to change our lives and avoid being obstacles to God's grace working in us.

But if we decide up front that God can't change us until we get to heaven it can be a barrier to God changing us.
 
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GraceSeeker

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It make me wonder what people think when they read the Bible and the Bible says, "Be perfect?" Maybe running with the common Greek idea is the answer.

It's a Hebrew book read by Greek and Roman minds. There's a lot of mistranslation that goes on I think. I know that I'm still learning to correct things that I thought I had learned correctly years ago. But it is hard to separate one's self from one's culture, to then read and understand a different culture, and finally only after all of that to then reapply what we have read the culture we are living in.

Sometimes its just easier to think that Paul really did fetch a compass in Acts 28:13 (KJV), rather than learning that the compass wasn't even invented yet and this is an old way of talking about going around something.
 
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circuitrider

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OK. You're confusing me. Sanctification is a life long process? Can we be fully sanctified in this life? What does it mean to be fully sanctified?

John Wesley always left open the possibility that God could bring us to full maturity in this life. He never claimed to have reach that state but if someone reached it they would be "perfect in love" meaning that they would love others as God wants them to.

The reason for the this idea of Wesley's is that he never wanted to limit the work of God. He believed in God's power to to transform our lives as God sees fit.

"Perfect" didn't mean in Wesley's day what we often think perfect to me. What perfect means in a Wesleyan sense is that we become the person God created us to be suited for the purposes of God.

That is the goal of sanctification, to be what God wants us to be. Calvinists in particular tend to say that we can't be made perfect until heaven. The problem with that statement is that it declares that God can't do something. If that were the case that would mean God was less than omnipotent.

We seldom, at least in the UMC experience I've had, talk about total sanctification often in part because why Wesley believed God could do this it is different to say that we now anyone who has reached this state of maturity or perfection.

But that does not mean that it ceases to be the goal of sanctification to be ALL God wants us to be.
 
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snumerouno

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OK. You're confusing me. Sanctification is a life long process? Can we be fully sanctified in this life? What does it mean to be fully sanctified?

Sanctified means to be holy and set apart. We can be sanctified and set apart for God's purpose in this life. That doesn't mean we will be sinless.
 
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MystyRock

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Sanctified means to be holy and set apart. We can be sanctified and set apart for God's purpose in this life. That doesn't mean we will be sinless.
OK. That helps. Several months ago, someone in this forum said they were fully sanctified and didn't sin.
 
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circuitrider

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OK. That helps. Several months ago, someone in this forum said they were fully sanctified and didn't sin.

No, that isn't what at least United Methodists mean by the doctrine of perfection. Our phrase is "being made perfect in love." Not being sinless.
 
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MystyRock

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No, that isn't what at least United Methodists mean by the doctrine of perfection. Our phrase is "being made perfect in love." Not being sinless.
Thx. I'm still a newbie. I've only been an official Methodist for 12 days!
 
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circuitrider

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Thx. I'm still a newbie. I've only been an official Methodist for 12 days!

I fully understand! When I was beginning my own journey into Methodism I had to do a lot of rethinking of theology I'd been taught over the years.

One of the values of a denominational church switch is it can be an opportunity to get more in tune with what believe. At least it has been for me.
 
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GraceSeeker

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Mysty, we should never limit God's authority or what God can do. God created Adam with the potential to live in submission to him. He also created Adam with the freedom to go his own way. Adam chose the later. Because sin entered into the world through Adam, the rest of us have been born into a different world in which our natural potenial was different from the potentialities that were true for Adam. Having been marred by the consequences of Adam's sin, we were never free to live in a completely sinless world and by all appearances it seem our natural inclination seems to have been to continue to make the choice that Adam did to serve self rather than to submit to God. As such we are anything but sanctified people, set apart for God's purposes, but much more by nature we tend to "look out for #1" (and notice how no one ever questions that by #1 we mean one's self).

God's love is so great that in the person of Jesus he entered into his world where everyone thinks (and lives) as if he/she is #1 - from the infant crying for its mother's milk, to the priest of God who demands that people respect his office - and showed us what it was like to live a live that declared that actually was sanctified (set apart for the purposes of God).

Let us remember that Jesus (though we like to speak of him as "the Son of God" or even as God the Son, was also thoroughly human. The doctrine of the incarnation means that yes this is God who dwells among us; it als means he is limited by that flesh the same as we are. If Jesus lives a perfectly sinless life, he does so under the same constraints and potentialities that we have (or at least that Adam had), NOT because he has some divine power to avoid sin. As Paul tells us in Philippians 2, Jesus gave up all of his divine perogatives when he came in the form of a human being. He was still divine, but he faced all the same challenges and temptations and difficulties and trials that are common to every other son and daughter of Adam. Some theologians of a particular persuasion that I suspect you grew up with like to remind us that if Jesus was not the Son of God then his death on the cross could not make atonement for us. They forget that for Jesus bearing that cross was a decision he had to make as a human being, one that the Son of Adam made in the Garden of Gethsemane when he cried out, "If it be possible Father, let this cup be taken from me. Nevertheless, not my will but thy will be done."

Now, anything can be sanctified temporarily. The objects of the temple are washed, sprinkled with blood, so a to mark them as holy, i.e. sanctified (the Engish words "holy", "saint", "sanctified" are all one and the same word in Greek -- "hagios" -- which means "belonging to God") or set apart for God's purposes, and pretty much anything can be so "sanctified". Even the concept of Messiah (meaning literally "anointed") is not a special designation applied to Jesus alone. There were many messiahs in Jesus's day. We tend to think of those who were false messiahs. But not all of these messiahs were false. For instance the term "messiah" was applied to John Hyrancus and the Maccadees who had cleansed the temple and for a time gave Israel a brief period of independence from occupation under Persians, Greeks and Romans that it experienced following their return from the Babylonian exile. Indeed, in Isaaih, the one who took thm into exile, Nebudchadnezzer, is called "the Lord's anointed", in the Hebrew the word is "maschrach" or "messiah".


It is that final phrase, "thy will be done" which is the mark of a sanctified person. When our utlimate will is to do the will of God, one is entirely sanctified. And Jesus obviously lived his life that way in its entirety.

But, again I remind you, that this is something Jesus did in his humanness. So, is it possible for a human? Yes. But let us also remember, even Jesus didn't live this way depending on his own power, but did so s he was led by the presence of the Holy Spirit in his life. Apart from that reality, who knows, Jesus might have failed just s we each do. I know that some will think such a concept heretical, but they will be wrong. The heresy would be to deny the risk that God took when he incarnated himself in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. As the second Adam, Jesus face the very same risks that the first Adam did. The potential to choose God was there, and so was the potential to make a different choice. Apart from that choice, the cross is not a sacrifice.

You and I are faced with similar choices in our lives. Because of what Christ has done, we who place our trust in him are continually challenged with regard to whose will will we follow. Conversion is about a change in our nature, from one that is predisposed to serving #1, to one that has the potential to fully rely on God. Again, we cannot do this n our own power any more than Jesus did. When we are in Christ, we become his brothers and sister, and in a very real sense are sons and daughters of God just as Christ (and before him Adam) were. God's Spirit restores us to an unbroken relationship with the Father through the work of the Messiah (God's anointed one) and sets before us the potential to say "nevertheless, not my will but thy will be done" with regard to the choices that are ever before us.

So, we are sanctified in two different ways. One, we are sanctified because God claims us in Jesus, the Christ of God. To be a Christian is not just to be a follower of Christ, but to actually be a "little Christ" ourselves. This is possible because we don't attempt to follow Jesus in our own power, but to do so with the assistence of the Spirit who indwells us every bit as much as Jesus was God dwelling among us.

Second, because of this change in our nature, we have the potential to not just be an object that is claimed by God. We can actually live lives that are set apart for God. In this way our very life, our way of living is also sanctified, made holy. And, as you will note from your reading of the New Testament, Paul writes to those who have so identified themselves calling them "saints". He uses this term with regard to them even when he is chastising them for some of their sins. Therefore, to be a saint, to be holy, to be going through the process of sanctification is not a statement about being sinless. But it is a statement about our desire to be like Christ.

And here is the tricky part, that I guess snumerouno is going to disagree with, that process is a process which depends on our openness to God. He is indeed perfecting us, that is working on finishing us to become Christ-like. And regardless of our past, because we are new creatures in Christ, the past, including our human nature and its natural tendency to sin is irrelavant. We are new creatures, born again, filled with the Spirit who does enable us to follow Christ and to become like him. And just as the human Jesus did not sin, such has to be held out as a possibility for those who have been crafted in the image of the second Adam and cleansed of our sinful nature. Most of us return to the old nature as Paul describes in Romans 6, willing one thing, yet experiencing another in our lives. But it does not have to be that way. If we would ever truly let that Holy Spirit have control over us, if we would submit fully as the human Jesus did and showed us the way for us to follow him, then we too could not just be living lives in which we are being sanctified, but even lives that have been entirely sanctified, where our only thought is to do the will of him who sent Jesus and sends us into the world. And of course, such a life, with the Spirit of Jesus would have no room for anything that was not of God in thought, word or deed.

Now if that ever happens, it is not because we have willed it, but because of the presence of Christ living within us, and God having accepted the offering of our lives to him when we first learned to trust in Christ, and now shaping us to become ever more like him.
 
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