Being Baptised

[Rowan]

...It's very informal the teacher is a great guy (I teach it)...

Hilarious

As far as the subject goes, I have not been baptised yet, and have received the Lord's Spirit, and the one who has determined me a Christian is Christ. Now, nothing can pull me away from God's hands.

AllTalkNoAction:
Since you encourage baptism as a requirement for being a Christian, then so be it. Since you have received God's gift, you are saved. I encourage you to encourage people to be baptized (with honey, not vinegar, of course..). But, please have some sensitivity; people come to Christ from many backgrounds, some are reluctant to trust a church congregation, or even another person. To be baptized is to bare your soul in a way that some people just aren't ready to do. Some have to grow in Christ to take that leap. And, to me, to think that an earthly deed trumps God's Grace is a way of thinking that contradicts the Awesome God we serve....

I'll be praying on it.

 

[JohnCpn]

Thanks for the replys guys. If i was to be baptised, (Iv heard alot of people dispute this) would it be better for me to be submerged completely or does it not matter?

 

[snoochface]

Thanks for the replys guys. If i was to be baptised, (Iv heard alot of people dispute this) would it be better for me to be submerged completely or does it not matter?

Submersion is how John and the apostles baptized, and that is how I feel we should be baptized as well.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

AllTalkNoAction:
. .. some are reluctant to trust a church congregation, or even another person. To be baptized is to bare your soul in a way that some people just aren't ready to do. Some have to grow in Christ to take that leap. And, to me, to think that an earthly deed trumps God's Grace is a way of thinking that contradicts the Awesome God we serve....

I'll be praying on it.

I'm not asking them to trust anything but the words of God I have quoted, their baptism is unto him and can be done privately if they prefer.
The earthly deed doesn't trump God's grace - read Acts 8v5-16, these people got baptised but still hadn't received the Spirit.

How was it known that they had not received the Spirit ?

Rowan, what makes you different to them in that you think you have received the Spirit ?
What have you experienced or believed that they didn't ?

 

[Rowan]

I'm not asking them to trust anything but the words of God I have quoted, their baptism is unto him and can be done privately if they prefer.

Personally, I would prefer someone else to be present at my baptism by submersion, for safety issues if not for anything else. I'm not very...uh...buoyant

The earthly deed doesn't trump God's grace - read Acts 8v5-16, these people got baptised but still hadn't received the Spirit.


How was it known that they had not received the Spirit ?

Because the Holy Spirit is received at true repentance to Jesus Christ. It does not say that they had repented their sins.

Rowan, what makes you different to them in that you think you have received the Spirit ?
What have you experienced or believed that they didn't ?

Because I have repented, and have been washed clean in the blood of Christ.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Personally, I would prefer someone else to be present at my baptism by submersion, for safety issues if not for anything else. I'm not very...uh...buoyant

no-one ever gets baptised alone, for a starter there is the person baptising you.

Because the Holy Spirit is received at true repentance to Jesus Christ. It does not say that they had repented their sins.

Yes it does, they believed in Jesus, had "great joy" and miracles and stopped following Simon the Sorceror, what fruit of repentance do you have that they didn't ?

Because I have repented, and have been washed clean in the blood of Christ.

Joh:5:31: If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Jer:17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

*NEVER* was it taught that because someone claimed to have repented they had therefore received the Holy Spirit !
Where do you get that from ?
What the bible clearly teaches is that the apostles waited for God, who alone knows the heart to bare witness with His sign of speaking in tongues.

 

[Rowan]

no-one ever gets baptised alone, for a starter there is the person baptising you.

So, it's not really private, therefore, my statement about finding the ability to trust still stands. Even trusting one person is tough for some.

Yes it does, they believed in Jesus, had "great joy" and miracles and stopped following Simon the Sorceror, what fruit of repentance do you have that they didn't ?

Yes, but did they acknowledge as of yet that they were inherently sinners? That sorcery is just as bad as coveting? It's one thing to say "Oooo, look at these great miracles!", it's quite another to recognize that these gifts from Jesus come undeserved.

Joh:5:31: If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Jer:17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I do not bear witness to myself, Christ bears witness through me. I am nothing, Christ is everything. He's the one who knows my heart.

*NEVER* was it taught that because someone claimed to have repented they had therefore received the Holy Spirit !
Where do you get that from ?
What the bible clearly teaches is that the apostles waited for God, who alone knows the heart to bare witness with His sign of speaking in tongues.

To truly repent is to fully accept Christ's gift, and recognize his sacrifice for us sinners. By accepting Jesus, He counts us as one of his own, and our body then becomes God's temple, where His Spirit dwells. Why would be in the Spirit of adoption if we didn't truly recognize the Son of God?

They had to wait because Jesus was just ressurected. No one could receive his life within them until Jesus had passed away.

Also, I don't believe that speaking in tongues is the only way that the Spirit manifests in the believer. Like Paul wrote, the gifts of the Spirit are as different as the body's organs, but we still are one Body of Christ.

 

[Silly]

Right. That's exactly why we push the new believers' class before baptism the way we do. It's very informal the teacher is a great guy (I teach it) and it will really will make your baptism experience more fulfilling and meaningful.

I don't think anybody should be pushed into baptism, the way you say you were.

It should be a way for a new believer to identify with the local body of believers and to express his relationship with Christ. I think when people push new believers into it, even though they may have only the best of intentions, what they're really doing is trivializing it and I think they also put more pressure on the baptizee than they need at that point.

Sorry that happened to you.

LOL......so cute about u being the teacher! Thank you for apologizing also, but I know that not all churches are the same. I have had the worst luck with churches, and hardly attend anymore because of things like this. One of the churches I attended before this, was showing me how to practice speaking in tongues! I was repeating after them in Latin! I have a fear of going into churches, seem like I need to keep my "guard" up at all times. Since I am not that familiar with the bible, I have no idea if they are preaching truth, or not. I need to learn how to read the bible, and not be bored by it so I can differentiate the truth from a lie.......This is something I am working on. My trouble with churches is the same trouble with the bible....hhhhmmm. I was born and raised in a very strict catholic household and have struggles with hard core evidence and facts. But, I do know I want a personal relationship with God, and that I am a saved christian. The rest of it will have to come thru God changing me, and my heart. I have boughten a life application bible, and I really like it but is still hard for me to read. Do u have any suggestions on that? I also have never been taught how to pray.......I am winging this, and have been for a while now. So, my progress has been surely slow. But, thru a christian counselor, I have made some headways. Thank You for replying to my message.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

So, it's not really private, therefore, my statement about finding the ability to trust still stands. Even trusting one person is tough for some.

Can you even trust yourself ?
People don't make it nto God's blessings because they trust themselves !
By all means have someone else there that you do trust.

I do not bear witness to myself, Christ bears witness through me. I am nothing, Christ is everything. He's the one who knows my heart.

How does Christ bare witness to you that your have received His Spirit ?

Something is standing between you and what Christ gave all his disciples after his ascention, it's not him so it *must* be your doubt, your holding onto opinions other than what the bible declares they all received.

To truly repent is to fully accept Christ's gift

- yes ! the gift of the Holy Spirit, the receiving of that was always known, all spoke in tongues immediately, the reason you havn't received that is that you havn't repented of these other ideas you have concerning when the Spirit is received.

Also, I don't believe that speaking in tongues is the only way that the Spirit manifests in the believer. Like Paul wrote, the gifts of the Spirit are as different as the body's organs, but we still are one Body of Christ.

"the gifts" refer specifically to the meetings-use (i.e. *giving* to the church) of what all christians have fo private use. Even the passage you cite shows this because you wouldn't claim that only "one" or even only some christians get wisdom, knowledge and faith !
(would you ??)
1Co:12:8: For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;:9: To another faith

 

[Rowan]

Can you even trust yourself ?
People don't make it nto God's blessings because they trust themselves !
By all means have someone else there that you do trust.

What does this have to do about what I said? I truly trust in Christ alone...

How does Christ bare witness to you that your have received His Spirit ?

Something is standing between you and what Christ gave all his disciples after his ascention, it's not him so it *must* be your doubt, your holding onto opinions other than what the bible declares they all received.

..By manifesting the Gifts of the Spirit, as proclaimed in Ephesians 5:22,23.

He doesn't have to manifest these in me, nor give me the gift to speak in tongues. I don't receive the Holy Spirit just so I can be glorified as "proof", there are for His glory alone. I must be aware that the gifts can be counterfeited, so manifesting them do not necessarily mean that you have indwelling. Christ makes the difference, and I know that I belong to Christ. Through Him, I can say this with all the conviction He provides.

- yes ! the gift of the Holy Spirit, the receiving of that was always known, all spoke in tongues immediately, the reason you havn't received that is that you havn't repented of these other ideas you have concerning when the Spirit is received.

I don't have any ideas; I follow Jesus Christ.

"the gifts" refer specifically to the meetings-use (i.e. *giving* to the church) of what all christians have fo private use. Even the passage you cite shows this because you wouldn't claim that only "one" or even only some christians get wisdom, knowledge and faith !
(would you ??)
1Co:12:8: For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;:9: To another faith

The gifts still remain as the fruit of the indwelling of Christ.

The passage does claim that we receive different gifts, so I don't have to claim it...

I realize that you are ministering to me in genuine concern for my salvation, so, for that, I thank you. I have to ask though, since you truly feel that I have not been Baptised by the Spirit, have you put it in God's hands? Have you sincerely prayed for me?

What denomination do you consider yourself apart of, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[MikeMcK]

One of the churches I attended before this, was showing me how to practice speaking in tongues!

That's a big red flag. It reminds me of an incident I saw at Victory Christian Fellowship in Wilmington, De, where they were trying to make a girl speak in tongues.

If you're ever in a situation like that again, leave immediately.

I have a fear of going into churches, seem like I need to keep my "guard" up at all times.

I can understand that. As a new Christian, I was caught up in the Word of Faith movement. God delivered me from that, but I still cringe whenever I hear certain buzzwords.

Since I am not that familiar with the bible, I have no idea if they are preaching truth, or not. I need to learn how to read the bible, and not be bored by it so I can differentiate the truth from a lie.......This is something I am working on.

I don't know how you study the Bible, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the reason you may find it boring is that you don't have a good Bible study program. I know that whenever somebody tells me that the Bible is boring, 99% of the time, that's what it is.

I have boughten a life application bible, and I really like it but is still hard for me to read. Do u have any suggestions on that?

Doing it on your own is hard, I know, but until you're in a place where you can be a part of an organized Bible study, I know that groups like the Navigators, Walk Through the Bible, and Radio Bible Class have good resources that may be helpful.

I also have never been taught how to pray.......I am winging this, and have been for a while now. So, my progress has been surely slow.

The good news about prayer is that the Bible tells us that when we don't know how to pray, the Holy Spirit steps in a prays for us.

Prayer is a funny thing. On the one hand, it's so simple that a small child can do it, but on the other, it's a discipline that men practice for many years.

Jesus taught us to pray when He taught His disciples the Lord's Prayer.

Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil:
For Thine is the kingdom, and the power,
And the glory, forever. Amen.

Look at the different aspects of prayer we see here. We see praise, worship, seeking God's will, acknowledging our dependence on God, Supplication, asking forgiveness for our sins, acknowleging God's faithfulness, and once again, back to worship.

If you don't know how to pray, then maybe you might start with the Lord's prayer and slowly personalize it, changing it just a little each time to express your own feelings.

The most important thing to remember about prayer is that prayer is simply communicating your feelings to God and acknowledging your dependence upon Him. You really don't need a formula or fancy words. If you don't know how, then it's OK to start small.

"Dear God, thank you for your faithfulness. Teach me to be in Your presence. Teach me how to pray. Amen."

That's a fine way to start.

Something else that's important is that prayer doesn't always mean that you have to have something to say. Some of the most meaningful and rewarding times of prayer I've ever had came when there wasn't much said.

Thank You for replying to my message.

Glad to.

 

[Sketcher]

Just cos u say you believe doesn't mean you have received the Holy Spirit !

Read the verses I posted, then play again.

 

[JohnCpn]

So what some of you are saying is that even if someone has devoted his/her life to Jesus, if he i not baptised, he is not worthy of Jesus and will be cast into hell?

 

[snoochface]

So what some of you are saying is that even if someone has devoted his/her life to Jesus, if he i not baptised, he is not worthy of Jesus and will be cast into hell?

That is what some people believe - but it is not Biblically correct.

Be careful about the interpretation you accept as truth. Read the related passages and verses for yourself and trust in the Holy Spirit to tell you what is correct.

 

[JohnCpn]

This matter has really tested my faith over the last few days, thinking about my family. I have prayed but I feel totally lost and starting to resent that I wasn't baptised when i was a child. Alltalknoaction kindly offered me an opportunity but i'm a student so i cant travel too far, plus i dont drive and I have no money! It now feels like my faith is based on "do this or burn".

 

[snoochface]

This matter has really tested my faith over the last few days, thinking about my family. I have prayed but I feel totally lost and starting to resent that I wasn't baptised when i was a child. Alltalknoaction kindly offered me an opportunity but i'm a student so i cant travel too far, plus i dont drive and I have no money! It now feels like my faith is based on "do this or burn".

I'm really sorry to hear this has been such a struggle for you. Unfortunately, this is what happens when people start trying to tell others that their salvation is based on ANYTHING other than their faith in Jesus.

The best advice I have for you is to look back over the scripture that people have posted here. There's a lot of evidence - actual words, literal Biblical evidence - that what it takes for salvation is FAITH and not works. The scripture that makes it appear that baptism is a requirement for salvation is interpreted badly. It's a false doctrine. Please don't fall into that trap.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Why does The Lord command water baptism if it's optional ?

What purpose does it serve ?

 

[snoochface]

Why does The Lord command water baptism if it's optional ?

What purpose does it serve ?

AllTalkNoAction, the Lord commands that we do many, many, many things including baptism. These things are not requests, they are things that we are supposed to do out of obedience to him.

BUT the Bible makes it clear that none of these things are requirements for salvation. It is faith alone that saves us. Good works, the things we do out of obedience, things like baptism, are the evidence of our faith. Doing these things out of obedience are how we show our faith by what we do.

There is a big difference between the things we are supposed to do out of obedience, and the thing (singular) we need for salvation.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

AllTalkNoAction, the Lord commands that we do many, many, many things including baptism. These things are not requests, they are things that we are supposed to do out of obedience to him.

You havn't said *why* The Lord commands baptism.
Do you know ?

 

[snoochface]

Baptism is for the remission of sins.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

^ This clearly shows all that is necessary to be saved.


Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:15-16 15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

^ We've talked about the above verse before. If baptism were a condition for salvation, the verse would read, "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe and is not baptised will be condemned." But that is not what it says. Not being baptised does not condemn you.


John 4:2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

^ Why didn't Jesus baptize? He was the one saving us.

You've said before the thief on the cross was saved under the old law. What about these verses from Galatians 3?

11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.


And:

Acts 10:44-48 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

^ Is it your contention that if the gentiles in the above passage had dropped dead or been kicked in the head by a mule before they got baptized, they would have gone to hell? They received the Holy Spirit, but would spend eternity in hell?


You want to know *why* the Lord commands baptism? Well, why does he command that we should turn the other cheek? Why does he command that we should fellowship with other believers? Why does he command that we should give up all we have to follow him? Because these things are expressions of our faith and our willingness to follow Jesus beyond anything else. Because doing these things shows obedience to him and does his will.

But you know what? If I don't turn the other cheek, or if I don't fellowship with other believers, or if I don't give up my home and my clothes and my laptop, I'm not going to go to hell for it. Because none of those things are conditions of salvation.

AllTalkNoAction, we clearly interpret scripture differently, but you have to be very, very careful about your words and assertations. The original poster is having a crisis of faith over the doctrine you are presenting to him. The scripture I and many others in this thread have posted is really clear about what is required for salvation.