Beget vs. Conceive; Nephilim vs. Jesus

[AnticipateHisComing]

There was a question in the Unorthodox area that prompted me to ponder the difference between Beget and Conceive. Since I don't normally read the KJV, I was missing how these words are used in scripture. While searching scripture I found the words are not used interchangeably. I also think I found evidence from Jesus' incarnation an explanation of the Nephilim.

Beget, begot, begat are all used to describe an action of a man.
Conceive always refers to what happens in a female.
Also learn that only men beget, but animals and women conceive.

Since scripture is so consistent in its use of these words, I believe they have different meanings.

From the creation account we know that we humans are created in the image of God. Now we know this is not a physical concept but a spirit concept. We have both body and soul. The body is flesh, like other animals. What distinguishes us apart from all animals is our soul and its ability for God's Spirit to dwell in us.

From creation, God told us to reproduce and multiply. This command was also given to the animals. To this end we have conception, both animals and women. The result is offspring/children.

Genesis 30:23 And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach:

Genesis 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.​

There is no difference in conception, between women and animals. From this I infer conception to describe the reproduction of flesh.


Knowing that humans are special from animals, that we are more than flesh, there must be a word for the generation of our spirit. I think that word is beget. Evidence for this, I find in the description of Jesus birth with Mary. Note that in all the Bible accounts, Mary conceives through the Holy Spirit. It never says Mary begets, or Jesus was begotten at his birth.

This follows with the understanding of Jesus not being created/begotten at his birth. We now say Jesus was an incarnation; that his Spirit took on flesh. If conception created flesh and soul, this would not accurately describe Jesus. It would make Jesus to either have two souls or not have one before birth.

Now look at what the Bible says of beget. It says a father/man begets. It says the result is in the image of his father, so was Seth, son of Adam, also in the image of God; meaning has a soul. In fact Gen 46 says souls came from Jacob's loins.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;​

Now let's look at marriage. Jesus said there is no marriage or procreation in heaven. Marriage is the union of man and woman, becoming one Flesh. The union, being only of flesh, ceases in heaven; therefore it is not a spiritual union. So much for the fallacy of "soul mates".

So if there is no procreation in heaven, what happens when heaven and earth mix. The very short description of Nephilim or giants has puzzled many. lf you look closely to the exact words used, I think we can get a better understanding of what they were, the union of a spirit and a woman that bore flesh.

Gen 6:2 That the [angels]sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
4 There were giants[Nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the [angels]sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
​

Many have argued over "sons of God" being either angels or men/God's elect. I argue that from the beginning men/God's elect have been marrying, so for scripture to call out a unique race of giants/Nephilim/heroes of old as resulting from this union as being hard to fathom.

So is it possible for angels/spirits to conceive with women? Clearly from the account of Jesus' birth it is possible for a spirit to join with women. So if it is possible for the Holy Spirit to conceive in Mary, I believe it was possible for angels/demons to conceive in women long ago.

Note that angels did make appearances long ago and were seen as men. In fact scripture says they may still make appearances in our midst.

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. ​

What about Giants in the Bible. David killed Goliath who was a giant at about 9 1/2 feet tall. Deuteronomy 3:11 mention a large king that needed a 14 ft long bed. If one searches the internet you can find multiple stories and even fossils of giants even taller than this. If there was a race of giants, known as heroes, mighty warriors, it would be easy for people to think of them as gods, demigods. Could this be a basis for the origin of Greek and Roman mythology?

The one thing I would add is that being a union of a spirit and a woman, being conception, not begetting, that it did not create a soul. The Nephilim would have been soulless giants. Being such, the source of much wickedness and ruin. I believe God was set to destroy them in the flood and limited the angels from doing this in the future.

Thoughts anyone? There may be speculation in the OP and there are many other fanciful stories based on the Nephilim, but lease try and keep the comments mostly scriptural.

 

[BobRyan]

So if there is no procreation in heaven, what happens when heaven and earth mix. The very short description of Nephilim or giants has puzzled many. lf you look closely to the exact words used, I think we can get a better understanding of what they were, the union of a spirit and a woman that bore flesh.

Gen 6:2 That the [angels]sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
4 There were giants[Nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the [angels]sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
​

Many have argued over "sons of God" being either angels or men/God's elect. I argue that from the beginning men/God's elect have been marrying, so for scripture to call out a unique race of giants/Nephilim/heroes of old as resulting from this union as being hard to fathom.

So is it possible for angels/spirits to conceive with women? .

1. Angels don't have the ability to have children as Christ points out in Matt 22 -- they are not created to participate in that - in any way.

end of story.

2. Gen 6 does not say that there were giants as a result of women and the sons of God being married.

The text says that there were giants before the flood. Nephilim and there were also Nephilim after the flood - Noah was Nephilim and all that lived before the flood were Nephilim.

And they lived about 900 years.

So by comparison to our ages - vastly longer lived and compared to our physical ability - giants.

Just the way it was when man was created by God. Nothing more than that.

Sons of God - refer to the saints - the people of God - as we find in John 1 "to as many as believed on Him to them He gave the right to be called the sons of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jipsah]

And for what is, I think, the second time, you and I are in complete agreement. All the nonsense about "nephilim" who are human/angelic hybrids is unScriptural rubbish. I wish folks would spent more time studying the New Testament rather than dreaming up nonsensical stories based upon the OT. We'd all be better off.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

1. Angels don't have the ability to have children as Christ points out in Matt 22 -- they are not created to participate in that - in any way.

Read Matt 22:30 very closely before you speak what it says.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

What Jesus said is exactly this: the angels of God in heaven can't marry. Jesus said nothing about angels on earth or angels mixed with men on earth or angels not of God/demons not in heaven.

I know scripture does not say a lot about this subject, but don't dismiss what little is said.

2. Gen 6 does not say that there were giants as a result of women and the sons of God being married.

It says that exactly. Nephilim are giants.
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

The text says that there were giants before the flood. Nephilim and there were also Nephilim after the flood - Noah was Nephilim and all that lived before the flood were Nephilim.

Gen 6:1-7 comprise a complaint of God on man, including the Nephilim. In no way is Noah said to be a Nephilim. Noah was unique among the wicked that fiiled the earth in that day, such that God chose to save only 8 in his family. The Nephilim are called out in the texts as also unique, being men of renown, this with giant are hardly attributes to be applied to all.

And they lived about 900 years.

So by comparison to our ages - vastly longer lived and compared to our physical ability - giants.

Just the way it was when man was created by God. Nothing more than that.

It is well understood that pre-flood men lived very long. Scripture in no way connects this as a unique quality of the Nephilim. The long age of men clearly decreased post flood when men became carnivores and the firmament of solar isolating moisture in the sky was lost. Note that Genesis records the Nephilim living after the flood, even when the longevity decreased.

Sons of God - refer to the saints - the people of God - as we find in John 1 "to as many as believed on Him to them He gave the right to be called the sons of God.

Nice try. In the Old Testament sons of God has a different meaning than your New Testament quote. Job clearly points out.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
​

There is no doubt sons of God in these three passages all refer to angels and not "saints".

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

All the nonsense about "nephilim" who are human/angelic hybrids is unScriptural rubbish.

It is fact that there have been giants. We have found fossils of some. Scripture has multiple passages describing other giants, the Anakim related to Nephilim and living in the promised land when Israel conquered it.

Certainly there is debate as to the origin of the Nephilim, but it is clear that they were a unique class/race of people. The source of this debate is purely scriptural, even if spartan in detail.

But, please apply some thinking skills. What origin do you have for Nephilim? Have Christian men mated with attractive women to create mighty giants, heroes. Not that I have seen. Does being a spiritual child of God have any bearing on our genetics to make us taller? No.

What better makes a mighty giant but a mighty being, of which angels are described.
2 Pet 2:11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power,

I wish folks would spent more time studying the New Testament rather than dreaming up nonsensical stories based upon the OT. We'd all be better off.

Do you think we would be better off without the Old Testament?
Do you also dismiss other outlandish Old Testament stories?
Do you deny creation in six days?
Do you deny a world wide flood?
Do you deny Samson being so strong to kill thousands by hand?
Do you deny a prophet running faster than a horse?
Do you deny a prophet raising one from the dead?

If you deny any of these as being outlandish, then you might as well deny the resurrection of Christ as outlandish.

 

[BobRyan]

And for what is, I think, the second time, you and I are in complete agreement. All the nonsense about "nephilim" who are human/angelic hybrids is unScriptural rubbish. I wish folks would spent more time studying the New Testament rather than dreaming up nonsensical stories based upon the OT. We'd all be better off.

Amen!

I would like to know who started that one - and why.

 

[BobRyan]

It is fact that there have been giants. We have found fossils of some. Scripture has multiple passages describing other giants, the Anakim related to Nephilim and living in the promised land when Israel conquered it.

The question is not whether they were larger in size before the flood or whether they lived to longer ages than we do today.

The question is about this notion that in order to do that they had to "marry fallen angels" as if God would have created angels as men fully capable of reproduction - but just not create women angels - leaving it to fallen angels to go find women from other species so they could then have giant children. (A not so subtle re-telling of Greek mythology)

It is all a lot of made up stories - massive inference poured into one verse in Gen 6 when in fact Gen 6 does not say that the source of the giants is "fallen angels".

Nor does Genesis 6 say "some were Nephilim some were not" -- they were all Nephilim and the fact that Nephilim appear after the flood - means Noah was also Nephilim.

Matt 22 is clear Angles have no biology at all that participates in family making.

The reason that God mentions the saints of pre-flood age falling and entermaryhing with the wicked - the daughters of cain who were not called the sons of God - is because as Jesus said "you are the salt of the earth, if the salt loses its savor what can be used to salt-the-salt" -- the earth had lost its witness among the saints who were corrupted by being unequally yoked with the wicked through marriage.

And what follows in the Gen 6 account is the downward free fall of earth into wickedness.

Far more every-day-likely than demons mating with mankind so that some people are giants. If that were the true source then there would be no Nephilim after the flood.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The question is not whether they were larger in size before the flood or whether they lived to longer ages than we do today.

I have already discredited your age argument as having nothing to do with the Nephilim. I am glad that you acknowledge there were larger people, but even here your understanding of giants is lacking.

A giant is a relative term. If everyone was 20 feet tall, there would be no giants. It is only when you have short and tall that the word giant has any meaning.

The question is about this notion that in order to do that they had to "marry fallen angels" as if God would have created angels as men fully capable of reproduction - but just not create women angels - leaving it to fallen angels to go find women from other species so they could then have giant children. (A not so subtle re-telling of Greek mythology)

I did reference Greek mythology in the OP. If you would look into the origin of the English word "giants" that the KJV uses for Nephilim, you would realize that the Greek word Gigantes meant a race of part human part god people. You would also see a common characteristic with the Gen. 6 account. This Greek mythical race of people were of great strength and aggression and they battled against the gods.

How ironic that the word giant meant and had its origin in what you say is pure conjecture and story tales.

It is all a lot of made up stories - massive inference poured into one verse in Gen 6 when in fact Gen 6 does not say that the source of the giants is "fallen angels".

You're correct, it doesn't say fallen angels, it says "sons of God" mated with women and bore children that were known as Nephilim. They were a unique race of people in a time before the creation of races and scattering of DNA by God as a result of the Tower of Babel. We know it was a race of people, meaning there were descendants from them. The book of Numbers account the descendants and relatives of Nephilim being of great size.

It is largely agreed who the Nephilim are. They are a race of large and mighty people known as heroes by the majority of the populace. Also the "daughters of men" that bore them is also largely agreed to be attractive but normal women. It is conjecture to say the woman were wicked though. The "sons of God" being the "father" of the Nephilim is the question debated.

While the New Testament in the English language calls saints sons of God, it is a translation from a Greek word. The Old Testament written in Hebrew uses a different word that just happens to be translated also into sons of God. Being different words they have different meanings. In the Old Testament it means angels. It is assumed that only fallen angels would sin so greatly as to mate with humans.

I would further add that Gen 6:2 implies rampant promiscuity among the "sons of God". I would never interpret "sons of God" to be the righteous followers. Add to this the description of the Nephilim being in the middle of God's judgement on mankind. Contrast the description of the wickedness
of the world in verses 1-8 with how Noah is described. Not with the words "son of God" or Nephilim, but with righteous/blameless man.

Nor does Genesis 6 say "some were Nephilim some were not" -- they were all Nephilim and the fact that Nephilim appear after the flood - means Noah was also Nephilim.

Is there logic in your argument? Scripture doesn't say some were Nephilim so it must mean all where Nephilim. If everyone was a giant before the flood and there were giants after the flood than Noah would also make giants. Using your logic; we would still be giants today, since we are descendants of Noah.

Not! As I said before, if everyone was a giant, no one would be a giant. Giant is a relative term. It calls out a few that far exceed normal/smaller variations in height. Further the Nephilim are explicitly called out among the wicked men in the time of the flood, but Noah is called out as an exception, not being the same as the wicked of his day. This implies not being Nephilim.

Matt 22 is clear Angles have no biology at all that participates in family making.

I have already posted that you do not read this scripture as written. You who think this OP conjecture, do so with Matt 22. Matt 22 only speaks to angels in heaven at the time of Jesus speaking. Jesus could also have said we will be like angels in heaven and never sin. Does that mean that all angelic beings never disobeyed God? Does that mean we don't sin now on earth?

Likewise, we who can now reproduce, can not in heaven. Is that because we have no biology in heaven? Using your logic, because we will be like angels in heaven, we were never able to reproduce outside of heaven. Obviously we reproduce on earth, not in heaven. Obviously we have different characteristics on earth vs. in heaven.

We know that angels are spirits, but they have taken the form of men on earth. It is a reasonable argument that angels are different in heaven than on earth, just as we are.

Also just because one is limited in heaven does not mean that the same creatures are under the same limitation outside of heaven. One more example, we know of demon/fallen angel possessions in humans, but there is no account of a good angel possessing people.

I hope you understand and agree that the rules/order in heaven are not the same as now and here on earth.

The reason that God mentions the saints of pre-flood age falling and entermaryhing with the wicked - the daughters of cain who were not called the sons of God - is because as Jesus said "you are the salt of the earth, if the salt loses its savor what can be used to salt-the-salt" -- the earth had lost its witness among the saints who were corrupted by being unequally yoked with the wicked through marriage.

You fail to understand genetics. People's decisions do not change their genetics. Godly men marrying attractive wicked women do not make giants that are the mighty men and heroes of the day. Further, descendants of them would not inherit any special gene that also makes them giants because of their ancestory. Your argument makes much less sense than mine.

Does your logic still apply today? Are children of wicked mothers tall? Not! Or does it also require the woman to be attractive for the children to be tall?

And what follows in the Gen 6 account is the downward free fall of earth into wickedness.

Far more every-day-likely than demons mating with mankind so that some people are giants. If that were the true source then there would be no Nephilim after the flood.

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Gen 6 does not describe a downward spiral of humanity. It describes the end of 1500 years of a downward spiral. It was so bad that God was disgusted with his creation. Things may be bad in the world today, but I hope us better than at the time of the flood. Your "every-day-likely" description of the wickedness of that time is a casual under-representation of how truly evil they were. Exemplified of this evil is a description of "sons of God" mating with women. Scripture says the world was corrupt and violent, but the only specific sin listed was the mating of "sons of God" with women.

If "sons of God" were just godly men and they sinned by marrying wicked women, is that really bad, any worse than today? Hardly what I would call the worst expression of wickedness. For me, I would go with God's judgement on Israel for sacrificing their children to false idols. Much worse.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

AnticipateHisComing,

I don't know much of this topic and am glad you started the thread. I think that you are making some very good points here.

So thanks for sharing Brother!

 

[ViaCrucis]

It is fact that there have been giants. We have found fossils of some. Scripture has multiple passages describing other giants, the Anakim related to Nephilim and living in the promised land when Israel conquered it.

Let's be clear on the meaning of "giants". One such "giant" was Goliath, who according to the oldest attestations--LXX, Josephus, and DSS--was about as tall as a modern NBA athlete, at about 6'7".

Mythically giant people of the fee-fi-fo-fum variety certainly didn't exist and we don't have skeletal or fossil remains of such "giants". Persons reaching beyond 8ft tall would be suffering from gigantism and be in incredibly poor health, the human (or even human-like) skeleton simply can't support that kind of height.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[yeshuasavedme]

There was a question in the Unorthodox area that prompted me to ponder the difference between Beget and Conceive. Since I don't normally read the KJV, I was missing how these words are used in scripture. While searching scripture I found the words are not used interchangeably. I also think I found evidence from Jesus' incarnation an explanation of the Nephilim.

Beget, begot, begat are all used to describe an action of a man.
Conceive always refers to what happens in a female.
Also learn that only men beget, but animals and women conceive.

Since scripture is so consistent in its use of these words, I believe they have different meanings.

From the creation account we know that we humans are created in the image of God. Now we know this is not a physical concept but a spirit concept. We have both body and soul. The body is flesh, like other animals. What distinguishes us apart from all animals is our soul and its ability for God's Spirit to dwell in us.

The image of God Adam is made in is the physical flesh.
Romans 5:14 states that fact.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure/tupos/image of him that was to come.

Genesis 9:6 states that as fact

Whoso sheddeth Adam's blood, by Adam shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he Adam.

In the Word, animals are also souls which have bodies by the spirit of their kind building the body in the womb at conception of the seed of the kind - done by the life force/spirit of the kind, which is obeying the Creater of the kind, to "be fruitful and multiply its own kind..


whether a body of flesh, or of pure energy -like the lightnings, who are God's forces of power who answer to Him when He calls -Job

Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?

Or the spirit/life forces of the winds and the waters, called His angels, by Him who created them.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

in the book of Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam -which book is Scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox canon, Enoch was given the history of the world from beginning to the end in totemic imagery dream visions. From that we learn the Eve was black, Adam white, Cain black, Abel red, and Seth was the first one who "looked like daddy" as to his own color.
Color was always diverse in the tribes of Adam, and God never separated Adam tribes by color, but by tongues, and by dividing the land, and by scattering the tribes over the earth, when He shortened the life spans from the time of the rebellion\ at the tower of Bab-el.
Genetic diversity became much more limited when the trbes scattered by tongues over the earth. Noah's sons were also shown in the dream visions as red, black, and white.
These things are all covered in the Book of Enoch, which Moses did not need to rewrite for Israel, but redacted the history of them in the Torah, because they were already written.

Now let's look at marriage. Jesus said there is no marriage or procreation in heaven.

Jesus repeated what the Book of Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam wrote, from the words of God in heaven. You will find a link to that here: The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912

So if there is no procreation in heaven, what happens when heaven and earth mix.

Exactly what would have happened if Adam -both the first male and the female Adam persons- had lived his thousand year day, been translated to the Glory, and the earth would have gone on forever producing sons of God of the Adam kind [Adam, son of God -Luke 3:38], for the Glory to indwell, as the temple of God not made with hands.
Earth will go on forever after its regeneration, but Adam flesh and spirit will be cut off forever, as circumcision signs, on the 8th day of creation.
The new man is named "Israel", [invoked over Jacob as the sign of the adoption to come, when the body is regenerated].
The Firstborn son of God, who is God come in flesh of new creation, like Adam was created, but sinless, is not an Adam flesh person, but a new creation flesh, named "Israel" -Isaiah 49 is clear, as are other Scriptures.

The very short description of Nephilim or giants has puzzled many. lf you look closely to the exact words used, I think we can get a better understanding of what they were, the union of a spirit and a woman that bore flesh.

Gen 6:2 That the [angels]sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
4 There were giants[Nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the [angels]sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.​

The reason it is short is stated above: Moses had Enoch, as all the patriarchs did, and Moses did not need to rewrite it.
It is fully covered in the Book of Enoch.

​

Many have argued over "sons of God" being either angels or men/God's elect.

The Hebrew of Genesis 6 follows Enoch's writings and does not leave any argument to be had: "Ben Elohim laqach bath Adam" ="sons of God took/married daughters of Adam".

So is it possible for angels/spirits to conceive with women? ...

Thoughts anyone? There may be speculation in the OP and there are many other fanciful stories based on the Nephilim, but lease try and keep the comments mostly scriptural.

Enoch tells us the fallen angels taught the "cutting of roots" =gene spicing, and made their wives pregnant, with their own evil spirits using the genetic flesh material got from their Adam flesh wives.

In the Book of Enoch, God condemned the disembodied spirits of the nephillim to roam earth afflicting, seducing, tormenting the flesh of Adam because their flesh bodies were got from Adam, by splicing genes of their wives, until Christ would come and atone for the sins of all Adam, and He would cast out demons, whose ultimate end is the Lake of Fire, where they, themselves, will be tormented forever by the satans -evil angels created by God, with one prince "Mastema =prince of the satans", to be evil, and whose kingdom is the Lake of Fire, where they are forever shut in that blackness of darkness forever -they love darkness- feasting on the torments they inflict, justly, legally, and lawfully, over their prey.

Its all in Enoch.

 

[1watchman]

I will just add an essential fact here, and that is: Angels are sexless, as Scripture shows and are spiritual beings, though manifested at times in human form for a work or message by God and nothing more. The Lord Jesus was God manifested in human form for God's purposes ---certainly not to please Himself.

The thought in Genesis 6:1-2 only shows that the sons of Seth as God's people were mingling with the world, which was ungodly, and the Lord warned that "My spirit shall not always strive with man". We need to keep "all the counsel of God" before us and not guess at a verse here and there.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I will just add an essential fact here, and that is: Angels are sexless, as Scripture shows and are spiritual beings, though manifested at times in human form for a work or message by God and nothing more. The Lord Jesus was God manifested in human form for God's purposes ---certainly not to please Himself.

In fact, the flesh body that God is come in and died in and which could not corrupt in three days and three nights in, which He is raised in and ascended in and glorified in and is returning to reign in, was created as "new man flesh" specifically and exactly for God the Word to extend His Spirit into, so as to do the pleasure of God the Father, in.

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

"delight" is the word "pleasure", and as Enoch wrote of Him, it was to do all His pleasure that He was to come and is come, to fulfill the Atonement as written in Psalm 118.


When angels appear in flesh bodies to do the will of God on earth, they can do anything in those flesh bodies that an Adam flesh person does, but they do more, for they are mightier. Those flesh bodies they put on for doing the will of God and judges and ministers of God on earth are not their habitation in heaven. They left their own abode in heaven, to remain in those bodies of flesh, and take daughters of Adam, as Jude also wrote [Jude was quoting Enoch]. and get offspring.

Those watcher angels who were judges and rulers over earth who were tempted by the satans and took an oath to curse themselves at Mount Hermon, the place of their descent [and which is called Mount Hermon since then, because it means "oath"], willfully chose to rebel against God's commands and to remain in those bodies and take daughters of Adam and get offspring of their own fallen spirits through the genetic, Adam flesh, material of their wives flesh, and they are cursed forever and were chained in Sheol below to warn other watcher angels not to do that fornication with daughters of Adam, as Jude so writes.
-but more wartcher angels did the same after the flood as before, they did not heed the warning of the wrath to come, just like those who practice the same fornication sin as the Sodomites did, who do not heed the warning of everlasting fire rained on Sodom and the cities of the plain =the wellspring of judgment, as Genesis 14 writes of that place, which judgement of fire coined the word "Hades/Kadesh/Kades" -Genesis 14; and Jude puts the sins of fornication of both the chained angels and the destroyed Sodomites & co as "going after strange flesh =fornication".

The thought in Genesis 6:1-2 only shows that the sons of Seth as God's people were mingling with the world, which was ungodly...

You are speaking a myth made by men who do not believe the Word of God, and it is not got by study of the Word or of looking at the Word itself, for there is not one mention of sons of Seth in Genesis 6, but indeed, the Word says "sons of God/ben Elohym", "took daughters of Adam/laqach bath Adam".
"Daughters of Adam"! "Daughters of Adam" cannot mean anything other than "daughters of Adam" and "Ben Elohym" cannot mean anything other than "sons of God".
Sons of God took daughters of Adam, and went in to them, and giants were born, before the flood and after the flood, and those who did so before the flood are chained in Sheol as a warning to all watcher angels not to do that....Jude says -but they did, Moses says, and we see it in the history of the Israelites, when they battled them.
In fact there is a lion /god mixed monster created by gene splicing in 1Ch 11:22 Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the son of a valiant man of Kabzeel, who had done many acts; he slew two lion elof Moab: also he went down and slew a lion in a pit in a snowy day.

Moab was particularly a spot where genetic mixing went on, long after the flood. The Emim [means terrors] were monsters of mixed genetic material, taught by the fallen ones, as Enoch said.


Deu 2:11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
The English translators had no idea how to translate the יֵמִים yem, that Anah found in the wilderness of Moab, but the same word is Emim and means terrors. [
Emims = "terrors", -blb


אֵימִים 'Eymiym
Moses remarked on "this was that Anah who found the יֵמִים yem", in Genesis 36:24, which was redacted information from the "Upright Record", the history book of the Patriarchs called the Book of Jasher.

Jasher 36: 28-35

28

And the sons of Shobal were Alvan, Manahath, Ebal, Shepho, and Onam, and the sons of Zibeon were Ajah, and Anah, this was that Anah who found the Yemim in the wilderness when he fed the asses of Zibeon his father.
29

And whilst he was feeding his father's asses he led them to the wilderness at different times to feed them.
30

And there was a day that he brought them to one of the deserts on the sea shore, opposite the wilderness of the people, and whilst he was feeding them, behold a very heavy storm came from the other side of the sea and rested upon the asses that were feeding there, and they all stood still.
31

And afterward about one hundred and twenty great and terrible animals came out from the wilderness at the other side of the sea, and they all came to the place where the asses were, and they placed themselves there.
32

And those animals, from their middle downward, were in the shape of the children of men, and from their middle upward, some had the likeness of bears, and some the likeness of the keephas, with tails behind them from between their shoulders reaching down to the earth, like the tails of the ducheephath, and these animals came and mounted and rode upon these asses, and led them away, and they went away unto this day.
33

And one of these animals approached Anah and smote him with his tail, and then fled from that place.
34

And when he saw this work he was exceedingly afraid of his life, and he fled and escaped to the city.
35

And he related to his sons and brothers all that had happened to him, and many men went to seek the asses but could not find them, and Anah and his brothers went no more to that place from that day following, for they were greatly afraid of their lives.

Jasher Chapter 36 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887

 

[Jipsah]

Its all in Enoch.

I'm sure it is. And as you'll recall, we've discussed the fact that a whole lot of the stuff that's in Enoch is observably untrue. Whoever wrote using Enoch's name made up stuff out of whole cloth and tried to pass it off as revelation. The capper was his detailed description of the sun and its behavior, which is simply hilarious. He believed that the sun was constructed of crystal, and that it scooted in and out of portals or doors at various times and seasons. It probably sounded pretty good to folks who had no instruments for observing the sun even indirectly, and who didn't have a way of knowing what was going on when the sun was below the horizon. But now it's an obvious flight of fancy, with no possibility of having been any sort of divine revelation,

Sorry if the Ethiopians got gulled into sticking "Enoch" in their canon, but there's no reason for us to make the same mistake. No harm in reading it, I suppose, but no reason at all to believe it, or worse yet, consider it Holy Writ.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jipsah, your opinions are unsupported with Scripture or history or with ancient Jewish writings, all of which corroborate the Book of Enoch.

Your opinions are not supported by the Word of God. That which is written as fact in the Word of God and in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in the Book of Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, all corroborate Enoch the prophet's writings, as well as what Ezekiel, John, Moses and others wrote.

Enoch was there, did see, and did report, as John also did see and report, and as Isaiah and Ezekiel, and others also did.
I believe the observations of Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, of the God of Glory whom Enoch saw in His holy Temple in heaven are of much more value than anyone's biased and uninformed opinion.

John was in the temple in heaven, too.
And the Word of God does indeed say that God has set His temple in the sun, in Psalm 18, [several translations -19 in other translations]
The Hebrew original says it.
The ancient Greek Septuagint says it.
The Latin Vulgate says it, and the Douay-Rheims English says it.
Unbelieving man has changed the Word from that truth of the original, supposing themselves to be wiser than God, who wrote by His Spirit, through men, what He wanted to say.

Psalm 19 in other versions

Psalm 18, Douay-Rheims [1] Unto the end. A psalm for David. [2] The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands. [3] Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge. [4] There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard. [5] Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world.
[6] He hath set his tabernacle in the sun: and he, as a bridegroom coming out of his bride chamber, Hath rejoiced as a giant to run the way: [7] His going out is from the end of heaven, And his circuit even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide himself from his heat.

So what's it like in the temple God set in the sun for His dwelling place?
John says it is like this:

Rev 4: After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created

Ezekiel saw Him come out, sitting on His throne:

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.
7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.
8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.
9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.
12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.
15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one [Ophannim]/wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.
16 The appearance of the [Ophannim]/wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a [Ophannim]/wheel in the middle of a [Ophannim]/wheel.
17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.
18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.
19 And when the living creatures went, the [Ophannim]/wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the [Ophannim]/wheels were lifted up.
20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the [Ophannim]/wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the [Ophannim]/wheels.
21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the [Ophannim]/wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the [Ophannim]/wheels.
22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.
24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of an Adam above upon it.
27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face.

Enoch saw like this:

Come Up Here!8And the vision was shown to me thus: Behold, in the vision clouds invited me and a mist summoned me, and the course of the stars and the lightnings sped and hastened me, and the winds in the vision caused me to fly and lifted me upward, and bore me into heaven. 9And I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire: and it began to affright me. 10And I went into the tongues of fire and drew nigh to a large house which was built of crystals: and the walls of the house were like a tesselated floor made of crystals, and its groundwork was of crystal. 11Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were fiery cherubim, and their heaven was clear as water. 12A flaming fire surrounded the walls, and its portals blazed with fire. 13And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there were no delights of life therein: fear covered me, and trembling got hold upon me. 14And as I quaked and trembled, I fell upon my face.

The Vision of the Great Glory
15And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater than the former, and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. 16And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to you its splendour and its extent. 17And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire. 18And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of cherubim. 19And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look thereon. 20And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and was whiter than any snow. 21None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason of the magnificence and glory, and no flesh could behold Him. 22The flaming fire was round about Him, and a great fire stood before Him, and none around could draw nigh Him: ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him, yet He needed no counsellor. 23And the most holy ones who were nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him.
24And until then I had been prostrate on my face, trembling: and the Lord called me with His own mouth, and said to me: "Come hither, Enoch, and hear my word."
25And one of the holy ones came to me and waked

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Let's be clear on the meaning of "giants". One such "giant" was Goliath, who according to the oldest attestations--LXX, Josephus, and DSS--was about as tall as a modern NBA athlete, at about 6'7".

Do you deny scripture speaks of giants? King Saul was taller than his people by a head. So would a Goliath only six inches taller than him be a giant? Other sources put Goliath at over 9 feet tall. That is worthy of the distinction giant.

You think Josephus so authoritative. He said the "giants" were from angels women. He also wrote of giants and remains of giants in his days.

You think the DSS the source of truth. It has the book of Enoch that says the Nempilim were from angels and women.

Regardless, you can't deny scripture records in multiple places a race of "giants" whose physical stature was so intimidating to them.

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

Mythically giant people of the fee-fi-fo-fum variety certainly didn't exist and we don't have skeletal or fossil remains of such "giants". Persons reaching beyond 8ft tall would be suffering from gigantism and be in incredibly poor health, the human (or even human-like) skeleton simply can't support that kind of height.

You have absolutely no way to prove what you assert, giant people didn't exist. People today say it would be impossible for a human to live 900 years, but the Bible says it happened back then. You say there were no giants, the Bible says there were. The origin of which is debated.

There have been accounts of giant fossils. There exist fossils of giant skulls and other fragments of skeleton.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

You are speaking a myth made by men who do not believe the Word of God, and it is not got by study of the Word or of looking at the Word itself, for there is not one mention of sons of Seth in Genesis 6, but indeed, the Word says "sons of God/ben Elohym", "took daughters of Adam/laqach bath Adam".
"Daughters of Adam"! "Daughters of Adam" cannot mean anything other than "daughters of Adam" and "Ben Elohym" cannot mean anything other than "sons of God".
Sons of God took daughters of Adam, and went in to them, and giants were born, before the flood and after the flood, and those who did so before the flood are chained in Sheol as a warning to all watcher angels not to do that....Jude says -but they did, Moses says, and we see it in the history of the Israelites, when they battled them.

Good response!

Where are all the posters that argue for understanding the original language of scripture? The English translation of a Hebrew word in the Old Testament to "sons of God" has a completely different meaning than the English translation of a Greek word in the New Testament to the same "sons of God".

And then some will further misstate the scripture to mean "sons of Seth" or godly men. The whole message of the flood is the pervasive wickedness of all men. Among the wicked and violence of the people of the day, only this marriage of the "sons of God" with attractive women is called out as most offensive to God.

Now look at the account of Sodom. God said he would not destroy the city if there were only 10 righteous people. In the flood, God destroyed all because there were only 8 worth saving. It is gross misunderstanding of the Bible to think that the Nephilim are those born of righteous men marrying wicked women; for there were no righteous men living except Noah.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Its all in Enoch.

I'm sure it is. And as you'll recall, we've discussed the fact that a whole lot of the stuff that's in Enoch is observably untrue. Whoever wrote using Enoch's name made up stuff out of whole cloth and tried to pass it off as revelation. The capper was his detailed description of the sun and its behavior, which is simply hilarious. He believed that the sun was constructed of crystal, and that it scooted in and out of portals or doors at various times and seasons. It probably sounded pretty good to folks who had no instruments for observing the sun even indirectly, and who didn't have a way of knowing what was going on when the sun was below the horizon. But now it's an obvious flight of fancy, with no possibility of having been any sort of divine revelation,

Sorry if the Ethiopians got gulled into sticking "Enoch" in their canon, but there's no reason for us to make the same mistake. No harm in reading it, I suppose, but no reason at all to believe it, or worse yet, consider it Holy Writ.

You can't dismiss everything yeshuasavedme says because he also quotes the Book of Enoch. If you used such logic you would dismiss Jude because it also quotes the Book of Enoch.

Why don't you try to actually argue why you believe what you do instead of just attacking one church's inclusion of the Book of Enoch. How would that argument work for a Protestant arguing with a Catholic? "Oh all your arguments are incorrect because you also believe in these other books of the Bible."

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Good response!

Where are all the posters that argue for understanding the original language of scripture? The English translation of a Hebrew word in the Old Testament to "sons of God" has a completely different meaning than the English translation of a Greek word in the New Testament to the same "sons of God".

And then some will further misstate the scripture to mean "sons of Seth" or godly men. The whole message of the flood is the pervasive wickedness of all men. Among the wicked and violence of the people of the day, only this marriage of the "sons of God" with attractive women is called out as most offensive to God.

Now look at the account of Sodom. God said he would not destroy the city if there were only 10 righteous people. In the flood, God destroyed all because there were only 8 worth saving. It is gross misunderstanding of the Bible to think that the Nephilim are those born of righteous men marrying wicked women; for there were no righteous men living except Noah.

Thank you.
The genetic corruption of "all" flesh was that which caused the violence on earth that sent the flood, because men did not repent in the 120 years Noah and Methuseleh preached.
Of course, Noah and family's flesh was not genetically corrupted, nor were any of the created kinds corrupted in their flesh that Noah took on the ark, so the word "all" does not mean every single absolute soul's flesh of all kinds was corrupted.
In fact, God gave man time to repent in that 120 years and he would not have sent the flood if they had. Mankind was collaborating with the fallen angels and their offspring to genetically modify "all flesh", which includes causing giants of all flesh to be in the earth.
It is known again, today, that the genetic manipulation of the kinds can
increase the size of the kinds, and with the increase of the size, the strength is increased.
Look it up, I read it within the past few months somewhere, and the unethical discussions are going on that they can do it to make "servants" to work for man, out of exceedingly strong genetically modified "beasts".

History tells us that Maximus Thrax, emperor of Rome at one time, was 8.6" tall and a remnant of the giants of Thrace. He was evil, violent, murderous, with no morals, and killed his own son. He was exceedingly strong.
When the Word of God tells us so and so "was a remnant of the giants", it is speaking of the spirit that one has, with the flesh of it, which is not the Adam spirit, though they used the Adam flesh to begin their evil by modifying it's information to grow a flesh body for their own spirit.

Point of that is that we are all one Adam spirit, and are all the the seed of the Adam creation flesh "firstborn" -the head and father of our race. The Word is clear that all Adam is one spirit, one flesh, one blood, one bone, and made male and female.
Genesis 5:2

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

2Sa 5:1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh.


Mal 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue/share of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

If you check the above Scripture in the original you see that the one spirit made is the Adam spirit, which all have the residue/share of, both male and female have their share of and the body for the conceived soul to live in as their house, is built by that one Adam spirit, in the womb.


So the Creator built the female/ishyah flesh from the residue of the Adam spirit which was residual in that bone and flesh of the male Adam/ish.

Not so with the giants. They have no residue/share of the Adam spirit in their flesh, which flesh was stolen by genetic manipulation of the ovum of their wives of the daughters of Adam.
The giants have the modified flesh of the Adam creation but the spirit of the evil fallen angels.

The angels also mixed with all created kinds to create monsters in the earth.
In the passage in a prior post, the lion-el was a mixed kind of a nephillim and a lion. The English translators of the Hebrew did not know what to do with that, since men had discounted the Word that of old was known and believed, and so they said "lionlike man", but the Word says "lion El".

So God sent the flood and cleansed the earth, and the animals who went on the ark were not corrupted in their flesh, but were their own kinds, and none mixed, and no genetic manipulation had gone on in them to increase their stature and strength.
You can read more on this in the DSS, Book of the Giants which is also attributed to Enoch, and also the Book of Jasher, besides the Book of Enoch.

Apparently it takes ten generations of inbreeding with the Adam for a remnant of the giants to be Adam flesh, with no taint of the evil of the spirit of the giants, for a canaanite was not to come into the house of YHWH for ten generations.
The female does not pass on the spirit. That comes only from the father, and is inherent in the seed of the Adam, but from manipulation of life's roots, the fallen angels started their own "remnants of their fallen spirits" in modified flesh.
Jos 12:4 And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,

 

[SummaScriptura]

Amen!

I would like to know who started that one - and why.

Before 70 AD it was the ONLY way godly Jewish believers wrote about Gen. 6:1-4. Take Jude. He says "in the same way as these" sinful angels, Sodomites went after strange flesh.