"Before the Lord": Should Messianic Fellowships allow Dance/the Arts in Service?

[yedida]

I find more skin at the Christian churches I've attended then at any MJ congregation.

That's for sure!!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No offence taken, Easy G. .

Cool to know .

It just grates me (just my personality) when men or women are grouped together as if everyone is the same--as in all men lust no matter where they are, lol. I worked for a company and someone stabbed himself with a screwdriver in the leg. Yep, next thing we got papers and a safety meeting on how to use a screwdriver properly, and everyone had to have their screwdrivers protected with a cover.

Some of what you stated reminds me of the issue of over-correction, where one can end up veering OFF of the road due to going too far toward one side of it and then jerking the wheel too violently in the other direction. The issue of women/men being grouped together is a similar issue, as it is something that can be taken way overboard...


And as brought up before, trying to discuss the subject of lust from a "men vs women" perspective only goes so far when choosing to ignore the other pertinent reality of what often goes down with SAME-SEX attractions from others. One can say they wish to have women dress moderately and that's appropriate (though defining that/what that looks like for both men and women is another issue)------and yet, even with that, there'll always be issue since women seperated into groups by themselves must still deal with women WITHIN their groups who'll lust over them. It is not a hidden factor or reality that women are capable of lust/wrong sexual and emotional desires JUST as much as men are.....and there have been issues with people of the same gender together.

 

[Temptinfates]

Good post, Easy

 

[Desert Rose]

Let's face it - if we as women of faith needed to dress so that no man would even consider lusting, then we'd have a full wardrobe of burkas. Heck even then some guy would find a way to have lascivious thoughts. "Weaker brother syndrome" sometimes needs to be addressed.

goooood point. Collegemates used to confess to us they lust after girls in sweatpants/shirts/winter coats just as much as in miniskirts.But i agree , dressing modestly is a goal we often fail at.

deviladvocating: Its harder for us then your/my mom gen, societal standards shifted. Unthinkable then- norm now.Girls get makeup sets (!)for 8-9th B-days.Not facepaint to draw butterflies on cheeks, actual "training" makeup.
***
Dont know how to help guys overcome lusting after us ; but I have a perf solution for women to overcome lusting, in my church at least- All men should come in naked! or well, in swimtrunks.

 

[yedida]

goooood point. Collegemates used to confess to us they lust after girls in sweatpants/shirts/winter coats just as much as in miniskirts.But i agree , dressing modestly is a goal we often fail at.

deviladvocating: Its harder for us then your/my mom gen, societal standards shifted. Unthinkable then- norm now.Girls get makeup sets (!)for 8-9th B-days.Not facepaint to draw butterflies on cheeks, actual "training" makeup.
***
Dont know how to help guys overcome lusting after us ; but I have a perf solution for women to overcome lusting, in my church at least- All men should come in naked! or well, in swimtrunks.

Now that was a picture I could've lived without for a long time!!!

 

[Tishri1]

lol.....not to join the ranks of those who wanna restrict movement in the Shul, but should anyone want guidelines for modesty in congregational dance, we at KA developed one and have it written down to hand out to folks, should anyone come....errrrr....immodestly dressed to dance with us.
PM me and I will let you see it

 

[visionary]

All for the halacha of it all..

 

[MessianicMommy]

Vis, you brought up the dancing at the bottom of Har Sinai with the Golden Calf - would you group that dancing with that of Miriam and the women at The Sea of Reeds or anywhere else, or David and the others dancing?

Easy, thanks for those posts. You said it better than I could even muster to try.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Collegemates used to confess to us they lust after girls in sweatpants/shirts/winter coats just as much as in miniskirts. But i agree , dressing modestly is a goal we often fail at.

If I may say,

I agree with you when it comes to the issue of how men can lust over women regardless of the ways in which they dress....and modesty, on behalf of men/women, does go a LONG way. I do think its rather attractive to see women who dress in ways that don't show off all of the skin that they have and try to show something of what used to be known as feminine mystique.

However, what I've also seen is that modesty is something that perhaps should be considered for men as well. For as much as it seems many may not address it, women are able to lust over men JUST as much/just as hard as men may struggle with them....

As it concerns the ability of women to lust over men just as much as men may over women---be it with men preaching from the pulpit or seeing men interact with others in the fellowship-----as another said best from one of my favorite ministries:

There is such a thing as inappropriate contentography for women — the steamy sort of novel euphemistically sold as "romance" but known in the trade as the "bodice-ripper." ("Taken captive by the alarmingly virile sultan of a dangerously exotic land, Pippa was promptly draped in diaphanous lingerie and clapped into his glittering palace harem. Could she escape? Worse, once the darkly romantic Mikolar made her his 'wife,' would she even want to?") It's also true that some women become ensnared in the more conventionally male sort of inappropriate contentography. Readers of either sex who are ensnared by it may find help HERE.


​

I thought that was spot-on...and thankfully, they have many other articles/podcasts on the subject that are amazing. On the subject, in discussing the issue with other young adults/older adults in ministry, I've seen the same. IMHO, I think what brings us even more trouble for women is that for them, lust isn't defined as purely sexual. ..for its much more complex. Lust for women is not only physical, but emotional and mental and can come in many forms. They can not only lust in the area of male companionship, but in the areas of wardrobes, body types, home status and many other things. And for anyone NOT believing me, one can go NO further than reading many of the women's magazines I see often at the grocery store-----from Cosmopolitan, Glamour or many others that ACTIVELY give out tips on how to seduce men.....and are full of lustful commentary. There are countless numbers of women who seem to be underground fans of lustful shows such as Sex and the City and "Desperate Housewives"... It always shockes me to see it in action..


I think we'd all be lying to ourselves if saying that today's society feeds lust for women as well as men. How many love watching a great romantic movie, reading a romance novel, or turning on a good soap? All of those things often give a very skewed notion of what relationships should be like...and women then choose to interpret men through that lens/filter and wonder why they're dissapointed. For they are constantly receiving a distorted image of true relationships.


For other places to consider discussing the issue of WOMEN and lust, one can go to the following for their own investigation:

• The Curse of Eve
• Boundless: Glossy Lies
• Articles - Struggling Women - Pure Life Ministries
• For the Love of a Woman – Cleopatra, Sex and Power
• Jonalyn Grace Fincher: Lust- Alive and Well Among Women
• Jonalyn Grace Fincher: Lust- Alive and Well Among Women- Part II
• My Addiction to inappropriate content: One Christian Woman's Struggle | revelife

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Dont know how to help guys overcome lusting after us ; but I have a perf solution for women to overcome lusting, in my church at least- All men should come in naked! or well, in swimtrunks.

Don't know if I'd personally be ready for that one to go down---though, honestly, there are others who'd actually advocate it....if supporting things such as Christian Nudist colonies/groups and others trying to be natural as it was before the Fall of Man. I wouldn't suggest it....

And yet, its interesting to consider how much of the subject of lust may be a mindset more than a body issue. For people in places of the world where the women walk around with no shirts on and they consider it a "lust" problem for men to stare at their LEGS rather than at their breasts (which they have open to see), its interesting how lust is defined differently. The same goes for something that shocked me when it came to Jewish culture and seeing how boys/girls shower together in groups at the Kibbutz---and its not seen as an issue. For more on that issue, one can go to the following:

• Israel: Social Structure and Change - Google Books Result
• Culture and human nature - Google Books Result
• SEXUAL STANDARDS AND BEHAVIOR OF THE KIBBUTZ ADOLESCENT

Its a very interesting subject to explore in-depth.....and there was discussion elsewhere, as it concerns what the scriptures have to say on the issue of nudity/its expressions

 

[visionary]

Vis, you brought up the dancing at the bottom of Har Sinai with the Golden Calf - would you group that dancing with that of Miriam and the women at The Sea of Reeds or anywhere else, or David and the others dancing?

Easy, thanks for those posts. You said it better than I could even muster to try.

That is it... all from the motives of the right and wrong thinking.. but both came from the heart..

 

[visionary]

Don't know if I'd personally be ready for that one to go down---though, honestly, there are others who'd actually advocate it....if supporting things such as Christian Nudist colonies/groups and others trying to be natural as it was before the Fall of Man. I wouldn't suggest it....

It clearly show up in their eyes... We women recognise it in men and either encourage it or discourage it.. by our words and deeds.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As it concerns the subject of modesty, not suggesting anyone here has to do this at their own fellowships---but I know of others that feel that wearing burkas/coverings is an excellent means of promoting modesty in mixed settings. And though I used to be against it, I must say that I think its rather beautiful to see in action in many places. Eastern culture is very beautiful in that regards.....and some of that was discussed elsewhere, as seen here. Though many assume that wearing veils---be it partial or full (entire body coverings)---is something that shouldn't be done, I think there's something to it that many may miss. Saw one family this mornining when driving to a meeting and the women had a full body covering like what often occurs in Muslim families....and I respected the fact that it seemed they were being conscious in their actions behind it.


Some even do so for fashion..and in media, the way that many of the women with veils have been portrayed have been very beautiful. One of favorite movies of all time, called "Hildago", is on how an American Indian cowboy and his mustang are placed against the world's greatest Arabian horses and Bedouin riders, some of whom are determined to prevent a foreigner - and especially an "impure" horse - from finishing the race. In Arabia where the race occurs, one of the main characters who helps the cowboy out is the sheikh's daughter, Jazira. One thing thing refreshing about the portrayal of Arabs in this movie is Jazeera's strong rebellious character, as she stands up for what she believes is right and argues with her father when she has to..and yet she takes seriously her appearance/the way she carries herself around others. I was always floored seeing how she dressed and how stunning she was.

For more, a clip from the full movie one can see online:

Hidalgo (2004) Part 3 of 13 ​

Of course, it is a hot-button issue---as many feel that the veils are oppressive....and for some good videos on such:

Why Muslim Women Wear Veils​

The Veil as Resistance: Muslim Women and Social Change​

Sadly, many feel that veils and headcoverings are somehow "oppressive" ...but in many of the churches I've seen/been to, including Jewish circles I've seen, head coverings are very beautiful to behold......and for many, the issue of wearing a veil is more than appropriate since it is an issue of modesty and preventing others from not respecting the glory that a woman possesses. Also, any may not be aware of how Paul also discussed in I Corinthians 11..specifically, 1 Corinthians 11:1-3 and 1 Corinthians 11:14-16 / 1 Corinthians 11 . The explicit purpose of the Christian woman's headcovering, as stated by Paul, is that it is a sign of man's authority over woman. ..


For a good review on the issue, one can go online/look up the following articles:

• The Veil in Christianity
• About Head Covering (Messianic Judaism)
• Your thoughts on headcoverings? UPDATED -The Anchoress
• Should Christian Women Wear Head Coverings Today? A Brief ...
• Christian magazine | Why Do Muslim Women's Dress Like That ...
• Between the Pages: The Veil of Submission, the Crown and The Women ...
• Should a Christian Woman Wear a HEADCOVERING? - NCCG.ORG (Messianic Evangelicals

As one of the articles said best:

The benefits of covering are several. A Muslim female forces folks to deal with her on a individual-to-individual degree. She is acknowledged for her skills, intellect and character only, not as “fat”, “beautiful” or “a red-head”. She maintains dignity at a time when ladies are consistently getting treated in a sexually degrading manner- she is not sexually harassed or date raped. A Muslim lady retains the respect and reverence that Western girls gave up when they began to mistakenly associate lack of modesty with equality and freedom. Muslim females also retain a healthful system image- young Muslim girls don’t undergo from anorexia or bulimia, devote a great number of hrs on manipulative “elegance magazines” or a great number of dollars feeding a piranha-like elegance marketplace in an hard work to acquire the acceptance of a society that values youth and intercourse and unattainable perfection.
​

Concerning veils for those who are believers, it is interesting to see others who feel that all all Hebrew women wore veils. In passages like Isaiah 47:1-3 where God pronounces judgment, He likens a wicked nation to a woman and speaks of “removing the veil” as an act of judgment and humiliation. Such language would make no sense unless the women in Isaiah’s audience wore head coverings routinely. Genesis 24:64-66 /Genesis 24 seems to speak to this, concerning Rebekah and how Issac found here when it came to her veil that she wore....and Genesis 29 seems to be another passage that seems to speak on the issue when it comes to Veiling Customs. Jacob’s failure to know the difference between Rachel and Leah on his wedding night (Gen. 29:21-30) has sometimes been ascribed either to his never having seen her face before or to a custom of veiling brides. Of course, the text shows that it was precisely for Rachel’s good looks that Jacob loved her (29:17). Nevertheless, it is possible that his failure to recognize Leah was the result of a veil, which she wore throughout the wedding night..


Genesis 38:13-15 mentions veils as well, though that seems to be in the sense of how prostitutes dressed...

SONG also mentions veils in terms of a relationship developing and the woman being concealed from her lover until there is progression, from courtship to the wedding night:

Song of Solomon 1:7
Tell me, you whom I love, where you graze your flock and where you rest your sheep at midday. Why should I be like a veiled woman beside the flocks of your friends?
Song of Solomon 1:6-8

Song of Solomon 4:1
He How beautiful you are, my darling! Oh, how beautiful! Your eyes behind your veil are doves. Your hair is like a flock of goats descending from the hills of Gilead.

Song of Solomon 4:3
Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon; your mouth is lovely. Your temples behind your veil are like the halves of a pomegranate.

Song of Solomon 6:7
Your temples behind your veil are like the halves of a pomegranate.


​

And in Eastern culture, it seems veils is something that's very much a big deal.


Of course.....there are others who are believers in Messiah and feel that wearing of veils/coverings is nott necessarily in regards to somethiong one has to wear in the sense of external clothing. As another said best from the ministry of Ichthys in their article entitled Are women required to wear hats or veils in church?:

In my view, the 1st Corinthians 11 passage (the one responsible for "hats in church") has been widely misunderstood. Women are not required by the Bible to wear hats (or veils). It should be remembered that in this epistle, Paul is addressing many abuses on the part of the Corinthian church ("being baptized for the dead" for example: 15:29; cf. also abuses at the Lord's supper: 11:17-34; abuse of gifts: 12-14; marriage abuses: chapter 7; as well as correcting them on the topics of divisiveness, failure to judge immorality, going to law before unbelievers, etc.). This passage in chapter eleven is addressing another such abuse, namely, the following of the Greek custom of disheveling the hair and marring the appearance when in mourning (something often done in pagan rites of ritual mourning as well - clearly an abomination: cf. Ezek.8:14-15). I have treated this passage in some detail in part 3 of the Satanic rebellion series, and here is the translation I give there:

Any man praying or prophesying with [hair] hanging down from his head dishonors his Head (i.e., Christ: cf. v.3). And any woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered (i.e., hair torn and unkempt as a sign of mourning) dishonors her head (i.e., husband: cf. v.3). For then she is one and the same with her who has been shaved [as a sign of disgrace]. So if a woman is not keeping her hair in good order [through styling, pinning, braiding, etc.], let her be shorn. And if it is a shameful thing for a woman to be shorn or shaved [and it is], then let her wear her hair properly arranged. For a man ought not to wear adorned hair [an effeminate mark of submission] since he is the image and glory of God. A woman, on the other hand, is the glory of her husband. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. Moreover, man was not created because of woman, but woman because of man. For this reason, a woman ought to have a sign of [respect for] authority on her head (i.e., properly arranged hair) because of the angels. However, in the Lord, woman does not [have priority] over man, nor does man [have priority] over woman. For just as women are begotten by men, so men are birthed by women. But everything comes from God.

1st Corinthians 11:5-12
​

In the verses which follow (1Cor.11:13-16), the issue is entirely one hair, making it clear that hair, not hats or veils, is what Paul has been talking about all along (cf. v.15 "for long hair has been given to her for a covering"). So deliberately and obviously mussed, or torn, or disheveled hair is, in effect, a sign of rebellion against proper authority and a mark of disrespect on a woman's part as Paul shows us above. No wearing of hats (or veils) is necessary to avoid the stricture given here, nor any elaborate hair-styling (for the other extreme see: 1Tim.2:9-10; 1Pet.3:3-5), rather only the avoidance of inappropriate displays by means of the hair. It is also important to note that in this last verse above Paul also hastens to make clear that we are all equal in the Lord, even though we have specific roles to play in this life
​

It'd be interesting to see dancing in services go down with others being covered in such fashions, though I'd love to see it at some point.

 

[visionary]

Misty veils and flowing robes.. romantic.. and mysterious,, drawing attention.. like a dance of the seven veils..

Burka on the other hand is dark.. and men still kill the women wearing them for driving them to lust.. go figure.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It clearly show up in their eyes... We women recognise it in men and either encourage it or discourage it.. by our words and deeds.

I'd say it goes both ways, with men also seeing it in the eyes of women

 

[visionary]

I'd say it goes both ways, with men also seeing it in the eyes of women

True..

 

[Temptinfates]

Satire on:
Nothing turns me on more than a woman dressed in Burlap. lol
Satire off.

 

[visionary]

Do without for a while. ... and then we will set you down in a sea of burlap clad women.. and see if it turns you on..

 

[Temptinfates]

Oh my. that be funny. Hope that day never comes.

My wife does cover her head when she prays, and it is very respectable. Some of those photos above are beautiful, btw.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Misty veils and flowing robes.. romantic.. and mysterious,, drawing attention.. like a dance of the seven veils..

.

Indeed....and its very beautiful to behold..

As often as it seems people trip about women wearing veils in services, its more than Biblical.

As said best here at Veils: Manners & Customs - Bible History Links (Ancient Biblical ...:

The veil was the distinctive female wearing apparel. All females, with the exception of maidservants and women in a low condition of life, wore a veil. They would usually never lay it aside, except when they were in the presence of servants, or on rare occasions. This custom has prevailed among the Eastern women down to the modern era. When traveling, women may throw the veil over the back part of their head, but if they see a man approaching, they place it back in its original position. Thus Rebekah, when she saw Isaac approaching her camel caravan, covered her face with her veil (Genesis 24:64, 65). When women are at home they do not speak to a guest without being veiled and in the presence of maids. They do not enter the guest's chamber, but rather, standing at the door, they make it known to the servant what is wanted (See II Kings 4:12, 13). It is well to remember that prostitutes went unveiled. Today, as in olden times, virgins and married women may be seen wearing veils in Bible lands. The old customs are not being observed strictly by some Moslem women, for they are now going unveiled. Although it was the custom for women to wear a veil entirely covering their head, when they were in public, this custom was not always strictly enforced among the Hebrew women. They were allowed more liberty than the Arab women are allowed today. The Egyptians saw Sarah's face (Genesis 12:14). While Hannah was praying, Eli "marked her mouth" (I Samuel 1:12). When a woman kept her veil down, it was forbidden for anyone to lift it, but she was free to do so if she chose. JESUS said, "Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). All these Scriptures indicate that women sometimes exposed their faces to view. Young girls were more apt to be veiled than a married women
​

Additionally, as another mentioned on the issue:

Wearing veils is part of ancient attire, and I think even people who don't believe in the Bible would agree to that.

In Genesis chapter 24 we see that Rebekah veils herself when she first sees Isaac who seeks to marry her. I think here it was a modesty thing because it says Rebekah lifted her eyes when she saw Isaac and asked his servant "who is this man walking in the field to meet us?" and the servant said, "It is my master." So she took a veil and covered herself. In Genesis chapter 29 Leah is given to Jacob as a wife when he really wanted Rachel. Leah's father sends Leah into Jacob for sex and he didn't know it was Leah but thought it was Rachel so she probably was veiled to hide her identity. Of course he saw who she was after the fact and he was angry. Then we see that the veil is used to conceal identity again in Genesis chapter 38 when Tamar veils herself
​

Burka on the other hand is dark.. and men still kill the women wearing them for driving them to lust.. go figure

Men kill women regardless of what they wear, in a myriad of scenarios--be it seeing women in how they're portrayed in inappropriate contentagraphy and trying to "live out" what they see, to the point where lust becomes rape...or trying to kill women when they're modest and still trying to see them as objects.


Where there's lust, women will always be harmed regardless of the attire..be it spiritually or physically. And the same goes for when women lust after men/damage them.

And on the subject of Burkas, believers have been in support of wearing them as well in services.

Additionally, burkas are also colorful and many do enjoy wearing them. Even though darker colors are considered very beautiful for many, its amazing to see the many times bright colors are on display. For a great site on the issue, as it concerns burkas done as fashion, one can go here. Of course, in some places, others have experienced persecution for wearing colorful clothing..as seen here...but in many places, its becoming something that people celebrate.

As it stands, its interesting to see how they now even have Burkas for Barbie, concerning kids who have the same mindset as the adults when it comes to fashion/not showing skin....and for the children/girls who love dressing up dolls, now they have another style that they can practice in. Amazing to see how many were offended by the doll being made---as many feel the dolls are somehow another sign of the "oppression of women"-----and yet, I don't see anyone dealing with the fact that its actually FAR more modest than many of the other barbie dolls made by others where it looks like one's seeing "Victoria's Secret" advertisements.


For some good articles on the issue, one can go to the following:

• Barbie in a burka | The Sun |News
• Burqa Barbie - Fox News Video - FoxNews.com
• Charity Cases: "Burka Barbie" Angers Everybody
• Burka Barbie to raise funds for Save the Children - CSMonitor.com

Honestly, I don't see the reasons why others choose to get into such an outrage on the issue....as the styles of burkas are indeed beautiful...but it does give an entirely differing spin on the subject of modesty in services. For if dancing occurred in a Messianic Fellowship and someone had on a burka, would they be allowed to dance in freedom/without fear---or would someone take issue with them just as much as they would on issues of women being immodest?