Before the 'fall'

[Gettothepoint]

If God really did create the world, why is there so much cruelty, death and killing in nature?

 

[drich0150]

Why do you believe death to be a bad thing?

Do you fear death?

 

[Buzzy]

This is Satan's world and as a Child of God I'm just here for a short time before I go home to the Kingdom of God.

 

[dewba]

Why do you believe death to be a bad thing?

Do you fear death?

I see what you're saying but before the Fall, there was no death. death was created as a punishment

 

[dewba]

This is Satan's world and as a Child of God I'm just here for a short time before I go home to the Kingdom of God.

Why do you think that this is Satan's world? God created the heavens and the earth...

 

[dewba]

Gttp:

Genesis 1:3
Passage: Genesis 1-3 (ESV Bible Online)

Before the Fall, there was peace, in God's creation. Adam and Eve disobeyed, despite the perfect, peaceful world they lived in. God told them that they would not have to worry about anything as long as they obeyed. The "cruelty, death, and killing," as you put it, was the Disciplinary Action.

 

[Brenda Morgan]

This is Satan's world and as a Child of God I'm just here for a short time before I go home to the Kingdom of God.

Take your time dying. The Kingdom hasn't been established yet.

 

[Brenda Morgan]

Gttp:

Genesis 1:3
Passage: Genesis 1-3 (ESV Bible Online)

Before the Fall, there was peace, in God's creation. Adam and Eve disobeyed, despite the perfect, peaceful world they lived in. God told them that they would not have to worry about anything as long as they obeyed. The "cruelty, death, and killing," as you put it, was the Disciplinary Action.

Before the "fall", Adam and Eve weren't even smart enough to know they were naked. Animals don't know they are naked.
Adam and Eve didn't start thinking until their eyes were opened by the fruit. Human progress started with the fall. After the fall Adam started planting and farming. This was the birth of science.
God knew all along that this was going to happen and IMO God was pleased that man was going off on his own way. It's how a mother feels when her children graduate, get a job, and move out into their own apartment.

 

[ForceofTime]

Why do you think that this is Satan's world? God created the heavens and the earth...

Hi Dewba,

these are just from John:

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

also note:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Assyrian]

If God really did create the world, why is there so much cruelty, death and killing in nature?

Because love, courage, justice, grace and faithfulness would all be meaningless sentimentality in a world where they would never come at a cost. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

 

[Galvanized]

Before the "fall", Adam and Eve weren't even smart enough to know they were naked. Animals don't know they are naked.
Adam and Eve didn't start thinking until their eyes were opened by the fruit. Human progress started with the fall. After the fall Adam started planting and farming. This was the birth of science.
God knew all along that this was going to happen and IMO God was pleased that man was going off on his own way. It's how a mother feels when her children graduate, get a job, and move out into their own apartment.

Have you read the Bible? This is so idiotic I can't think that you have. The Tree is called the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil", not the "tree of knowledge". What happened next was the penalty of death, and from now on their lives were to be difficult, they could only get their food with much difficulty, and even child-birth would now be incredibly painful. They had corrupted themselves, brought on themselves eventual death, and after the great flood all of their "achievements" were wiped out all at once anyway. Only Noah and his immediate family were left to recreate civilization. Why would God think of it as "good" that His children would disobey Him in something that was utterly simple, and then go on to die, suffer, murder each other, from there on forward, as a result of their actions? Certainly He knew it would happen, but He created us anyway and allowed us to make those choices. In the end, the world will be destroyed and remade, and those who accepted Christ as savior will be restored to our former peace and glory. All of "science", our monuments, our buildings, our great leaders, and our paintings, will be wiped out.

 

[elopez]

If God really did create the world, why is there so much cruelty, death and killing in nature?

Nature is unconcerned with morality. That is why. Nature is 'cruel' only because we who understand morality give it the name of 'cruelty.'

The only way I can relate your question to the title of this thread is meant by asking if death was present before the Fall? Human death was not present. Animal and other biological life did experience death, however.

 

[Gettothepoint]

But dewba, if there was no death before 'the fall' what happened when a large animal stood on a small insect and squashed it? How did it not die?

 

[Galvanized]

But dewba, if there was no death before 'the fall' what happened when a large animal stood on a small insect and squashed it? How did it not die?

I don't know. How is it when a big dumb question steps on a small good question, how did the good question not get squished?

 

[Dark_Lite]

If God really did create the world, why is there so much cruelty, death and killing in nature?

It's always been that way. The world was created very good, not perfect. Life that manages to stay around for 4+ billion years is pretty good, don't you think?

The Fall refers to a primeval event in which man turned his back on God, and the death that entered the world was spiritual. Adam and Eve still lived after God said "you shall surely die," and they were eating food before that. So even before the Fall, there is death (of plants) and survival (of people). I'm not sure how creationists distill a vegetarian utopia out of that.

Death and disease are not inherently bad. It's how the world works and how it keeps itself in check. Now, as humans, we have a special obligation to life, because man is created in the image of God and each life is sacred from beginning to end. That means we work to cure diseases and eradicate them.

This is a very brief summary of my position. I described it in a lot more detail somewhere else, but I can't find the post...

 

[Brenda Morgan]

Have you read the Bible? This is so idiotic I can't think that you have. The Tree is called the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil", not the "tree of knowledge". What happened next was the penalty of death, and from now on their lives were to be difficult, they could only get their food with much difficulty, and even child-birth would now be incredibly painful. They had corrupted themselves, brought on themselves eventual death, and after the great flood all of their "achievements" were wiped out all at once anyway. Only Noah and his immediate family were left to recreate civilization. Why would God think of it as "good" that His children would disobey Him in something that was utterly simple, and then go on to die, suffer, murder each other, from there on forward, as a result of their actions? Certainly He knew it would happen, but He created us anyway and allowed us to make those choices. In the end, the world will be destroyed and remade, and those who accepted Christ as savior will be restored to our former peace and glory. All of "science", our monuments, our buildings, our great leaders, and our paintings, will be wiped out.

I think adversity makes people stronger. If someone puts out a bowl of food on the floor for you everyday you will spend the rest of your life waiting for that bowl so you can curl up on the floor and eat your food. But if getting food is difficult man's ingenuity will find better and better ways to get food. That's science.

I know some of you look forward to a heavenly existence curled up at the feet of Jesus. He will probably put out that bowl of food for you. I suppose you will probably be naked also. Probably neutered also.[Matthew 22:30, Matthew19:12]

I look forward to inheriting the promised land. Planting, building, having children and living forever.

 

[Brenda Morgan]

Nature is unconcerned with morality. That is why. Nature is 'cruel' only because we who understand morality give it the name of 'cruelty.'

The only way I can relate your question to the title of this thread is meant by asking if death was present before the Fall? Human death was not present. Animal and other biological life did experience death, however.

Do you have Scripture to back up that opinion?

 

[Brenda Morgan]

It's always been that way. The world was created very good, not perfect. Life that manages to stay around for 4+ billion years is pretty good, don't you think?

The Fall refers to a primeval event in which man turned his back on God, and the death that entered the world was spiritual. Adam and Eve still lived after God said "you shall surely die," and they were eating food before that. So even before the Fall, there is death (of plants) and survival (of people). I'm not sure how creationists distill a vegetarian utopia out of that.

Death and disease are not inherently bad. It's how the world works and how it keeps itself in check. Now, as humans, we have a special obligation to life, because man is created in the image of God and each life is sacred from beginning to end. That means we work to cure diseases and eradicate them.

This is a very brief summary of my position. I described it in a lot more detail somewhere else, but I can't find the post...

Where in the Bible are the verses that teach spiritual death?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return. Genesis 3:19

So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. Genesis 5:5

 

[Dark_Lite]

Where in the Bible are the verses that teach spiritual death?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return. Genesis 3:19

So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. Genesis 5:5

This is not a debate forum. If you want to debate, start a thread somewhere else (like Origins Theology). But if you read my post more carefully, you'll see the argument. Spiritual death is the only logical conclusion left:

1. The world was not created perfect.
2. The world was created "very good."
3. Adam and Eve had to eat.
4. Eating kills plants.
5. Eating is required for survival.

Physical death and the necessity of survival before the Fall. Simple.

 

[elopez]

Do you have Scripture to back up that opinion?

Scripture is unnecessary to know that nature and animals do not pertain to morality, even if I could find a verse or two. We don't have to appeal to the Bible to know everything about the natural world.