Before the angels fell...

[bhar]

The whole idea of 1/3rd of the angels falling and rebelling (assuming it's true) prompts a few logical questions:
1. If the angels existed in perfection, with the free will to obey or
disobey God...then cannot any resident of heaven, current or
future also fall from heaven?;
2. Heaven implies a timeless existence. For the "bad angels" to fall
there would have to be a point at which things were "ok", and then
afterward another point at which things were "not ok", hence the
passage of time, which is a contradiction of timeless heaven;
3. If 1/3rd of angels chose to disobey God, how is that worthy of
damnation, the lake of fire, turning from "angel" to "demon?" God
never changes and says sinners will be forgiven. Why are the
demons not forgiven?
4. Is there something about existence with God "in heaven" that is
inherintly distasteful and uncomfortable, hence causing a soul
to not want to be in heaven?

Replies invited

 

[rogueapologist]

The whole idea of 1/3rd of the angels falling and rebelling (assuming it's true) prompts a few logical questions:
1. If the angels existed in perfection, with the free will to obey or
disobey God...then cannot any resident of heaven, current or
future also fall from heaven?;
2. Heaven implies a timeless existence. For the "bad angels" to fall
there would have to be a point at which things were "ok", and then
afterward another point at which things were "not ok", hence the
passage of time, which is a contradiction of timeless heaven;
3. If 1/3rd of angels chose to disobey God, how is that worthy of
damnation, the lake of fire, turning from "angel" to "demon?" God
never changes and says sinners will be forgiven. Why are the
demons not forgiven?
4. Is there something about existence with God "in heaven" that is
inherintly distasteful and uncomfortable, hence causing a soul
to not want to be in heaven?

Replies invited

Good questions-I've thought similar ones before. I think, ultimately, the story has to be taken with a grain of salt. Is this reselling history, or using a narrative to express a theological point?

 

[Knee V]

God is uncreated, while the angels are created. God has no beginning, while the angels have a beginning. God is the only one who is "eternal" and beyond any sense of time. Whether or not their sense of "time" is the same as ours, the fact that they are created and have a point of origin limits how "timeless" they can be.

Have any demons ever repented? Will they even give God a chance to be merciful to them and forgive them? That I doubt.

 

[Kormagh]

The fallen angels don't have a savior.

Sent from my dumb smart phone using CF

 

[rogueapologist]

God is uncreated, while the angels are created. God has no beginning, while the angels have a beginning. God is the only one who is "eternal" and beyond any sense of time. Whether or not their sense of "time" is the same as ours, the fact that they are created and have a point of origin limits how "timeless" they can be.

Have any demons ever repented? Will they even give God a chance to be merciful to them and forgive them? That I doubt.

If they have a point of origin, AND God created them, WHEN exactly did God create them? I don't think one need assume a fracturing of timelessness simply by positing that something is created.

 

[Kormagh]

If they have a point of origin, AND God created them, WHEN exactly did God create them? I don't think one need assume a fracturing of timelessness simply by positing that something is created.

The Bible does not say when the angels were created. But all things seen and unseen are made by God.

Sent from my dumb smart phone using CF

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If they have a point of origin, AND God created them, WHEN exactly did God create them? I don't think one need assume a fracturing of timelessness simply by positing that something is created.

It does seem that angels were made before the creation of the world:

Job 38:6-8 /Job 38
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone —
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,

​

 

[Leggomyegolas]

Because God doesn't love angels. The Bible says repeatedly how much God loves humans, but never once does it mention Him loving any other part of His creation, including angels. He calls the creation "good," before the fall, but that's the closest it comes.

 

[thesunisout]

The whole idea of 1/3rd of the angels falling and rebelling (assuming it's true) prompts a few logical questions:
1. If the angels existed in perfection, with the free will to obey or
disobey God...then cannot any resident of heaven, current or
future also fall from heaven?;
2. Heaven implies a timeless existence. For the "bad angels" to fall
there would have to be a point at which things were "ok", and then
afterward another point at which things were "not ok", hence the
passage of time, which is a contradiction of timeless heaven;
3. If 1/3rd of angels chose to disobey God, how is that worthy of
damnation, the lake of fire, turning from "angel" to "demon?" God
never changes and says sinners will be forgiven. Why are the
demons not forgiven?
4. Is there something about existence with God "in heaven" that is
inherintly distasteful and uncomfortable, hence causing a soul
to not want to be in heaven?

Replies invited

1. Revelation says the former things (pain, suffering, crying) will have passed away. It also says in 21:27 regarding the New Jerusalem

Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life

So, it looks like there will be no sin in Heaven. You could look at it a couple of ways. One, that we will be in such an elevated state of existence that sin will be outmoded. Or two, that God only selected those who He knew would never sin in Heaven, and although we still have the free will opportunity to sin, no one who gets to Heaven will ever choose to do it. I'm sure there are other solutions.

2. God entered into time as the Lord Jesus Christ, so it's a convoluted issue. What I assume is that there is a "now", and that God is interacting with everything in "real time". Gods eternal nature is what allows Him to be doing everything at the same time, all at once, because He is not limited by time. Also I don't think it says that Heaven is timeless in any case.

3. You can't really compare the angels situation to humans. For one, they were created differently. For instance, this is said about Satan:

Ezekiel 28:12

"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

He was "full" of wisdom, meaning he didn't lack any wisdom. He was called perfect. Adam and Eve on the other hand were created innocent, not even knowing they were naked. The angels therefore seemed to be created with an advantage of knowledge and perfection of attributes. They serve God face to face and fully experience His glory and awesome majesty. That they betrayed God in such a situation seems a lot worse than Adam and Eve getting tricked by Satan to eat the fruit. Satan didn't get tricked by anyone, also. He created sin in his lust for Gods power.

4. No, I don't think so. Scripture seems to indicate it was a lust for Gods power that led to the rebellion. Satan started to believe that he was something special and was worthy of worship like God was.

Isaiah 14:12-15

How you have fallen from heaven,O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.c
http://bible.cc/isaiah/14-14.htmI will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

 

[dysert]

The whole idea of 1/3rd of the angels falling and rebelling (assuming it's true) prompts a few logical questions:

I believe it's true, so my answers are based on that truth...

1. If the angels existed in perfection, with the free will to obey or
disobey God...then cannot any resident of heaven, current or
future also fall from heaven?;

I believe that there comes a point in time where a human's choice is sealed, i.e., when their decision to accept or reject Christ is set for eternity. This point in time is when the person dies. (Once you're dead you can't change your mind.) I think the same was true for angels. They existed for a while, and then there came a point in time when they had to decide whether to be with God or against Him, and after that point their decision was sealed. They can no longer change their mind.

2. Heaven implies a timeless existence. For the "bad angels" to fall
there would have to be a point at which things were "ok", and then
afterward another point at which things were "not ok", hence the
passage of time, which is a contradiction of timeless heaven;

I disagree that heaven implies a timeless existence. Heaven is an "abode" (may be a place; may be a different dimension). God's glory is manifest in heaven; the good angels are in heaven. But they are created beings, so the fact that they are there doesn't contradict anything. Only God is timeless.

3. If 1/3rd of angels chose to disobey God, how is that worthy of
damnation, the lake of fire, turning from "angel" to "demon?" God
never changes and says sinners will be forgiven. Why are the
demons not forgiven?

Demons were not made in the image of God, and God didn't become an angel for substituionary atonement. God *did*, though create man in His image and God *did* become a man to atone for our sins. Also, mankind is a race inasmuch as He created one man and one woman, and all the rest of us descended from them. Angels, however, were created individually and didn't reproduce other angels. Jesus came to redeem mankind by becoming the Second Adam. He did not become the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ..., nth angel to redeem them.

4. Is there something about existence with God "in heaven" that is
inherintly distasteful and uncomfortable, hence causing a soul
to not want to be in heaven?

No. The fallen angels fell because they wanted to take God's place. It was Lucifer's (Satan's) pride and lust for power that brought him down, and a third of the other angels who followed him. (See Isa. 14:14-15.)

 

[Rev Randy]

I've found no passage where angles have a living soul so salvation would be a mute point for them. It is written that Lucifer was the most beautiful of angles and that his voice was wonderful. The light bearer in heaven was of a surity one of the highest honors.
While I have no direct scripture I have a therory that comes from reading scripture. God not only made man but walked and talked with him daily. Perhaps it was coveteous of mans relationship with God that caused this as sometime after Mans creation the old serpent showed up and began decieving. Also a coveteous of God Himself as Satan so desires to be as God even to the point of imitating God in his deceptions. No facts here just thoughts.

 

[AHJE]

Dear bhar,

Peace be with you,

YOU WROTE:

The whole idea of 1/3rd of the angels falling and rebelling (assuming it's true) prompts a few logical questions:
1. If the angels existed in perfection, with the free will to obey or
disobey God...then cannot any resident of heaven, current or
future also fall from heaven?;

No, ... since they are confirmed in holiness. To see God is to sin no more. The Beatific Vision of God is the most attractive experience imaginable. It is unfathomable, and it is granted unto those who are confirmed in holiness.

2. Heaven implies a timeless existence. For the "bad angels" to fall
there would have to be a point at which things were "ok", and then
afterward another point at which things were "not ok", hence the
passage of time, which is a contradiction of timeless heaven;

Eternity is indeed timeless ... but there was a period of trial for all of the angels where God tested their loyalty. Maybe it did not take place in time as WE know it but there were instances, if you will, where these things took place. There were instances when the angels did not have a full vision of the Triune God and when they were given the opportunity to prove their loyalty to the Most High.

3. If 1/3rd of angels chose to disobey God, how is that worthy of
damnation, the lake of fire, turning from "angel" to "demon?" God
never changes and says sinners will be forgiven. Why are the
demons not forgiven?

God has refused to show them mercy. Angels are pure spirits, ... intellectual creatures. When they decide they do not do so in the flesh ... when they decide that decision is with all the light that they have as angels (which makes it all the more malicious). The angels dwarf us human beings in the natural order when it comes to the intellect. They dwarf us.

4. Is there something about existence with God "in heaven" that is
inherintly distasteful and uncomfortable, hence causing a soul
to not want to be in heaven?

Replies invited

Only a very deceived soul would feel distaste or discomfort at the thought of existence with God in Heaven. That is kind of like saying that the body feels distaste or discomfort with breathing oxygen. If that sounds foolish to your lungs how foolish do you think that it is for the soul to be without God?

God bless you.

 

[rogueapologist]

Only a very deceived soul would feel distaste or discomfort at the thought of existence with God in Heaven. That is kind of like saying that the body feels distaste or discomfort with breathing oxygen. If that sounds foolish to your lungs how foolish do you think that it is for the soul to be without God?

But that's the question, isn't it? If they dwell in the perfect presences of holy God (in which there is only truth), how were they deceived, and who deceived them?

 

[AHJE]

But that's the question, isn't it? If they dwell in the perfect presences of holy God (in which there is only truth), how were they deceived, and who deceived them?

I'll tell you what I believe based on some very important things which I have read.

lucifer being the brightest and most beautiful angel became enamored of his own loveliness and manifold gifts ... that soon he began to think too highly of himself ... he began to see the law of God as something he had to do (because the opposite seemed impossible) ... so there he went on that road. As many gifts as he had, he began to desire and envy the unique gifts of the other angels, ... so envy began to set in.

At this point lucifer had not sinned ... though his predisposition became worse and worse. He was not ready for what was to come to pass. God (Who had not totally revealed Himself to them YET) ... as a test of loyalty showed them in advance something of the Mystery of the Incarnation, ... that God was to assume a Human Nature and that God was to be born of a young woman. And that they were to bow down to this God Incarnate in Worship and Adoration and not only that ... they were going to have to be subject to His Mother (for she was to be the Queen of Heaven).

Well, you could imagine what that the proud lucifer at that point had had it! There was no way that he, the brightest and most beautiful angel was going to worship a man! Not even the God-Man! And there was no way that he was going to be subject to a woman! He thought to himself, "If any one is going to be God its not going to be any man! It should be an angel!" So, at that point he began to envy the Divinity and said that he would be equal to God, or greater than God! So he said, "I will not serve."

So malicious was his sin, that many of the angels went along with him, and they made an act of rebellion in heaven, a third of the angels. They began to utter horrible blasphemies against the Incarnate God and His Holy Mother ... really bad stuff.

St. Michael raised his battle cry in defense of the Divine Majesty and said, "WHO IS LIKE GOD?!?" [That is literally what Mi-cha-El means]. And there was a war in Heaven, a battle of intellects ... and lucifer was thrown down into hell and all the rebellious spirits with him, and they became satan and the angels demonic.

So it went.

 

[thesunisout]

But that's the question, isn't it? If they dwell in the perfect presences of holy God (in which there is only truth), how were they deceived, and who deceived them?

This is what the word of God says:

Ezekiel 28

(this is God speaking through Ezekiel to Satan)

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.



14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.



15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.



16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.



17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.


18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.

19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’

It says that his "heart was lifted up because of his beauty" and his wisdom was corrupted because of his splendor. So his sin was pride and that is why he was cast out. Apparently it was possible for him to become prideful even in the presence of perfect love and truth. How that is possible I do not know, but that is what happened. I don't think he had a full revelation of the truth at the time, and perhaps that is what allowed the sin to come in. If he had a full revelation of the truth he would have realized that God knew about his sin and rebellion before he did, and could see his every thought. He probably vastly underestimated God because of the limited revelation he had received, and that was how God was testing him.

 

[enlightened1]

If they have a point of origin, AND God created them, WHEN exactly did God create them? I don't think one need assume a fracturing of timelessness simply by positing that something is created.

This is a good question you ask, especially since the creation of the 'angels' was never spoken of in all of GEN 1, and GEN 2:1 says all the hosts of the heavens and earth were finished being created. Since clearly the 'angels' were created, for Lucifer, the anointed cherub, was created on a certain day, why should GOD not tell us the complete truth about creation in GEN 1, even mentioning the creation of he who would become HIS Arch Enemy Satan? I tell you, GEN 1 is complete, but it has been interpreted wrong for some time. Read GEN 1:26-28, EZ 1:26-28, and 28:12-15, then ask yourself this question: what is the image of the LORD, and what did HIS Likeness appear as, both of which Adam was given also?

 

[elopez]

The whole idea of 1/3rd of the angels falling and rebelling (assuming it's true) prompts a few logical questions:

1. If the angels existed in perfection, with the free will to obey or
disobey God...then cannot any resident of heaven, current or
future also fall from heaven?

I am not sure that the Bible says angels were created perfect. Either way the beings that rebelled in Heaven were angels, not immortal souls from human beings. I always thought that difference would account for the issue of rebellion. Also, I personally think there is no free will in Heaven for immortal souls. Not to say we mindlessly follow God as our earthly free will wanted to genuinely follow Him, yet to say our will is "set in stone" in Heaven. We won't want anything but to experience God.

2. Heaven implies a timeless existence. For the "bad angels" to fall
there would have to be a point at which things were "ok", and then
afterward another point at which things were "not ok", hence the
passage of time, which is a contradiction of timeless heaven.

Heaven implies a timeless existence in the sense that there is no experience of time as we know it on earth there. That doesn't mean there is no sense of temporality, for it certainly seems as if there is. What I'm suggesting is that there is a 'time' in Heaven, just not an earthly time where we keep track of seconds and minutes as there would be no need in for that in eternity.

 

[enlightened1]

I do not subscribe to the interpretation of REV 12:4 that 1/3 of the angels 'fell'; rather, I believe this is referring to the fact that we all died spiritually in Adam the very moment he sinned (ate the forbidden fruit), because Adam was created body, soul and spirit, but caused all of us to be born dead to the spirit (1/3) because he died the death promised in the Commandment, which was a spiritual death.

 

[Messy]

3. If 1/3rd of angels chose to disobey God, how is that worthy of
damnation, the lake of fire, turning from "angel" to "demon?" God
never changes and says sinners will be forgiven. Why are the
demons not forgiven?

Because they can't be redeemed like humans and they're not mislead. They sinned themselves. They don't have a mortal body, they live (well, they are spiritually dead/ not in relation with the Father) eternal.

4. Is there something about existence with God "in heaven" that is
inherintly distasteful and uncomfortable, hence causing a soul
to not want to be in heaven?

No way, but there is holiness from God and Light in which your sins immediately become clear and some love the darkness more then the Light because of this.

 

[Messy]

But that's the question, isn't it? If they dwell in the perfect presences of holy God (in which there is only truth), how were they deceived, and who deceived them?

They deceived themselves or satan deceived them, I don't know, but he deceived himself and invented sin. The devil is darkness, which is absence of light.