becomming christian from intense fear

[akeng]

But the thing is the middle and lower class make up most of the population and most people are of average intellegence. The fact that the path is narrow means that a bulk of the meek and average people are not part of the narrow because the meek average middle and lower class are most people.

Another thought is that Jesus words transend through all of time so maybe alot of people are saved in our time (living now) but not alot were saved in past times (evil empires, etc). Even so in past times the meek still usually represented the majority of people.

Also I think heaven and hell are to radically different to use the analogy of rare and common. Common just means it is more frequent but it can still be benign. Also where in the bible does it say hell is for eternity? It says blasphemy of the holy spirt is the only thing that brings about eternal damnation mk 3:29, I have not read all of the scripture yet but am working on it.

I've thought about this a long time. And the only thing I can come up with is; what is valuable is rare. What is common is common. And heaven is definitely valuable, not common. So only a choice few can get there. But I do ask myself; "Why me?" Why little me who's no better than anyone else?"

God answers this in 1 Corinthians 1:26-29 "Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many of you were influential, not many of you were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things-and the things that are not to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him."

So God chose the obviously meek, lowly and despised things to show what His power can do to the weak. "Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses so Christ's power may rest on me."

 

[Emmy]

Dear akeng. To be a Christ-loving Christian, any fear or worry, will sooner than later turn into a loving relationship with our Lord. Fear might mistakenly being the reason, but the Love our Lord has for His own, will win the day, akeng. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

yeah, Emmy's on track here.
There's basicaly two emotions: love & fear.

 

[Nadiine]

"Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." One can't seek God if he has no fear of him.

Psalm 36:1-2, "There is an oracle in my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked; there is no fear of God before his eyes. For in his own eyes, he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his own sin."

So fear is the beginning of wisdom and also the beginning of seeking. Once you start seeking God's word, you will see that Jesus paid the price for cursing your mother and everything else you did. So God is who sets you free, provided you accept Christ's atonement for your sins.

Kids obey mom & dad's instructions that are based in fear
for life or health...
"don't cross the street without looking both ways becuz
you could get hit by a car".

Warning of danger is used by people all the time to get
people to do things properly or obey rules. It's real simple.
Love is great, but it's not always what motives everybody
equally.

Luke 12:4-6
4"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

 

[Rick Otto]

"Being hit by a car" is at least a little bit of an abstraction for a toddler.
In a situation where he is told to fear something he doesn't understand, his faith in the good intentions of his parent motivates him to fear what he doesn't comp[letely understand.

 

[Nadiine]

"Being hit by a car" is at least a little bit of an abstraction for a toddler.
In a situation where he is told to fear something he doesn't understand, his faith in the good intentions of his parent motivates him to fear what he doesn't comp[letely understand.

You get the point tho, right Rick? =)

How about threats - 'go brush your teeth or you won't get a
popsickle tomorrow'. Off they go to brush.

Whatever you want to use, the principle is there - even to
adults. "if you skip work tomorrow, you'll be fired".
You go to work.
We all have fears and all get warnings - "if you drive 75 in a
45 mph zone, you'll get fined". You drive around 45mph.
You stop at stop signs when you don't want to, etc.

It's just a fact of our everyday life and we respond to that

 

[Rick Otto]

Sure, but my point is that motivations can be mixed and not always simple to discern.
All those fears might be responded to, but that is just the surface of the situations you describe.
Fear needn't be the motivation.
Like your teeth? Brush 'em. They like to be taken care of. Notice how your teeth feel like they have little sweaters on? The brush takes the sweaters off so they clean sleep better in your mouth at night.

Get my Point, Nadine?
Fear is necessary, but isn't as necessary as we might like to think.

 

[akeng]

I would disagree with this, fear is pretty prevalent in the bible, its near impossible to get through any one book of the bible without fear (other than maybe song of soloman). The new testimate does not say its a good idea, it says if you dont believe and repent your going to hell, all of us die at some time or another so I see this as the prime motivation in the bible. The bible does talk alot about love but the mention of fear is not to many verses away. I used to believe the bible chruch, God was loving and benevolant until I really started to STUDY the bible, now its hard to feel that love because it seems like every other verse is wroght with fear, especially romans where it seems to imply that if you are saved and sin again there is nothing left to save you.

Sure, but my point is that motivations can be mixed and not always simple to discern.
All those fears might be responded to, but that is just the surface of the situations you describe.
Fear needn't be the motivation.
Like your teeth? Brush 'em. They like to be taken care of. Notice how your teeth feel like they have little sweaters on? The brush takes the sweaters off so they clean sleep better in your mouth at night.

Get my Point, Nadine?
Fear is necessary, but isn't as necessary as we might like to think.

 

[Nadiine]

I would disagree with this, fear is pretty prevalent in the bible, its near impossible to get through any one book of the bible without fear (other than maybe song of soloman). The new testimate does not say its a good idea, it says if you dont believe and repent your going to hell, all of us die at some time or another so I see this as the prime motivation in the bible. The bible does talk alot about love but the mention of fear is not to many verses away. I used to believe the bible chruch, God was loving and benevolant until I really started to STUDY the bible, now its hard to feel that love because it seems like every other verse is wroght with fear, especially romans where it seems to imply that if you are saved and sin again there is nothing left to save you.

First off, this is why STUDY is key. Not just a topical reading in our
English understandings. Also, alot gets misinterpreted or misunderstood
becuz we aren't following context - or putting other important verses
togther with the ones we have concerns over.

The Bible shows us how far man is from God's ideals and perfection.
That is also the very reason God had to step in to provide righteousness
over people who would accept Him and turn from their evil nature.

They can't enter any other way. There is absolutely fear and
reasons to fear. The ones I worry about are the ones who have
NONE. When God's conviction and warnings have no impact,
they're in serious trouble.

 

[akeng]

I would agree with this, Once I have read through the bible anywhere I find something that is suspect I try to find places where someone has translated from the original language to try to understand if that is what is really ment. Another huge point of contention for me is divorce and remarriage, Jesus seems to force remarried people into a position of perpetual unrepentant sin if you continue in relations with your new spouse since he said you are committing adultry or is it that the divorce is a singular sin and you get remarried and your good. If it were in fact that remarriage was perpetual sinning would that not make that an unforgivable sin because in duet it says if you remarry you are not to go back to your original spouse otherwise that is an abomination and God never contradicts himself so I question why Jesus was so hardliner with what he said when it contradicted moses law, Jesus knew that was not Gods original plan but also man is not capable of following gods original plan perfectly so why would he say something so hardliner, is he simply stating that is Gods original plan but moses laws still hold true at least in regards to divorce?

First off, this is why STUDY is key. Not just a topical reading in our
English understandings. Also, alot gets misinterpreted or misunderstood
becuz we aren't following context - or putting other important verses
togther with the ones we have concerns over.

The Bible shows us how far man is from God's ideals and perfection.
That is also the very reason God had to step in to provide righteousness
over people who would accept Him and turn from their evil nature.

They can't enter any other way. There is absolutely fear and
reasons to fear. The ones I worry about are the ones who have
NONE. When God's conviction and warnings have no impact,
they're in serious trouble.

 

[preistsplace]

what about in the bible where it says lord lord we phrophisied in your name and yet he does not know them. Why would he say wide is the gate to hell if everyone should be saved and if it is so easy to become saved.

I guess it is hard to draw contrast since we dont know what others are thinking and what it is in there thinking and actions that put them on the wide path vs the narrow path since none of us are christ and all fall short. So it looking at it from a probalistic point of view it is very likely your kids could go to hell if the way to hell is so wide and the way to heavan is so narrow. Maybe I am misinturpreting something - in fact I hope I am misinturpreting something. Blessed are thoes children who die at birth because they dont have to deal with the potential of going to hell.

He does not say hell when referring to the narrow and wide paths. He says destruction..
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Destruction of what though.....Remember...
Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Mic 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
emphasis mine
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
God measures back to us what we measure out....Ever tryed to measure infinity?
r 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
If sinners are to be punished for eternity in Hell then it is reasonable to assume that God remains Angry with them...
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Is eternal suffering of the majority "glad tidings to all people"

 

[akeng]

wow that is very true. What exactly do you think destruction means then?

 

[preistsplace]

wow that is very true. What exactly do you think destruction means then?

Destrucion of the Phsical/flesh/sin leaving only the spirit
It is our choice to give up fleshly pleasures here and now or to keep following the same pathand be subjected to God's purifying in Gehenna
I recomend that you read Hope Beyond Hell it is available free at
http://hopoebeyondhell.net
there is also a bunch of interesting stuff @ Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Gospel of the Bible

 

[Nadiine]

if they all get to heaven at the end anyways, there's no reason
for them to change anything spiritually in this life.
sorry it's a false doctrine of hope that doesn't exist.
One MUST be covered by the blood of Christ before they
physically die. Being born again is no "option" before death.

 

[Nadiine]

He does not say hell when referring to the narrow and wide paths. He says destruction..
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Destruction of what though.....Remember...
Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Mic 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
emphasis mine
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
God measures back to us what we measure out....Ever tryed to measure infinity?
r 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
If sinners are to be punished for eternity in Hell then it is reasonable to assume that God remains Angry with them...
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Is eternal suffering of the majority "glad tidings to all people"

If you take a car to a wrecking lot and "destroy" it, it doesn't become
"non existant", it's still materially existant.
You can destroy anything and still have the remains left.

In the case of a spirit, it's not physical/material - the unseen is what's
ETERNAL. The material is what passes away.
2 Corinthians 4:18
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen;
for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

One last note, it's imperative to take the audience into context
in who is being referred to or spoken to specifically.
Many like to apply promises of God to the Saints [only] and
place them onto all the world as if its' including the lost as well.

This is also done alot with promises to Israel specifically where
the church likes to replace itself with Israel in the contexts.

We can't randomly take every verse that sounds like God restores
people and arbitrarily apply them in a Universal framework to
refer to salvation of man.
That's reading into scripture what we want it to say; creating our
own doctrines.

 

[Catherineanne]

Is salvation valid if your reasons for becomming a christian and right living are that of intense fear of going to hell. I always hear that its wrong to be motivated to follow christ for fear of hell but then why would he even create such a place if it was not to motivate us to not go there?

Like a parent spanking a kid into right behavior, in fact maybe God should send us to hell for a period of time when we willfully disobey him and maybe Joe would think twice about cooking the books at work after being burned alive for even 20 min and returned to his body. How many times would you cuss out your mom if you knew 20 min in hell was going to happen.

Any human relationship predicated upon fear is by definition a dysfunctional one.

I see no reason to believe that what is pathological in human relationships is healthy in relation to God. Therefore, basing our faith on fear is a non starter, imo.

Meanwhile, my denomination is clear that hell is about separation from God, and not about burning anywhere for eternity. I am very happy to say that I agree with this conclusion.

 

[Catherineanne]

But the passage wide is the road to hell and narrow is the path to heavan, that implys not many are going to heaven that is still a bothersome passage for me maybe I need to read through it more to understand the context.

Actually, it doesn't at all. The width of the path does not restrict the numbers travelling along it, only the number who enter at once.

Matthew 7:
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The whole of mankind can enter through the narrowest of gates, in single file. It is perfectly possible to see this as a comment on death; this is a path we each travel alone, without a companion. Therefore, the road is narrow. But we all go through along it, sooner or later.

Alternatively, it could be a comment on virtue; those who group together are likely to be going astray one way or another, but the man who chooses to walk alone is more likely to be walking the difficult path of rightousness. Nothing to do with heaven or hell, in other words, but more to do with personal choices and morality.

 

[Nadiine]

Actually, it doesn't at all. The width of the path does not restrict the numbers travelling along it, only the number who enter at once.


The whole of mankind can enter through the narrowest of gates, in single file. It is perfectly possible to see this as a comment on death; this is a path we each travel alone, without a companion. Therefore, the road is narrow. But we all go through along it, sooner or later.

This is some fancy maneuvering.
Now He only meant "it's everyone; they're just in single file"? hehe
If people interpreted everyday literature like what's being
done with the Bible today, we'd have NO way to know what
ANYTHING means as it's written or meant.

You'de do well to read the context of Matthew, it's all
about those who are not entering the kingdom -
and notice verse 21 that Jesus uses again:
"MANY will say to me on that day".
"multiple, numerous, great"

And many in Greek, means just that, many.
Few in Greek means few.

Alternatively, it could be a comment on virtue; those who group together are likely to be going astray one way or another, but the man who chooses to walk alone is more likely to be walking the difficult path of rightousness. Nothing to do with heaven or hell, in other words, but more to do with personal choices and morality.

It can only mean all these other things people want to change it
into when ignoring context and Greek grammar.

 

[Nadiine]

Any human relationship predicated upon fear is by definition a dysfunctional one.

I see no reason to believe that what is pathological in human relationships is healthy in relation to God. Therefore, basing our faith on fear is a non starter, imo.

Meanwhile, my denomination is clear that hell is about separation from God, and not about burning anywhere for eternity. I am very happy to say that I agree with this conclusion.

A Christian's relationship to God their FAther isn't predicated
upon fear becuz they are atoned for and have forgiveness which
bypasses God's judgment.
However, a Christian does know and believe God is all powerful and
the Judge of mankind; knowing what God can do and His full
authority over all the universe.

God is NOT HUMAN, and He is to be feared when a soul is in
rebellion and living in willful sinful lifestyles and will stand before
God at judgment.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear,
because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

A Christian has a love relationship with God - those who need to
fear are the lost who are not found righteous in God's eyes and
stand accountable to bear the full brunt of their sin.

With that said, I will say this, the accounts in scripture where
anyone has an epiphany of Christ or angels appear to them,
they fall on their faces and are literally in fear.

The angel or God has to stand them up. So it's bogus to think that
when we stand in front of a holy God in His full glory, that we will
have no fear whatsoever; when we know full well that even a
natural weather storm scares us significantly; this is the God of
the Universe - Creator of all and holy perfect, majestic God.

Imho, anyone who claims they have NO fear, gives me red flags.

I liked this quote I read:

The fear of God causes His children to run to Him, and His enemies to flee

The fear of God subsequently causes a pursuit of righteousness as we love Him more for the ever
expanding volume of grace we find He has bestowed upon us

There are many teachings on this subject - a healthy fear of God
is warrented and demanded by God in both testaments.

 

[preistsplace]

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
In addressing the multitudes (contained believers and non-believers) he says blessed are the poor in spirit .
Those who do not know God are truly poor in spirit right?
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Remember there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth