Be not Deceived

[thereselittleflower]

the winter and spring solstice is still celebrated by several religions not of God, so how does christianity redeem that which is still satan's?

It is not still satan's for those who are Christians.

What non Christians do we cannot control, but what we do we can control. For us, we do not celebrate a pagan holiday, but a Christian one . . for us we have redeemed the time. . . . as pagans convert, that time is redeemed for them too, for they no longer celebrate a pagan holiday, but a Christian one.

Everything is still being put under Christ's feet . . .not all is yet, experientially, under His feet . . . . . But we have laid claim to this time and redeemed it for the Church. It is simply a matter of time till the pagan celebrations are no more.

what is satan's belongs to satan.

Then how can you call yourself redeemed? This was God's world .. satan stole it .. . now Christ has redeemed it. All of creation waits for its redemption to be realized. The world belongs to Christ. The forces of evil still fight even though the battle has already been decisively won.

So, if what was once satan's always has to be satan's, then you have to be satan's still as well . . .

Obviously that is a false statement. And so the premise on which it is based is also false. . .

No, what belongs to satan does not "belong" to satan once it has been redeemed.

what is God's belongs to God.

Everything belongs to God. God and satan are not equals. Satan is a created being in rebellion to God. God is God over all.

you cannot take what is unclean [satan's] and "redeem" it to make it God's [clean].

Then how were you redeemed? You were once "unclean", no?

The scriptures tell us to redeem the time. . . .

Now you are saying that we can't do what we are commanded to do in scripture?

The Scripture is clear, the unclean makes the clean, unclean.

Until it is cleansed and redeemed.

The scriptures tell us to redeem the time.

The Church is not celebrating the pagan holiday . . the Church is celebrating its OWN holiday , , its OWN celebration of the birth, or death and resurrection of our Lord.

The only exception is the souls of men, by which we are redeemed/purchased by the blood of Christ and translated from darkness into His glorious Light.

There is no such exception in the scriptures. .. . this is something you and others have invented. But nowhere is such a position taught in scriptures.

The scriptures teach that all of creation awaits its redemption with the Children of God:

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
​

could you also provide scriptural proof that the church can or did redeem things from the kingdom of darkness and turn them into the kingdom of light?

We are commanded to redeem the time. That scriptural reference was already provided.

A command is pretty concrete. Is there a reason why this is not evidence enough for you?

by the way, what is it that you think satan stole that we have to get back?

thanx

Did, or did not God create time? Did time belong to satan in the beginning? No, of course not.

Why are we told to redeem the time if not to take back what was delivered into satan's hands by Adam through satan's deception of Eve?

ps: christmas and easter are man made celebrations. they have nothing to do with God - He is not the Author of them. they were created by man to worship God and if you chose to celebrate that is your decision, but these celebrations do not belong to God. They belong to man.

I am sorry you do not understand the nature of these celebrations. The Church is God's. You cannot separate the celebrations of the Church from God in the way you are doing. They are not commanded by Him like He gave the commandments to Moses. . . . however, that does not mean that God has nothing to do with them either. . . . .

God has chosen to work in partnership with the Church, which is the body of Christ who is God Himself.

Now . . . there is a lot to contemplate in those few words above . . . . .



.

 

[IamGodslittlegirl]

It is not still satan's for those who are Christians.

What non Christians do we cannot control, but what we do we can control. For us, we do not celebrate a pagan holiday, but a Christian one . . for us we have redeemed the time. . . . as pagans convert, that time is redeemed for them too, for they no longer celebrate a pagan holiday, but a Christian one.

Everything is still being put under Christ's feet . . .not all is yet, experientially, under His feet . . . . . But we have laid claim to this time and redeemed it for the Church. It is simply a matter of time till the pagan celebrations are no more.


Then how can you call yourself redeemed? This was God's world .. satan stole it .. . now Christ has redeemed it. All of creation waits for its redemption to be realized. The world belongs to Christ. The forces of evil still fight even though the battle has already been decisively won.

So, if what was once satan's always has to be satan's, then you have to be satan's still as well . . .

Obviously that is a false statement. And so the premise on which it is based is also false. . .

No, what belongs to satan does not "belong" to satan once it has been redeemed.




Everything belongs to God. God and satan are not equals. Satan is a created being in rebellion to God. God is God over all.



Then how were you redeemed? You were once "unclean", no?

The scriptures tell us to redeem the time. . . .

Now you are saying that we can't do what we are commanded to do in scripture?




Until it is cleansed and redeemed.

The scriptures tell us to redeem the time.

The Church is not celebrating the pagan holiday . . the Church is celebrating its OWN holiday , , its OWN celebration of the birth, or death and resurrection of our Lord.



There is no such exception in the scriptures. .. . this is something you and others have invented. But nowhere is such a position taught in scriptures.

The scriptures teach that all of creation awaits its redemption with the Children of God:

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
​

We are commanded to redeem the time. That scriptural reference was already provided.

A command is pretty concrete. Is there a reason why this is not evidence enough for you?



Did, or did not God create time? Did time belong to satan in the beginning? No, of course not.

Why are we told to redeem the time if not to take back what was delivered into satan's hands by Adam through satan's deception of Eve?




I am sorry you do not understand the nature of these celebrations. The Church is God's. You cannot separate the celebrations of the Church from God in the way you are doing. They are not commanded by Him like He gave the commandments to Moses. . . . however, that does not mean that God has nothing to do with them either. . . . .

God has chosen to work in partnership with the Church, which is the body of Christ who is God Himself.

Now . . . there is a lot to contemplate in those few words above . . . . .

1) redeeming the time simply means to make good use of your time - that is the context of the verse.

2) Jesus has already put all things under His feet.

3) satan did not steal anything - when man fell into sin via Adam, the world fell under the curse of sin

4) God does not work in partnership with the body of Christ. He is the Head, the Master, the Lord and King. We are bondslaves who seek only to do His will, not our own. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are higher than ours.

4) the earth and its "contents" will never be redeemed. the heavens and earth belong to God, as David spoke in the Psalms. they will be burned to a crisp and God will create a new heaven and earth. the earth waits for Jesus return when it will be made brand new, not under the curse of sin and when the redeemed of the Lord are made perfect in Christ. this is the manifestation of the sons of God.

5) all holidays are pagan, because they are not the Lord's. christmas and easter have nothing to do with Jesus. they are merely man's traditions to celebrate Jesus' death and resurrection. neither are they commanded nor suggested by God. Jesus fulfilled all the OT feasts [which were the *only* feasts of the Lord which pointed to Christ] - they are kept in Him as the complete, perfect Sacrifice for them.

If man chooses to celebrate christmas and easter as a form of worship to God, God will measure the heart. I have no complaint myself with those who choose to do so. My problem is that the traditions of christmas are pagan in origin and you cannot take pagan practices and make them clean. The Bible strictly forbids this practice - John called it making friends with the world, for they are worldly practices. Paul said a little leaven [unclean] would work its way through the whole loaf [clean]. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Most people keep christmas and easter because they do not know the origins and because they have been taught that it is necessary to "imitate" the gift that God gave through Christ. both holidays are based solely in tradition - there is absolutely no scriptural precedent for such. all that we need is in Christ. Jesus was not born at christmas, and He was not crucified and risen at easter. those are man's choices of times. we do not know these dates. they are not important.

6) God is over all, but satan is the god of this world. he reigns here over all that are not the Lord's until his time is done and he is thrown into the lake of fire. God has allowed satan and given him certain power over the earth, which is totally obvious by man's destructive propensity [physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally] as influenced by evil.

7) satan did not steal time, nor can we "redeem" it. again, the context of the verse is to use your time wisely and to the glory of God. God created time, owns it, and manages it

 

[thereselittleflower]

1) redeeming the time simply means to make good use of your time - that is the context of the verse.

Going with your understanding of this passage, the Church decided to make good use of the time around the pagan celebrations you speak of by celebrating Christ's birth and death and resurrection instead.

The Church has been redeeming that time in this way for almost 2000 years.

Let's look at what Paul actually said in Ephesians 5:16:

Redeem - the Greek word translated "redeeming" means this:

Lexicon Results for exagorazo (Strong's 1805)
Greek for 1805

Pronunciation Guide
exagorazo {ex-ag-or-ad'-zo}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:124,19 from 1537 and 59
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to redeem

a) by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom, buy off
b) metaph. of Christ freeing the elect from the dominion of the Mosaic Law at the price of his vicarious death

2) to buy up, to buy up for one's self, for one's use

a) to make wise and sacred use of every opportunity for doing good, so that zeal and well doing are as it were the purchase money by which we make the time our own
​

This is what it means to "redeem the time". The Church makes sacred use of these time frames to celebrate Christ's birth, death and resurrection.

To redeem the time is much, much more than simply making wise use of it. . . . . .

2) Jesus has already put all things under His feet.

That is not the whole story as we see in the scriptures:

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.​

He is still putting down al rule and authority and power. . . . .

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.​

He is still putting all enemies under his feet . . .

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.​

Death is not yet destroyed, proving thta all enemies are not yet under his feet experientially for us. . . .

1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
​

Though all things are under His feet, not all things are subdued; as I said in my previous post, the enemy still fights. . . . we still do battle, otherwise we would have no need of the armour of God.

3) satan did not steal anything - when man fell into sin via Adam, the world fell under the curse of sin

Why did the world fall under the curse of sin?

Who became the world's master? Who does the world serve?

Who did Adam choose to obey?

Satan. Your argument against what I said makes no sense.

4) God does not work in partnership with the body of Christ. He is the Head, the Master, the Lord and King. We are bondslaves who seek only to do His will, not our own. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are higher than ours.

Ummm . . . How is it that your body does not work in cooperation with your head?

How is it that we are told we are much more than bondslaves to God in scripture? How is it that we are told we are adopted children, CO-HEIRS WITH Christ?

Do you realize what this means?

Bondslaves do not inhereit with the son of the master . . . Bondslaves are not treated as full members of the family. Bondslaves are not called children.

Bondslaves do not rule and reign with the Son.

We are CO-HEIRS WITH Christ!

We inherit WITH Christ!

God joined Himself forever to humanity in the incarnation.

The second person of the Godhead is both God and Man, and will always be both God and Man.

God raised humanity to divinity by joining humanity to the Godhead in the person of Jesus.

This is mind boggling!

OF COURSE God is working in cooperation with those who are His through Christ.

This is why Jesus commands us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.

That is also mind boggling!

We are NOT mere bondslaves. . . . Islam teaches that is all we are . . . . that is not the Chrisitan message.

4) the earth and its "contents" will never be redeemed. the heavens and earth belong to God, as David spoke in the Psalms. they will be burned to a crisp and God will create a new heaven and earth. the earth waits for Jesus return when it will be made brand new, not under the curse of sin and when the redeemed of the Lord are made perfect in Christ. this is the manifestation of the sons of God.

I have already provided scripture which proves that the earth and all creation awaits its redemption.

Jesus, in Rev 21:5 says

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

The word "make" in Greek is in the PRESENT tense which means it is something not off in the future, but being done right now . . .

Other translations capture the sense of the tense more accurately:

NASB: And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

GWT: The one sitting on the throne said, "I am making everything new." He said, "Write this: 'These words are faithful and true.'"
​

5) all holidays are pagan, because they are not the Lord's.

There is absolutely no foundation for such a statement.

Holidays and Holy Days are two different things as well.

christmas and easter have nothing to do with Jesus. they are merely man's traditions to celebrate Jesus' death and resurrection.

If they are to celebrate Jesus' birth, death and ressurection then how can they have "nothing" to do with Jesus?

You just contradicted yourself by your own words.

If they are to celebrate His birth, death and ressurection then they have EVERYTHING to do with Jesus!

That is evident on its face!

Your arguments are not making any sense . . .

neither are they commanded nor suggested by God.

We are commanded to redeem the time.

Let me put it another way . .

WE are commanded TO REDEEM the time.

How we redeem the time God has left to us to work in cooperation with Him.

Our Holy Days do not need to be expressly stated in scripture . . . there is no warrant to suggest that they must. They ARE suggested by God in scripture by this command to redeem the time.

Jesus fulfilled all the OT feasts [which were the *only* feasts of the Lord which pointed to Christ] - they are kept in Him as the complete, perfect Sacrifice for them.

You are limiting yourself now to the Old Convenant. We are no longer in the Old Covenant. We are in the New Covenant. And there is nothing to suggest that the New Covenant is not to develop its own Holy Days and Feast Days.

Christ Himself instituted the first Feast, Holy Communion, which is to be celebrated by those in the New Covenant.

If man chooses to celebrate christmas and easter as a form of worship to God, God will measure the heart. I have no complaint myself with those who choose to do so. My problem is that the traditions of christmas are pagan in origin and you cannot take pagan practices and make them clean.

Then you contradict yourself again, for you say in one breath you have no problem with someone worshipping God by celebrating Christmas, and then in another you say you have a problem with it because it is "pagan" in origin.

You also make the error that pagan practices have been incorporated into Christianity.

Just because Christians celebrate Christ's birth near the winter solstice means absolutely nothing when it comes to whether or not pagan practices have been incorporated into Christianity.

(cont....)

 

[mike1reynolds]

So we have a second person who insists that Christmas and Easter are satanic?

What is this place, a magnet for loonies?

*Whistle* Charlie, the wagon! (with padded walls, driven by the men in white coats)

Now if you want to argue that it is not historically accurate, that is one thing, but to say that 99.9999% of Christianity is Satanic is simply an anti-Christian attack on all Christians.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Again, I will say what I said before .. similiarity does not mean sameness.

That it does is a lie of satan to confuse and bewilder believers and to keep them from fully participating in a most joyful celebration of their Lord's birth, something that was devestating to satan.

Why do you think satan doesn't want beleivers to celebrate Christmas? He doesn't want us to celebrate what was the beginning of his downfall.

Similiarities does not equal sameness.

If it did, the all of Christianity is pagan and we have to all ditch Christianity.

Here is where your logic leads us:

The wedding ring is pagan in origin, so we can't have Christian weddings because it is pagan in origin.

Communion is of pagan origin, so we can't celebrate communion, and Christ made Chrisitanity unclean by insituting it right from the beginning. . .

Look . . . here are words from one who once heavily promoted the belief that pagan errors had infiltrated the Church, especially the Catholic Church, because of Al Hislop's writing, "The Two Babylons", which were based on similiarities being treated as proof of sameness. He researched Hislop's work and found it to be full of error and came to the following realization regarding this issue of similarity/sameness:

Ralph Woodrow:

Let’s suppose that on May 10th a man was stabbed to death in Seattle. There were strong reasons for believing a certain person did it. He had motive. He was physically strong. He owned a large knife. He had a criminal record. He was known to have a violent temper and had threatened the victim in the past. All of these things would point to him as the murderer, except for one thing: on May 10th he was not in Seattle—he was in Florida!

So is it with the claims about pagan origins. What may seem to have a connection, upon further investigation, has no connection at all!

By this method, one could take virtually anything and do the same—even the “golden arches” at McDonald’s! The Encyclopedia Americana (article: “Arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. Since Babylon was called “the golden city” (Isa. 14:4), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered over and over about pagan origins.

By this method, atheists have long sought to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Roman Catholic Church.

By this method, one could condemn Protestant and evangelical denominations like the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist, Nazarene, etc. Basic things like prayer, and kneeling in prayer, would have to be rejected, because pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water, etc.

By this method, the BIBLE itself would need to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible, were also known among pagans—

raising hands in worship,
taking off shoes on holy ground,
a holy mountain,
a holy place in a temple,
offering sacrifices without blemish,
a sacred ark,
city of refuge,
bringing forth water from a rock,
laws written on stone,
fire appearing on a person’s head,
horses of fire,
the offering of first fruits,
tithes,
etc.​

​

http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html

And more:

Take enough names, enough stories, and enough centuries; translate from one language to another; and a careless writer of the future might pass on all kinds of misinformation, Gerald Ford, and American president, might be confused with Henry Ford, the car manufacturer. Abraham Lincoln might end up as the inventor of the automobile, the proof being that many cars had the name "Lincoln". The maiden name of Billy Graham’s wife is Bell. She has sometimes gone by the name Ruth Bell Graham. The inventor of the telephone was Alexander Graham Bell. By mixing up names, someone might end up saying Billy Graham was the inventor of the telephone; or that he invented Graham Crackers. In fact, the inventor of Graham Crackers was Sylvester Graham. Again, similarities could be pointed out. Both men were named Graham. Both men were ministers. But the differences make a real difference: Sylvester was a Presbyterian and Billy a Baptist, and they were from different generations.

Building on similarities while ignoring differences is an unsound practice. Atheists have long used this method in an attempt to discredit Christianity altogether, citing examples of pagans who had similar beliefs about universal floods, slain and risen saviors, virgin mothers, heavenly ascensions, holy books, and so on.

If finding a pagan parallel provides proof of paganism, the Lord Himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in His hand (Ps. 78:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14) Pagans worshipped the sun; the Lord is called the "Sun of Righteousness" (Mal. 4:2), Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called "the bright and Morning star" (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagans built a high tower in Babylon; the Lord is a high tower (2 Sam. 22:3). Pagans worshipped idolatrous pillars; the Lord appeared as a pillar of fire (Exod. 13:21-22). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4).

I realized that citing a similarity does not provide proof. There must be a legitimate connection.

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research Methodology

​

http://newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm

Where does it end?

The Bible strictly forbids this practice - John called it making friends with the world, for they are worldly practices.

Now you are simply making claims without providing any proof.

This is not what is being spoken of by John. This is simply what you are claiming, nothing more.

There is no forbidding of such practices by the scripture .. . this is simply your claim, and one that is totally unsubstantiated.

Paul said a little leaven [unclean] would work its way through the whole loaf [clean]. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

And what about what is redeemed is evil?

You are mixing up messages and coming to conclusions that have no true foundation.

Most people keep christmas and easter because they do not know the origins and because they have been taught that it is necessary to "imitate" the gift that God gave through Christ. both holidays are based solely in tradition - there is absolutely no scriptural precedent for such.

I hope we have established by now how the "pagan" argument is baseless and holds absolutely no water.

There is such a thing as "Sacred Tradition" . . . The scriptures speak of this. The scriptures tell us to stand and hold fast to the TRADITIONS taught by the Apostles . . .and they weren't only taught in writing, but also by word, ie verbally. We are told by scripture to stand fast and hold to the TRADITIONS taught by the Apostles both verbally and in writing.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.​

all that we need is in Christ. Jesus was not born at christmas, and He was not crucified and risen at easter. those are man's choices of times. we do not know these dates. they are not important.

Since Easter is tied to the Passover and it is absolutely a fact of Christianity that Jesus died and rose during this time frame, it is absolutely connected. Since we do not know the date of Jesus' birth, there is no day to connect it to, so the Church chose a date.

But again, the date is not important. What is important is the WHAT . . what we are celebrating . .. the BIRTH OF OUR LORD!

That is real and true cause for celebration for Christians, as is Christ's death and resurrection, and should never be made to appear as something evil.

Those who try to make such appear to be evil have missed the entire message of these celebrations, seeing evil where none exists.

6) God is over all, but satan is the god of this world.

How did satan become the god of this world? You said he stole nothing . . . God was the God of this world in the beginning, so how did satan become the god of this world?

Did God simply say, "satan, here you go, I am going to let you be god of this world"?

Or did satan do something to trick Eve who then led Adam to sin?

Satan stole this world through deceit, through trickery . . yet you claimed earlier he didn't. . . now you admit he is the god of this world . ..

How did this come to be?

he reigns here over all that are not the Lord's until his time is done and he is thrown into the lake of fire. God has allowed satan and given him certain power over the earth, which is totally obvious by man's destructive propensity [physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally] as influenced by evil.

And this is what I said before which you argued against. .

You are continuing to contradict yourself . . . . .

7) satan did not steal time, nor can we "redeem" it. again, the context of the verse is to use your time wisely and to the glory of God. God created time, owns it, and manages it

Of course he has stolen time. Personal time

If satan has dominion over people, then he has dominion over their time as well.

The word used in the verse in question is "REDEEM" . . . I have already provided the definition of this word above.

It means much, much more than simply using time wisely . . .

It means to BUY BACK . . . it means to RECOVER FROM THE POWER OF ANOTHER . . . . how do you buy back something, how do you recover something from the power of another that was never taken?

It means to buy back through SACRED USE . . . . How do you buy back by SACRED USE of time and make it your own if it was never taken?

Obviously, it was taken. . . . .

And we are to REDEEM the time. . . . .


The Church has done so regarding Chrsitmas and Easter in Her celebrations of these important KEY events in salvific history.

.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Therese, these long winded circuitous and obfuscating rebuttals are unimpressive in the extreme. Are you trying to give these crazy arguments credibility and strength? That is what it looks like.

All you are really doing is giving aide and comfort to those who claim that Christianity is Satanic. No one is going to read all that long winded blather except the person you are writing too, and they will take strength from it rather than being in anyway disheartened. You are doing nothing but egging them on to call Christianity a Satanic religion some more.

 

[IamGodslittlegirl]

Therese, these long winded circuitous and obfuscating rebuttals are unimpressive in the extreme. Are you trying to give these crazy arguments credibility and strength? That is what it looks like.

All you are really doing is giving aide and comfort to those who claim that Christianity is Satanic. No one is going to read all that long winded blather except the person you are writing too, and they will take strength from it rather than being in anyway disheartened. You are doing nothing but egging them on to call Christianity a Satanic religion some more.

My closing post is this: I did not say christianity was pagan or a satanic religion. The birth and and death of Christ are what they are according to scripture - all that was spoken and written, not to be added to or taken from. The "traditions" of christmas and easter have pagan roots and God does not take pagan idolatry and turn it into worship of Him, man does - the first time was the golden calf, and as Solomon told us - nothing new under the sun.

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

have a blessed life in Christ and Shalom in Jesus who is our Sar Shalom [Prince of Peace]

 

[thereselittleflower]

Therese, these long winded circuitous and obfuscating rebuttals are unimpressive in the extreme. Are you trying to give these crazy arguments credibility and strength? That is what it looks like.

All you are really doing is giving aide and comfort to those who claim that Christianity is Satanic. No one is going to read all that long winded blather except the person you are writing too, and they will take strength from it rather than being in anyway disheartened. You are doing nothing but egging them on to call Christianity a Satanic religion some more.

Oh well, they are what they are. All is in the eye of the beholder.

Actually, some do take time to read . . . . . some need to be given tools to see through the smoke and mirrors those who claim such things are actually erecting that confuse the issues . . ..


.

 

[BigChrisfilm]

Where did James go?

 

[freeindeed2]

Sorry, I left a church that claimed to have its own prophet less than a year ago (in fact I was born into that church and pastored for it for more than 10 years!).

Jesus is God's ultimate Word, the 'exact representation of Himself'. If Jesus isn't enough, then nothing is!

 

[thereselittleflower]

My closing post is this: I did not say christianity was pagan or a satanic religion. The birth and and death of Christ are what they are according to scripture - all that was spoken and written, not to be added to or taken from. The "traditions" of christmas and easter have pagan roots and God does not take pagan idolatry and turn it into worship of Him, man does - the first time was the golden calf, and as Solomon told us - nothing new under the sun.

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

have a blessed life in Christ and Shalom in Jesus who is our Sar Shalom [Prince of Peace]

It is amazing to me the arguments you are making. You are comparing the celebration of Christ's birth, death and resurrection to outright idol worship.

There is no comparison.

Did you know the Ark had pagan roots too?

Did you know that arks were plentiful among the pagans at the time of the making of the Ark of the Covenant?

Usually in the O.T., the ark of the covenant or ark of the testimony or ark of God. A chest or box mounted on poles for carrying. Other ancient peoples had similar portable shrines to carry idols of gods, especially into battle. The Israelites seem to have had a similar feeling for the ark. The box contained the stone tablets inscribed with the law, not an idol. It was also considered a throne for God. .........

Originally, the characteristic feature of the Ark was that it could be carried about. Portable shrines are known from Egypt and Mesopotamia and also from Canaan, where examples have been found decorated with cherubim, like those that eventually sheltered the Israelite Ark (1 Kings 8:6-7).

http://www.bibletexts.com/glossary/ark.htm
​

For images of Egyptian arks and their similarities to the Hebrew Ark:

http://www.bibleorigins.net/AmonReportableThrone.html​

Never before had an ark been used by God or the Israelites in any way . . .

Yet God told the Israelites to make an ark to house 3 very holy things . . . the mana, the tablets of stone, and Aaron's rod.

Yet God took a PAGAN item and made it into something sacred for the Israelites.

According to your arguments, because the ark has pagan roots, the God could not and would not turn it into something that has to do with worship of Him.

But contrary to your arguments, it is Obviouse God did . . so obviously your entire premise is utterly flawed and contradicted by scripture itself. . . .


There just is no warrant for the claims you are making . . . . .


.

 

[WarriorAngel]

My closing post is this: I did not say christianity was pagan or a satanic religion. The birth and and death of Christ are what they are according to scripture - all that was spoken and written, not to be added to or taken from. The "traditions" of christmas and easter have pagan roots and God does not take pagan idolatry and turn it into worship of Him, man does - the first time was the golden calf, and as Solomon told us - nothing new under the sun.

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

have a blessed life in Christ and Shalom in Jesus who is our Sar Shalom [Prince of Peace]

TLF said it well,,,,, but I want to add, Paul became all things to all people so that he could save them.

Oh well, they are what they are. All is in the eye of the beholder.

Actually, some do take time to read . . . . . some need to be given tools to see through the smoke and mirrors those who claim such things are actually erecting that confuse the issues . . ..


.

I always read what you post. I am sure many more do too.

 

[TheDivaAngel]

Personally, I am thankful for what Christmas and Easter stand for. Thank God He came, was born and then was crucified for ME! What a thought.

 

[Theophorus]

So we have a second person who insists that Christmas and Easter are satanic?

What is this place, a magnet for loonies?

*Whistle* Charlie, the wagon! (with padded walls, driven by the men in white coats)

Now if you want to argue that it is not historically accurate, that is one thing, but to say that 99.9999% of Christianity is Satanic is simply an anti-Christian attack on all Christians.

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

The Church has always done this. The hours of the day are dedicated to our Lord, the days of the week, and the seasons of the year.

All of time is centered around Christ, not separated from Him. God authored time.

 

[CaDan]

Going with your understanding of this passage, the Church decided to make good use of the time around the pagan celebrations you speak of by celebrating Christ's birth and death and resurrection instead.

The Church has been redeeming that time in this way for almost 2000 years.

Let's look at what Paul actually said in Ephesians 5:16:

Redeem - the Greek word translated "redeeming" means this:

Lexicon Results for exagorazo (Strong's 1805)
Greek for 1805

Pronunciation Guide
exagorazo {ex-ag-or-ad'-zo}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:124,19 from 1537 and 59
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to redeem

a) by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom, buy off
b) metaph. of Christ freeing the elect from the dominion of the Mosaic Law at the price of his vicarious death

2) to buy up, to buy up for one's self, for one's use

a) to make wise and sacred use of every opportunity for doing good, so that zeal and well doing are as it were the purchase money by which we make the time our own
​

This is what it means to "redeem the time". The Church makes sacred use of these time frames to celebrate Christ's birth, death and resurrection.

To redeem the time is much, much more than simply making wise use of it. . . . . .




That is not the whole story as we see in the scriptures:

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.​

He is still putting down al rule and authority and power. . . . .

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.​

He is still putting all enemies under his feet . . .

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.​

Death is not yet destroyed, proving thta all enemies are not yet under his feet experientially for us. . . .

1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
​

Though all things are under His feet, not all things are subdued; as I said in my previous post, the enemy still fights. . . . we still do battle, otherwise we would have no need of the armour of God.



Why did the world fall under the curse of sin?

Who became the world's master? Who does the world serve?

Who did Adam choose to obey?

Satan. Your argument against what I said makes no sense.



Ummm . . . How is it that your body does not work in cooperation with your head?

How is it that we are told we are much more than bondslaves to God in scripture? How is it that we are told we are adopted children, CO-HEIRS WITH Christ?

Do you realize what this means?

Bondslaves do not inhereit with the son of the master . . . Bondslaves are not treated as full members of the family. Bondslaves are not called children.

Bondslaves do not rule and reign with the Son.

We are CO-HEIRS WITH Christ!

We inherit WITH Christ!

God joined Himself forever to humanity in the incarnation.

The second person of the Godhead is both God and Man, and will always be both God and Man.

God raised humanity to divinity by joining humanity to the Godhead in the person of Jesus.

This is mind boggling!

OF COURSE God is working in cooperation with those who are His through Christ.

This is why Jesus commands us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.

That is also mind boggling!

We are NOT mere bondslaves. . . . Islam teaches that is all we are . . . . that is not the Chrisitan message.



I have already provided scripture which proves that the earth and all creation awaits its redemption.

Jesus, in Rev 21:5 says

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

The word "make" in Greek is in the PRESENT tense which means it is something not off in the future, but being done right now . . .

Other translations capture the sense of the tense more accurately:

NASB: And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

GWT: The one sitting on the throne said, "I am making everything new." He said, "Write this: 'These words are faithful and true.'"
​

There is absolutely no foundation for such a statement.

Holidays and Holy Days are two different things as well.



If they are to celebrate Jesus' birth, death and ressurection then how can they have "nothing" to do with Jesus?

You just contradicted yourself by your own words.

If they are to celebrate His birth, death and ressurection then they have EVERYTHING to do with Jesus!

That is evident on its face!

Your arguments are not making any sense . . .



We are commanded to redeem the time.

Let me put it another way . .

WE are commanded TO REDEEM the time.

How we redeem the time God has left to us to work in cooperation with Him.

Our Holy Days do not need to be expressly stated in scripture . . . there is no warrant to suggest that they must. They ARE suggested by God in scripture by this command to redeem the time.



You are limiting yourself now to the Old Convenant. We are no longer in the Old Covenant. We are in the New Covenant. And there is nothing to suggest that the New Covenant is not to develop its own Holy Days and Feast Days.

Christ Himself instituted the first Feast, Holy Communion, which is to be celebrated by those in the New Covenant.



Then you contradict yourself again, for you say in one breath you have no problem with someone worshipping God by celebrating Christmas, and then in another you say you have a problem with it because it is "pagan" in origin.

You also make the error that pagan practices have been incorporated into Christianity.

Just because Christians celebrate Christ's birth near the winter solstice means absolutely nothing when it comes to whether or not pagan practices have been incorporated into Christianity.

(cont....)

Classic TLF smackdown. It's like a Scott Stevens open ice check.

Nice to see you back. Did you see PaladinValer has wandered back, too?

*happy dance*

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi spacecat,

Thank you for the welcome back . . I am in and out as I wind up a big event I am helping to orchestrate next week. Try doing 9 months of work in 2-3 months!!!!!

I didn't intend for my posts to be a 'smack down' though . . I meant them to be thought provoking . . .usually, when I am dealing with people who adhere to such beliefs, it is hard to crack through the shell that insulates them from seeing things in their proper light . . . . I don't know if this is the right approach or not . . . BUT there is SO much evidence to the contrary of such claims of paganization that it boggles the mind when one starts to honestly look at it.

 

[icedtea]

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

The Church has always done this. The hours of the day are dedicated to our Lord, the days of the week, and the seasons of the year.

All of time is centered around Christ, not separated from Him. God authored time.

Thats one of the things I like about the Orthodox church, each month has meaning, fasts, saints, feasts, its just all timed.

 

[JamestheProphet]

Not everyone is able to receive the word of the Lord. That is not a problem. The Lord has been targeting certain individuals to receive His words. And as expected Satan has been right there to jump all over it trying to prevent God’s words from reaching those it is intended to reach. Only God’s words are mightier than Satan and they have been going out to those it was intended to reach.

I am not the first to come here proclaiming the words of the Lord and I will not be the last either. The Lord said Woe into you when men speak well of you for so did their fathers to the false prophets. Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. When we seek the praises of men and to please men we are condemning ourselves to the final death. However when we seek to please God and give Him our praise then He lifts us up and He becomes our rewarder and boy what rewards He do give unto His Children.

Be not afraid of what people might think about you or can do to you. Your Heavenly Father is protecting you and He is watching over you. Whatever you do, never ever be ashamed to speak up and tell people about our Lord Yeshua and our Heavenly Father. Yes, people will come against you and will hate you because they love the sin they are in. That is to be expected.

In the end it really DOES NOT matter what a person chooses to believes or chooses not to believe. The only thing that really matters is if that person’s name is written in the Book of Life. If the person does not have a one on one personal relationship with our Father and Yeshua then they are lost. Their name is not written in the Book of Life and they are doomed to be tossed into the Lake of Fire. It is only when a person is one with the Father and with His only begotten Son Yeshua and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit that their name can be written in the Book of Life. Yeshua said, ”I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me. “ There is NO other way. There is NO other name given unto men by which they must be saved. Only Yeshua is worthy to receive our glory and our honor and our praise.

NOBODY else. Only Yeshua was crucified died and was buried on the first day of Passover. Only Yeshua and NO ONE else rose again from the dead on the third day of Passover. Yeshua was tormented for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him and with his stripes we are healed. Yeshua is the perfect one. Yeshua is the Passover lamb that was sacrificed so that the Angle of Death will pass over us so we can live with the Father in his glory for all eternity. It is ONLY by our accepting the Blood Sacrifice of Yeshua for our sins and asking God to forgive us that our names can be written in the Book of Life. There is no other way. No fancy ritual or ceremony. No memorizing a lot of meaningless words and no having to sacrifice any thing except for our sins. Just ask God to forgive you and ask the Lord Yeshua to take control of your life and give him that control. Then go get Baptized as Yeshua was Baptized full emersion. Finally ask the Lord to give you his Holy Spirit. He will.

 

[JamestheProphet]

The Lord Yeshua said that the truth will be established by the testimony of 2 or more witnesses.

Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament can agree on the Lord’s name. In the Old Testament Yeshua is translated into Joshua and in the New Testament it is translated into Jesus.

Anyway the Lord’s name was Yeshua in the original Hebrew. His mother Mary named him Yeshua when he was born, his dad Joseph called him Yeshua, His brothers James and John called him Yeshua. Even his disciples called him Yeshua. Oh yea for those who do not want to believe Yeshua had blood relatives like brothers and sisters. James identifies himself as the Brother of Yeshua then while Yeshua was hanging on that cross he commanded his next oldest brother John to take care of his mother Mary as was the Jewish law. He could not have given that responsibility to a stranger like one of his disciples. It had to be his next oldest Brother or some other direct blood relative such as Mary’s older brother if there were no other males in his immediate family.

Ok now that we have established these facts. Anyone who cares to check this out by all means go get your Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and check it out for your self. 2424 in the Greek is translated Jesus (Yeshua) with a reference to 3091 in the original Hebrew (Yeshua) Joshua. The same Hebrew name translated into Greek and then into Latin and into English only into two entirely different names. Ok so the Old and the New Testaments do not agree on either Jesus or Joshua as being the Lords proper translated name. However the Old and New Testaments do agree on Yeshua and being His actual or Hebrew name. Two different witnesses agree as establishing the fact that the Lord’s proper given name is Yeshua and not Jesus nor Joshua.

 

[icedtea]

The Easter bunny is a satanic idol from accent Babylon along with Easter eggs, bunny rabbits, little ducks and chicks.

My avatar takes umbrage at your statement.