Be completely honest with yourself, is there something, about God that you do not want to find out truthfully because of fear?

myst33 said:

My question is what is there to be resurrected,

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My daughter never made it to the womb. Yet I had a dream about her in Heaven. God gives us all of our gifts, talents, and abilities at or before Conception. We need to use what we have to bring Him praise, honor and glory.

Diamond7 said:

My daughter never made it to the womb. Yet I had a dream about her in Heaven. God gives us all of our gifts, talents, and abilities at or before Conception. We need to use what we have to bring Him praise, honor and glory.

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Not an answer to my question, though.

myst33 said:

Not an answer to my question, though.

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If you had paid attention in Biology class. We begin life as a zygote. If she had lived, she would have been 40. But in Heaven, they do not develop the way they do here so she was very small and maybe 2 or 3 years old. Even the angel made a joke about how small she was.

Diamond7 said:

If you had paid attention in Biology class. We begin life as a zygote. If she had lived, she would have been 40. But in Heaven, they do not develop the way they do here so she was very small and maybe 2 or 3 years old. Even the angel made a joke about how small she was.

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I am sorry, but your dreaming is not a useful response for me. So let us let it be.

myst33 said:

I am sorry, but your dreaming is not a useful response for me. So let us let it be.

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Really, I tell you about a child that died and went to heaven and that is your response? Pretty cold hearted to me. Maybe you would be better off not saying anything at all when people share something like this with you.

biblelesson said:

The Jews were under a covenant, the law, that required the male child to be circumcised as a seal relating to the covenant God made with Abraham. That covenant would lead to Abraham’s seed, Christ, who would save the world of sin.

Once Christ comes (he came already) there would no more requirement to keep the law. Jeremiah 31:33 KJV speaks of this where God said, “but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” This scripture foretells the spiritual circumcison.

The writing of the laws in the inward parts is by the Holy Spirit that we receive when we “believe” on Christ. Ephesians 1:13 KJV, “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

It’s no more of works, but of grace.

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You're the one preaching salvation by works though.

Also, you didn't address my point.

Did Paul say that baptism is our spiritual circumcision made without hands? Yes or no?

In case you aren't familiar with the Scripture, this is what I'm talking about:

"In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised Him from the dead." - Colossians 2:11-12

Did we receive a spiritual circumcision in our baptism? Yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran

Diamond7 said:

Really, I tell you about a child that died and went to heaven and that is your response? Pretty cold hearted to me. Maybe you would be better off not saying anything at all when people share something like this with you.

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You proposed the resurrection of aborted children, I asked for technical details and you told me your dream that you had.

Your dream is not a good theological or philosophical basis for me, thats all. Dreams are a very subjective, individual experience. There is no reason why you should be offended that it does not fit a public discussion reasoning.

ViaCrucis said:

I understand the sentiment of wanting to think that children aren't sinners. But the truth is that each and every single one of us entered into this world a sinner,

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none of us entered the world sinning. None of us came into this world having a wrong action to be held accountable for. Yet all are "sinners" in that by nature - we have sin in our nature. A sinful nature. A bent towards rebellion against the Word of God.

"if you were blind you would have no sin.. but you say 'we see' therefore your sin remains" John 9:41

ViaCrucis said:

we were conceived and born with this broken, wounded humanity.

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True. But not with the ability to master abstract concepts such as sin, rebellion, obedience, gospel, hell etc. Babies don't have any of that ability.

ViaCrucis said:

Matthew 18:3 does not say that children are sinless, it says that we must be converted and become as children.

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The little children in that context are not infants who know nothing and have no moral values at all.

Rather they are small children that are very trusting when it comes to their parents.

myst33 said:

You proposed the resurrection of aborted children, I asked for technical details and you told me your dream that you had.

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I would have given you 1 John 2:2

myst33 said:

Your dream is not a good theological or philosophical basis for me, thats all.

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ok , that is true

biblelesson said:

Once Christ comes (he came already) there would no more requirement to keep the law. Jeremiah 31:33 KJV speaks of this where God said, “but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

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which does not say "no more requirement to keep the law".

Rom 3: "31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
John 14:15 "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:3 "This IS the Love of God that we KEEP HIS Commandments"

biblelesson said:

The writing of the laws in the inward parts is by the Holy Spirit that we receive when we “believe”

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True which is how it is that Moses and Elijah "stand WITH Christ" in glory - in Luke 9 and in Matt 17 -- even before the cross
Because as Paul reminds us in Gal 3:8 "The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"

myst33 said:

Not an answer to my question, though.

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Maybe you asked the wrong question.

BobRyan said:

I would have given you 1 John 2:2

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My question was what is there to be resurrected, when an aborted fetus does not have any personality yet.

But because such things quickly diverge into wild speculations, there is no need to open the question again.

ViaCrucis said:

You're the one preaching salvation by works though.

Also, you didn't address my point.

Did Paul say that baptism is our spiritual circumcision made without hands? Yes or no?

In case you aren't familiar with the Scripture, this is what I'm talking about:

"In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised Him from the dead." - Colossians 2:11-12

Did we receive a spiritual circumcision in our baptism? Yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran

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Colossians 2:11-12 KJV is talking about spiritual baptism, which is the baptism of the Holy Ghost, Acts 1:5 KJV, Matthew 3:11 KJV. The question you are asking pertaining to the verse you referenced in Colossians relates the the verse I gave you in Jeremiah 31:33 KJV.

The difference between spiritual baptism and water baptism is:
1) Spiritual baptism is the Holy Spirit given by the Lord when we believe on Him where we become holy in God’s sight without the requirements of the law (“I will write my laws in their hearts”).
2) Water baptism is a symbol of Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection. It’s an outward testimony of our faith and belief in Christ.

It is true that when we are baptized, we receive the Holy Spirit, but we receive the Holy Spirit as a result of our faith in Christ, not as a result of being immersed in water.

BobRyan said:

which does not say "no more requirement to keep the law".

Rom 3: "31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
John 14:15 "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:3 "This IS the Love of God that we KEEP HIS Commandments"

True which is how it is that Moses and Elijah "stand WITH Christ" in glory - in Luke 9 and in Matt 17 -- even before the cross
Because as Paul reminds us in Gal 3:8 "The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"

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You are speaking of works. We are no longer under the law, Roman’s 6:14 KJV.

The commandment in 1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV is not talking about the old commandments, it’s talking about the new commandments spelled out in the epistles under the new covenant. We must follow the new covenant not the old covenant.

You can’t ignore what the Bible us telling you, if we put ourselves under the old law, we will die, Galatians 3:11-13 KJV.

We don’t make void the law. The law is righteousness. But we are not righteous. Israel could not keep the law, and put a curse over it, so Christ came to redeem us from that curse of the law, Galatians 3:13 KJV, and God took away the requirements of the law for us by nailing those requirements on the cross, Colossians 2:14 KJV. The law is now written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

I hope you understand. You have to take all the related scripture and study them to fully understand what the gospel is saying.

You are using scriptures from the old law that Israel was required to keep. A good clue to the fact that the law is not a requirement anymore is when Christ died on the cross, the veil of the temple ripped. That signified the end of keeping the law. Because the law could only be administered under the Levite priesthood who administered animal sacrifice for the people in the temple, and went behind the veil once a year for the sins of the entire nation of Israel. Because the veil ripped when Jesus died on the cross, God was saying my Son who shed His blood for you is your sacrifice for sin now, and you no longer have to depend on the priest to approach the holy of holies in the temple. You can now come boldly to the throne of grace, Hebrews 4:16 KJV, in Christ Jesus because your sins are taken away by His blood.

Another clue that we don’t keep the law is If there are no more Levite Priest, we can’t keep the law. Christ ended that for us.

myst33 said:

My question was what is there to be resurrected, when an aborted fetus does not have any personality yet.

But because such things quickly diverge into wild speculations, there is no need to open the question again.

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A personality is how a person act, it’s not a person’s soul. An aborted fetus is known by God. There is no speculation with God. It’s God who knits us together in the wound, Psalm 139:13KJV, Jeremiah 1:5 KJV. An aborted fetus is a living body being formed and has a soul who God knows fully.

God knows the number of strands of hair on each person head that ever lived and is living now and will be born, Luke 12:7 KJV. Do you know how many strands of hair you have on your head? Let’s see you count them.

That’s why God is God and you are not!

biblelesson said:

A personality is how a person act, it’s not a person’s soul. An aborted fetus is known by God. There is no speculation with God. It’s God who knits us together in the wound, Psalm 139:13KJV, Jeremiah 1:5 KJV. An aborted fetus is a living body being formed and has a soul who God knows fully.

God knows the number of strands of hair on each person head that ever lived and is living now and will be born, Luke 12:7 KJV. Do you know how many strands of hair you have on your head? Let’s see you count them.

That’s why God is God and you are not!

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Are you sure your post makes sense?

myst33 said:

Are you sure your post makes sense?

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My reply to your post is for those who can read and discern truth, who understand cell structure and when life begins, and who believes the word of God!

biblelesson said:

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV is talking about spiritual baptism, which is the baptism of the Holy Ghost, Acts 1:5 KJV, Matthew 3:11 KJV. The question you are asking pertaining to the verse you referenced in Colossians relates the the verse I gave you in Jeremiah 31:33 KJV.

The difference between spiritual baptism and water baptism is:
1) Spiritual baptism is the Holy Spirit given by the Lord when we believe on Him where we become holy in God’s sight without the requirements of the law (“I will write my laws in their hearts”).
2) Water baptism is a symbol of Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection. It’s an outward testimony of our faith and belief in Christ.

It is true that when we are baptized, we receive the Holy Spirit, but we receive the Holy Spirit as a result of our faith in Christ, not as a result of being immersed in water.

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Why would he say baptism if he meant something other than baptism?

Let me be frank, I know why you're saying this, I know this mindset, I've been there. It's easier to change what the Bible says than to recognize that perhaps we have been taught things that aren't biblical.

I grew up in a couple of different kinds of churches, my first church was a non-denominational church, and my second church was a Pentecostal church (specifically Four Square). It was really hard for me, as I began to read the Bible more and spend more time learning about Scripture, studying theology, and studying Christian history to come to terms with the fact that I had been raised to believe things which simply weren't biblical. That I had been raised with certain doctrines and theological positions which were brand new, historically speaking, beliefs which the Bible did not teach, and which no Christian ever believed until very recently in history.

That was a hard pill to swallow. It was much more comfortable, much easier, when I simply accepted that what I was told in my church, to simply accept, without ever bothering to do any real study, uncritically, what I was taught. Especially since I was a child, and adults were telling me these things, and I naturally assumed as a child does that adults knew what they were talking about. But as I read the Bible more, and as I started having questions and asking questions more, the more problems arose as the answers I got rarely ever made sense biblically.

This ultimately led on a search for a church that was biblically and theologically sound. The trouble was that I didn't know what that was, which meant I did a lot of studying, a lot of research, I went to a lot of churches and began interacting more with Christians of many different backgrounds.

I won't go through my whole life story, but I want to explain that I am sympathetic about this. I understand just how difficult it can be to have one's views challenged, especially by ideas and views which perhaps are completely foreign.

I grew up a Dispensationalist, I believed the Left Behind books were a completely accurate explanation of "the end times". It did not even occur to me that there might be any other view out there, that there were Christians who believed anything different--and if they did, I reckoned, they might not even be "real Christians". So imagine how earth-shattering it was for me when not only did I meet Christians who didn't believe in a pretibulation rapture of the Church, but then when they challenged me to find these things in the Bible and I looked, I couldn't find them. Instead, when I began to read the passages of the Bible I had been taught which teach the rapture, it actually seemed they were talking about something else entirely, and then with dozens of other passages from the Bible that I had never heard, suddenly it seemed like the Bible was saying something very different then what I had been taught. Then imagine how boggling it was for me when, as I began to learn about the views and beliefs of Christians in the early centuries of the Church, and what most other denominations teach, that what I was reading in the Bible for the first time was actually what most Christians have always believed--but that I just had never heard it before.

Nobody taught me that Christ would come in judgment and that the dead would be raised bodily. I was taught that Jesus' return would be a secret and invisible thing where Christians would be transported directly into heaven to escape seven years of persecution. So when I saw in the Bible, for myself, without anyone teaching me, that Jesus would return on the Last Day in judgment and the dead would be raised bodily; and that in fact this is what has always been believed and is still what virtually all Christians still believe, it turned my entire world upside down.

So with all of that, here is what I invite you to do. I want to invite you to try reading the Bible this way. When you read your Bible and see the word "baptism", imagine for a moment that it means baptism. Don't add or change it to something else. When it says "baptism with the Holy Spirit" it means baptism with the Holy Spirit, but when it says "baptism" it means baptism. Try it, look at it, consider the possibility that the words as they are written mean exactly what they say. Don't alter the words, don't change the meaning, don't add anything, just read the words and see what the plain words on the page say, and let the Bible challenge you.

-CryptoLutheran

BobRyan said:

Rom 3: "31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
John 14:15 "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:3 "This IS the Love of God that we KEEP HIS Commandments"

True which is how it is that Moses and Elijah "stand WITH Christ" in glory - in Luke 9 and in Matt 17 -- even before the cross
Because as Paul reminds us in Gal 3:8 "The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"

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Here we see "the mere QUOTE of the text" in those examples

biblelesson said:

You are speaking of works. We are no longer under the law, Roman’s 6:14 KJV.

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Your objection to those texts are noted... but even Romans 6 is not helping your opposition to them

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 6:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? ...

8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all time; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Therefore sin is not to reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the parts of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead, and your body’s parts as instruments of righteousness for God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the Law but under grace.

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace? Far from it! 16 Do you not know that the one to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of that same one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were entrusted, 18 and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented the parts of your body as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your body’s parts as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

biblelesson said:

The commandment in 1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV is not talking about the old commandments

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Not true - as we can see in a few simple examples

Eph 6:2 "'Honor your father and mother' which is the first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of TEN

James 2: 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as violators. 10 For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do murder, you have become a violator of the Law. 12 So speak, and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of freedom.

James is not making an argument in favor of murder or claiming that old Ex 20 commandment does not apply.

1 Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" - where not one definition for that phrase in scripture means "exclude God's Commandments in Ex 20"

biblelesson said:

You are using scriptures from the old law that Israel was required to keep. A good clue to the fact that the law is not a requirement anymore is when Christ died on the cross, the veil of the temple ripped....

Another clue that we don’t keep the law is If there are no more Levite Priest, we can’t keep the law. Christ ended that for us.

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Heb 7 says the Levitical priesthood changes to the High Priestly ministry of Christ in heaven - but it does not say "it is no longer a sin to take God's name in vain"

Heb 10 says the animal sacrifices ended at the cross -- - but it does not say "it is no longer a sin to take God's name in vain"

Is it any wonder then that - almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"