BBC Study - Cleaners "worth more to society" than Bankers

EdwinWillers

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Actually, I think you can do this very easily, within logic, without implying anthropomorphisms. The market is a collection of transactions within specific limitations. The American market takes place within America; the global market takes place either within the globe, or between two countries. Now, the market itself isn't capable of morality; rather, as you said earlier, it holds a multiplicity of morals, precisely because it is corporate. Moreover, the market (as a collection of transactions) provides different things for different people. It's overall goal or aim, regardless of what is exchanged, is the the exchange, or the fulfillment of what each party values. I value footballs, a company making footballs values making money; we exchange product for cash, that's that.
This is basically correct. We're generally on the same page here... :thumbsup:

This much is very clear; all I've done is defined a market as a collection of these transactions. Individual transaction, or collective transactions, we still have the question of something being moral because it is freely transacted, or whether it depends on what is being transacted. We have to ask what is being transacted; we can't just look at the fact that things are being exchanged and declare the process moral precisely because there is free exchange. If we do this, we allow for things like drugs and smut to be moral. We can't say the process of exchanging is moral and then turn around and say that the things exchanged are immoral; the things exchanged are implied in the free transaction, and they are what defines the transaction as moral or immoral.
Well, I think you're asking the right question. "What makes a transaction moral - is it because of what is being exchanged or that the exchange is done freely; or should something else be considered?"

I agree with you that calling a transaction 'moral' on the basis of how freely it was done is not properly "moral." For, as you noted, the exchange could involve things admittedly valued by both parties, but at the same time such things that are not valued by others in society - or the rest of society as a whole (e.g. smut, illegal drugs, etc.) - or the very transaction itself.

Consider then a third possibility - the scope of the transaction.

Let's say someone opens up a inappropriate content shop in town. Proprietor and customers value what's being exchanged. But it's in town, the lewd advertising there for all to see, the opportunity perhaps for underage kids to go in and see what's only alluded to outside - etc. Would that be moral? I would argue no. Not on the basis that they customers and proprietor are free to exchange value for value (dollars for smut), but neither on the basis of what they are exchanging (smut). Rather, I would argue its immorality on the basis that their exchange is forcing others to view things they do not want to view; or forcing others to accept values (smut) they do not want to accept, or do not want their children say, to accept.

For a transaction to be free of force or coercion, it necessarily requires those whom the transaction may affect (directly or indirectly) be free of force or coercion as well.

Take the issue of second-hand smoke. While not a transaction per se (we can discuss "interactions" after we've exhausted the topic of "transactions"), it illustrates perfectly my point - that while a person may be "free" to smoke in a restaurant - those who sit in their vicinity are forced (against their will) to breathe that second hand smoke. The "scope" then of the smoker's "freedom" extends beyond just their table to those around them who are affected by their smoke as well.

Suppose then two people conduct a transaction where no one outside the transaction is involved in any way, affected in any way by it (I speak ideally). Does it matter what is exchanged? Should it matter? Who defines such a transaction as moral or immoral?
 
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Well, now we're into a philosophical debate about morality. You seem to be saying that morality is intersubjective or social and that an act is moral or immoral depending on the views or beliefs of the people who are making the transaction, whereas I would point out that it doesn't matter who is there or isn't there, a transaction is moral or immoral regardless.

Say that two people are basically killing each other (for no reason than unfettered aggression, Fight Club style) and nobody is there to witness their attacks on one another. They'd both obviously still be acting immorally towards one another. Even if they espouse their own morality, they would both be wrong. Why? Because morality is determined not by what people value, but by how positively or negatively it affects them and their surrounding society. If I'm a neo-Hedonist and I believe that fornication with anyone at any time is within moral bounds, this doesn't take away from the fact that these actions are immoral because they result in a lower qualitative state of overall happiness than other systems of morality would result in if actualized through human behavior.
 
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EdwinWillers

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Well, now we're into a philosophical debate about morality. You seem to be saying that morality is intersubjective or social and that an act is moral or immoral depending on the views or beliefs of the people who are making the transaction, whereas I would point out that it doesn't matter who is there or isn't there, a transaction is moral or immoral regardless.
LOL - I agree, we're getting pretty philsophical now.

We may be talking around details - but we're probably spiraling off topic regardless...
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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The whole "value-for-value" thing is fine on a person-to-person, localized level. In fact, for your everyday garden-variety economic transactions amongst peers, the market is best in about 90% of cases, if not more.

When one tries to scale that up, value-for-value continues to operate fine...to a point. Inevitably, some people will do better than others under a value-for-value system. Nothing intrinsically wrong with that. Until...

...you reach the point that those who do better end up doing much better, those who don't do so well really end up shafted...and these disparate results become entrenched, and, worse, begin to feed on themselves and get perpetuated from generation to generation.

Those who do well (or, to be more exact, their gentrified descendants) begin to write rules for the marketplace that perpetuate their own status while placing others at a disadvantage. As far as "value-for-value," you reach an Animal Farm moment when "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." If you're from the wrong side of the tracks, well, your "value" doesn't count as much; we don't serve your kind in the "value-for-value" marketplace because we own it.

It is this that is perhaps what bugs me the most about the Libertarian/Objectivist perspective: an almost childlike naivete that, even after some become millionaires and billionaires, we're going to continue to have a level playing field of "value-for-value"--that such powerful men are nobly going to make no attempt whatsoever to stack the deck in their favor. The fantasy that the son of a sharecropper, or a janitor, or a welfare mother actually can and should compete directly and with no handicaps against the son of a lawyer, banker or CEO. As if these two actually begin at the same starting line in life.

This Objectivist/free-market fantasy ranks right up there in willful obtuseness with the Marxist who honestly believes that the State he just handed dictatorial powers to during the revolution is going to meekly dissolve itself and "fade away." Yeah. Right. Good luck with all that.
 
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You say childlike naivete, other critics say infatuation with a rugged individualist, John Wayne ideal. All the same. We really, really like the idea of being absolute kings and queens of our own fate, and it's easiest to say this when you're on top and everything retrospectively appears to be the result of your will, without considering the motivation for this will. In short, the Randian rugged individualists believe the will exists in a vacuum, whereas the more sophisticated and spot on believe that the will isn't, and is anywhere from slightly to completely at the whim of external variables (which means determinism).
 
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wpiman2

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The whole "value-for-value" thing is fine on a person-to-person, localized level. In fact, for your everyday garden-variety economic transactions amongst peers, the market is best in about 90% of cases, if not more.

When one tries to scale that up, value-for-value continues to operate fine...to a point. Inevitably, some people will do better than others under a value-for-value system. Nothing intrinsically wrong with that. Until...

...you reach the point that those who do better end up doing much better, those who don't do so well really end up shafted...and these disparate results become entrenched, and, worse, begin to feed on themselves and get perpetuated from generation to generation.

Those who do well (or, to be more exact, their gentrified descendants) begin to write rules for the marketplace that perpetuate their own status while placing others at a disadvantage.

Who defines "much"?

Which is exactly why many view regulation as a bad thing. It is written by the powerful to protect the powerful. It may seem to be there to protect the common man, but often times regulation is just a mean to create high barriers to market entry to protect the encamped.

As far as "value-for-value," you reach an Animal Farm moment when "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." If you're from the wrong side of the tracks, well, your "value" doesn't count as much; we don't serve your kind in the "value-for-value" marketplace because we own it.

Animal farm is a allegory for communism. No one is making the claim that we are all equal in creating value.

It is this that is perhaps what bugs me the most about the Libertarian/Objectivist perspective: an almost childlike naivete that, even after some become millionaires and billionaires, we're going to continue to have a level playing field of "value-for-value"--that such powerful men are nobly going to make no attempt whatsoever to stack the deck in their favor. The fantasy that the son of a sharecropper, or a janitor, or a welfare mother actually can and should compete directly and with no handicaps against the son of a lawyer, banker or CEO. As if these two actually begin at the same starting line in life.

That is absolute bull. Let's take the most powerful position in the country. Bill Clinton came from a poorer family, and Barrack Obama's mother was on food stamps.

The superwealthy-- Gates parents were well off, Ellison's mother was a broke unwed 19 year old, and Buffet's family was middle class.

We live today in the closest thing ever to a meritocracy. Certainly the wealthy have more opportunities at breaks but never before in history have the poor been able to rise up like they can today.

This Objectivist/free-market fantasy ranks right up there in willful obtuseness with the Marxist who honestly believes that the State he just handed dictatorial powers to during the revolution is going to meekly dissolve itself and "fade away." Yeah. Right. Good luck with all that.

The free market is the best thing we've have to date. The freer the society and market, the more likely chances it has alleviated poverty. The evidence is all around us-- North Korea versus South Korea. Hong Kong and Taiwan versus China...........

Are there problems? Absolutely but if you have any better ideas with evidence to the contrary by all means share.
 
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Zlex

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Who defines "much"?

Which is exactly why many view regulation as a bad thing. It is written by the powerful to protect the powerful. It may seem to be there to protect the common man, but often times regulation is just a mean to create high barriers to market entry to protect the encamped.



Animal farm is a allegory for communism. No one is making the claim that we are all equal in creating value.



That is absolute bull. Let's take the most powerful position in the country. Bill Clinton came from a poorer family, and Barrack Obama's mother was on food stamps.

The superwealthy-- Gates parents were well off, Ellison's mother was a broke unwed 19 year old, and Buffet's family was middle class.

We live today in the closest thing ever to a meritocracy. Certainly the wealthy have more opportunities at breaks but never before in history have the poor been able to rise up like they can today.



The free market is the best thing we've have to date. The freer the society and market, the more likely chances it has alleviated poverty. The evidence is all around us-- North Korea versus South Korea. Hong Kong and Taiwan versus China...........

Are there problems? Absolutely but if you have any better ideas with evidence to the contrary by all means share.

I think Thomas Sowell's argument in "A Conflict of Visions" nicely sums up this debate -- there are competing definitions of what justice is, and in some way, it is important to understand that 'welfare statists' believe they are fighting for their vision of 'justice.'

That is not to say, it is necessary to agree with that view of justice, or acknowledge its validity, but only that the motivations of 'welfare statists', internally, as far as they are concerned, are based on their pursuit of their view of 'justice.'

Sowell neatly categorized the two camps as 'process based justice' vs. 'outcome based justice,' and the two views are infinitely non-reconcilable. Process based justice, simply stated, is belief in a consistent set of rules, applicable to all, such that any outcomes, no matter what they are, are arrived at justly. Outcome based justice is a belief in rigging the rules to guarantee equal outcomes for all, no matter what. As in Vonnegut's lead weighted ballerinas.

Under process based justice, there is no coerced limit aimed at the top half and bottom half. Both the self directed heights of the top half, as well as the self directed depths of the bottom half, are primarily limited by self practice under the common set of process based rules. Although, subscribers to this ideal, such as Hayek, also embrace the concept of a 'safety net' below which citizens would be encouraged not to fall, limited welfare. The real villain in this world, according to its opponents, isn't the rising level of that safety-net, but the unlimited heights of the top half. In order to sell this as villainy, they have to paint a child-like image of our economies as Poker Games, with a fixed amount of chips, or a mythical One Pie World, where every slice of pie in someone hands is by necessity taken from some other. Nonsense, that is not the way money works in healthy economies, only in cartoon concepts like 'The' Economy.

As well, such freedom, based on value-for-value, is demagogued as 'dog eat dog.'

There is also a clear political instability in this freedom; the bottom 51% is always woo-able by promises to eat the top 49% on their behalf, and that is the exposed path to power that freedom under process based justice exposes.

Under outcome based view of justice, the rules of process are infinitely and arbitrarily riggable on a person by person basis, whatever is necessary, to try to achieve equal outcomes for all, usually based on arguments of ability/need and endless claims of right to subsidy. The inevitable outcome of this is two miserable souls in rags, fighting in a hovel, showing each other their runny sores, arguing over who has the 'right' to the last not so maggoty piece of rotted meat on that basis.

In a universe where nothing is uniform and equal, including capabilities, work ethic, and propensity to shoot oneself in the foot, the only way to achieve 'equal' outcomes is to jerryrig process, and apply unequal and thus unfair process to individuals. Ideally, this enables the weak, but in practice, it also rewards the criminally inept and lazy, as well.

But in that same universe, the only way to permit 'equal' process is to live with the resulting massive inequalities of outcome, and the inevitable hopelessness and crime that results from same.

Should either camp ever drop the rope and excusively have its way, life would be awful, and our world would be terribly out of balance. So, the livable solution is an interminable tug of war between two competing camps view of justice, and the net result is some ever changing imperfect compromise between two irreconcileable views of justice.

We have to remeber when we are tugging at each other that both sides are doing their job to make life bearable.

Plus, and this is my other firm belief, we atavistically thrive on the tugging, and would just plain make up something to be in conflict over if we otherwise had nothing much of substance to angst over. (See parents in stands of any Little League game...)

The world is a compromise. We don't put lead weights on the really good ballerinas, yet, but we do put extra weight on thoroughbred horses with light jockeys. We do more than toy with "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need," but at least give lip service to weeding out overt criminal abuse, if not laziness.

Did I happen to mention that gradients drive everything? Even, gradients of views of justice...
 
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wpiman2

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I read his book "Housing Boom and Bust". It was fantastic. I haven't read this but the thesis seems interesting from how you describe it.

I think Thomas Sowell's argument in "A Conflict of Visions" nicely sums up this debate -- there are competing definitions of what justice is, and in some way, it is important to understand that 'welfare statists' believe they are fighting for their vision of 'justice.'

That is not to say, it is necessary to agree with that view of justice, or acknowledge its validity, but only that the motivations of 'welfare statists', internally, as far as they are concerned, are based on their pursuit of their view of 'justice.'

Sowell neatly categorized the two camps as 'process based justice' vs. 'outcome based justice,' and the two views are infinitely non-reconcilable. Process based justice, simply stated, is belief in a consistent set of rules, applicable to all, such that any outcomes, no matter what they are, are arrived at justly. Outcome based justice is a belief in rigging the rules to guarantee equal outcomes for all, no matter what. As in Vonnegut's lead weighted ballerinas.

Under process based justice, there is no coerced limit aimed at the top half and bottom half. Both the self directed heights of the top half, as well as the self directed depths of the bottom half, are primarily limited by self practice under the common set of process based rules. Although, subscribers to this ideal, such as Hayek, also embrace the concept of a 'safety net' below which citizens would be encouraged not to fall, limited welfare. The real villain in this world, according to its opponents, isn't the rising level of that safety-net, but the unlimited heights of the top half. In order to sell this as villainy, they have to paint a child-like image of our economies as Poker Games, with a fixed amount of chips, or a mythical One Pie World, where every slice of pie in someone hands is by necessity taken from some other. Nonsense, that is not the way money works in healthy economies, only in cartoon concepts like 'The' Economy.

As well, such freedom, based on value-for-value, is demagogued as 'dog eat dog.'

There is also a clear political instability in this freedom; the bottom 51% is always woo-able by promises to eat the top 49% on their behalf, and that is the exposed path to power that freedom under process based justice exposes.

Under outcome based view of justice, the rules of process are infinitely and arbitrarily riggable on a person by person basis, whatever is necessary, to try to achieve equal outcomes for all, usually based on arguments of ability/need and endless claims of right to subsidy. The inevitable outcome of this is two miserable souls in rags, fighting in a hovel, showing each other their runny sores, arguing over who has the 'right' to the last not so maggoty piece of rotted meat on that basis.

In a universe where nothing is uniform and equal, including capabilities, work ethic, and propensity to shoot oneself in the foot, the only way to achieve 'equal' outcomes is to jerryrig process, and apply unequal and thus unfair process to individuals. Ideally, this enables the weak, but in practice, it also rewards the criminally inept and lazy, as well.

But in that same universe, the only way to permit 'equal' process is to live with the resulting massive inequalities of outcome, and the inevitable hopelessness and crime that results from same.

Should either camp ever drop the rope and excusively have its way, life would be awful, and our world would be terribly out of balance. So, the livable solution is an interminable tug of war between two competing camps view of justice, and the net result is some ever changing imperfect compromise between two irreconcileable views of justice.

We have to remeber when we are tugging at each other that both sides are doing their job to make life bearable.

Plus, and this is my other firm belief, we atavistically thrive on the tugging, and would just plain make up something to be in conflict over if we otherwise had nothing much of substance to angst over. (See parents in stands of any Little League game...)

The world is a compromise. We don't put lead weights on the really good ballerinas, yet, but we do put extra weight on thoroughbred horses with light jockeys. We do more than toy with "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need," but at least give lip service to weeding out overt criminal abuse, if not laziness.

Did I happen to mention that gradients drive everything? Even, gradients of views of justice...
 
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EdwinWillers

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I think Thomas Sowell's argument in "A Conflict of Visions" nicely sums up this debate -- there are competing definitions of what justice is, and in some way, it is important to understand that 'welfare statists' believe they are fighting for their vision of 'justice.'

That is not to say, it is necessary to agree with that view of justice, or acknowledge its validity, but only that the motivations of 'welfare statists', internally, as far as they are concerned, are based on their pursuit of their view of 'justice.'

Sowell neatly categorized the two camps as 'process based justice' vs. 'outcome based justice,' and the two views are infinitely non-reconcilable. Process based justice, simply stated, is belief in a consistent set of rules, applicable to all, such that any outcomes, no matter what they are, are arrived at justly. Outcome based justice is a belief in rigging the rules to guarantee equal outcomes for all, no matter what. As in Vonnegut's lead weighted ballerinas.

Under process based justice, there is no coerced limit aimed at the top half and bottom half. Both the self directed heights of the top half, as well as the self directed depths of the bottom half, are primarily limited by self practice under the common set of process based rules. Although, subscribers to this ideal, such as Hayek, also embrace the concept of a 'safety net' below which citizens would be encouraged not to fall, limited welfare. The real villain in this world, according to its opponents, isn't the rising level of that safety-net, but the unlimited heights of the top half. In order to sell this as villainy, they have to paint a child-like image of our economies as Poker Games, with a fixed amount of chips, or a mythical One Pie World, where every slice of pie in someone hands is by necessity taken from some other. Nonsense, that is not the way money works in healthy economies, only in cartoon concepts like 'The' Economy.

As well, such freedom, based on value-for-value, is demagogued as 'dog eat dog.'

There is also a clear political instability in this freedom; the bottom 51% is always woo-able by promises to eat the top 49% on their behalf, and that is the exposed path to power that freedom under process based justice exposes.

Under outcome based view of justice, the rules of process are infinitely and arbitrarily riggable on a person by person basis, whatever is necessary, to try to achieve equal outcomes for all, usually based on arguments of ability/need and endless claims of right to subsidy. The inevitable outcome of this is two miserable souls in rags, fighting in a hovel, showing each other their runny sores, arguing over who has the 'right' to the last not so maggoty piece of rotted meat on that basis.

In a universe where nothing is uniform and equal, including capabilities, work ethic, and propensity to shoot oneself in the foot, the only way to achieve 'equal' outcomes is to jerryrig process, and apply unequal and thus unfair process to individuals. Ideally, this enables the weak, but in practice, it also rewards the criminally inept and lazy, as well.

But in that same universe, the only way to permit 'equal' process is to live with the resulting massive inequalities of outcome, and the inevitable hopelessness and crime that results from same.

Should either camp ever drop the rope and excusively have its way, life would be awful, and our world would be terribly out of balance. So, the livable solution is an interminable tug of war between two competing camps view of justice, and the net result is some ever changing imperfect compromise between two irreconcileable views of justice.

We have to remeber when we are tugging at each other that both sides are doing their job to make life bearable.

Plus, and this is my other firm belief, we atavistically thrive on the tugging, and would just plain make up something to be in conflict over if we otherwise had nothing much of substance to angst over. (See parents in stands of any Little League game...)

The world is a compromise. We don't put lead weights on the really good ballerinas, yet, but we do put extra weight on thoroughbred horses with light jockeys. We do more than toy with "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need," but at least give lip service to weeding out overt criminal abuse, if not laziness.

Did I happen to mention that gradients drive everything? Even, gradients of views of justice...
I am immensely enjoying "A Conflict of Visions" - as I am his book on Basic Economics. Both are excellent, excellent reads and well worth anyone's time to pick up and read for themselves.

As to the world being a "compromise" - I think in addition to your observations, the fundamental differences between man and woman are proof that neither's perspective are absolutely "right" or always right. So too in politics.

Yet my fear is that while the concept of compromise led this nation at one time, it's becoming evident such is no longer the case. The increasing polarization separating both sides is (if it hasn't already) destroying any hopes of compromise as the pendulum of hubris gains momentum with each swing in the cycle. At some point the swing will topple and whomever is in charge when it does will dictate all terms and conditions going forward, sans any pretense (or hope) of compromise.

Where man and woman are generally equal today, it has not always been this way. And if we're not careful, we're going to find ouselves someday in either a politically patriarchal or matriarchal world where one side rules while the other side finds themselves as second class citizens, or worse.

Should either vision of humanity, constrained or unconstrained, ever succeed in their hubris to absolutely control the other, the other will thereafter be slaves of the former.

And it begins with the process of polarization - the refusal to acknowledge or accept the value the other side brings to the table as a match to your own. Rather than being able to cooperatively exchange ideas with a view to some common goal beneficial to both, one side believes it must force the other to accept their value, and their value alone, thoroughly debunking and devaluing the others in the process. Rather than a transaction of value for value, just the opposite occurs - forcible acceptance of one's values over the others.

It would be difficult to argue that what's going on in our country (or even here in CF) today is much different than this...
 
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Zlex

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I am immensely enjoying "A Conflict of Visions" - as I am his book on Basic Economics. Both are excellent, excellent reads and well worth anyone's time to pick up and read for themselves.

As to the world being a "compromise" - I think in addition to your observations, the fundamental differences between man and woman are proof that neither's perspective are absolutely "right" or always right. So too in politics.

Yet my fear is that while the concept of compromise led this nation at one time, it's becoming evident such is no longer the case. The increasing polarization separating both sides is (if it hasn't already) destroying any hopes of compromise as the pendulum of hubris gains momentum with each swing in the cycle. At some point the swing will topple and whomever is in charge when it does will dictate all terms and conditions going forward, sans any pretense (or hope) of compromise.

Where man and woman are generally equal today, it has not always been this way. And if we're not careful, we're going to find ouselves someday in either a politically patriarchal or matriarchal world where one side rules while the other side finds themselves as second class citizens, or worse.

Should either vision of humanity, constrained or unconstrained, ever succeed in their hubris to absolutely control the other, the other will thereafter be slaves of the former.

And it begins with the process of polarization - the refusal to acknowledge or accept the value the other side brings to the table as a match to your own. Rather than being able to cooperatively exchange ideas with a view to some common goal beneficial to both, one side believes it must force the other to accept their value, and their value alone, thoroughly debunking and devaluing the others in the process. Rather than a transaction of value for value, just the opposite occurs - forcible acceptance of one's values over the others.

It would be difficult to argue that what's going on in our country (or even here in CF) today is much different than this...

It is one thing to pull very hard on the end of a rope in a political tug of war; Rand certainly did that, she had to. It was her on one side of the rope, and millions of slobbering fools on the other, pulling her back towards an abyss she had already fled.

It is another thing to politically advocate ideological all or nothing. I think such arguments most often end with nothing, ie, chronic deportation to fringeville.

None of this endless cyclical election nonsense changes until the wheels fall totally off. Unfortunately, what comes out the other side of that is just as likely to be MadMaxWorld, blood in the streets, not universal enlightenment. The 'hope' in people's desperate bewildered eyes is the result of having been left to rot by cronyism and unfettered sharks in the water. Who sold out America? It surely wasn't just inept government. It was also the financial industry. Free market capitalists also failed miserably to clean out their own swamps of alligators. In the end, the nation wasn't up to it.

On the national stage, in the national debate, the ideas of von Mises, Hayek, and Rand, etc. are clearly taking a beating in the current climate. Never mind, among the nation as a whole, these ideas have not even made much headway within the GOP half of the national party. I am not saying this disparagingly, but I am saying it sadly, these ideas have been firmly relegated to fringeville.

I've asked myself why, as I'm sure many have.

I think that maybe in a conflict between collectivist ideas and freedom from the mob, the collectivist side of the tug of rope has a distinct political advantage, in that it suffers from no reticence about collective political action.

We'll likely blow through our remaining $5T in world credit in less than 2 years, at this rate, the pumps will still be crying out for 'priming', and that is going to leave the printing presses. Soon enough, we'll be Zimbabwe, too. There doesn't seem to be any 'stop' to this in sight, not Obama, not Congress.

What is going on now seems just like an end game, and has for quite a while. It smells like an end game, it tastes like an end game. Folks are jockeying for some last minute deals before the wheels fall off, still some meat squirming ont he carcass.

I kind of miss my youth, the good old days, when I could vote for Clark and still end up only with Reagan.

Good luck.
 
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