• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Bathsheba

Discussion in 'Egalitarian Christians' started by PloverWing, Jul 27, 2018.

  1. PloverWing

    PloverWing Episcopalian

    +3,315
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    If your church follows the Revised Common Lectionary, you know that II Samuel 11:1-15 is the Old Testament reading for Sunday. I'm the lector for this coming Sunday, which means I'm immersing myself in this passage for a few hours so that I can read it well on Sunday.

    The story is David and Bathsheba. Clearly, David is sinning here, and the text condemns him. Adultery, and murder. That's what my Sunday School teachers talked about, once upon a time. David sleeps with a woman who doesn't belong to him, and then murders her husband to cover it up.

    But in this age of #MeToo, another aspect of the story has struck me: The writer of II Samuel doesn't seem to care about Bathsheba's consent. It's not clear that David cared about Bathsheba's consent. The king sends for you, and you go, because what else are you supposed to do? #BathshebaToo, sigh.

    If I can, I'm going to try to communicate all this as I read on Sunday. Gak, I'd always sympathized with David, poor guy, made one little mistake and got in all kinds of trouble. Now I'm seeing it entirely differently. I note that David's son Amnon follows in his father's footsteps just a couple of chapters later.

    Thanks, folks, for listening to my rant. Sunday morning church doesn't really provide a forum for discussing the readings, and I don't know whether my priest is going to preach about Bathsheba. He's a good preacher, but #MeToo may not be on his mind the way it's on my mind.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

    222
    +73
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    The word form looks ambiguous. It seems to be used when Noah takes the dove into the ark and when Judah takes a wife as well as for violent actions: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/vaiyikkacheha_3947.htm (but maybe those actions were done without consent too, I don't know)

    Genesis 8:9
    HEB: וַיִּשְׁלַ֤ח יָדוֹ֙ וַיִּקָּחֶ֔הָ וַיָּבֵ֥א אֹתָ֛הּ
    NAS: out his hand and took her, and brought
    KJV: his hand, and took her, and pulled her in
    INT: put his hand and took her and brought about

    Genesis 38:2
    HEB: וּשְׁמ֣וֹ שׁ֑וּעַ וַיִּקָּחֶ֖הָ וַיָּבֹ֥א אֵלֶֽיהָ׃
    NAS: was Shua; and he took her and went
    KJV: [was] Shuah; and he took her, and went in
    INT: name was Shua took her and went about

    EDIT:
    In 2 Samuel 2:4 it is in the Qal form. This is the simple form of the verb so we should get the idea of how it is used from the context. (which I see as non-violent and consensual) If it was violent it would make note of that in the text. (I think)

    לָקַח laqach

    Stem: Qal
    Aspect: Imperfect

    * The Qal Imperfect verb form occurs 19,885 times in the Old Testament.

    Definition of "Qal Stem"
    Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the "simple" or "casual" action of the root in the active voice.

    Examples:

    he sat, he ate, he went, he said, he rose, he bought

    This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  3. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +8,144
    Christian
    Married
    Ho boy ... David made more than just one little mistake here. He was on a roll until Nathan confronted him.

    I'm sure that that he anticipated no resistance from Bathsheba, ... and there is no record that she resisted.
     
  4. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +16,245
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    Yes, I've always found Bathsheba's situation uncomfortable. Did she consent? Did she want David? Did she protest? The Scriptures are silent. And all too often, the tradition has painted her as to blame; the evil temptress who set out to seduce, who deliberately exhibited herself, etc etc.

    We just don't know. By being silent on all these things I think the narrative does objectify her; she becomes an object in David's story, rather than a person in her own right, with her own agency.

    And while it's perhaps a reflection on the culture which produced the Scriptures, we do want to be conscious of these things lest we let those Scriptures then form our culture, unconsciously reproducing unhealthy patterns as well as healthy ones.

    There could be a good sermon in it, but I must admit I couldn't go past the Ephesians reading for Sunday on being "rooted and grounded in love." Perhaps if David had been "rooted and grounded in love," he might have thought twice?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  5. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

    +16,225
    Canada
    Unorthodox
    Married
    I see no fault in Bathsheba here. It was a intensely patriarchal culture in which the king's word was absolute law. For example, if a messenger brought bad news it usually meant the death of the messenger. Free will is somewhat curtailed in such circumstances.
     
  6. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,253
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Very interesting topic. One wonders what "consent" (to any number of things) meant in this culture at this time - that is, one wonders what a local would have made of our ideas about consent.

    I certainly have no special insight here, but I appreciate your bringing this up, @PloverWing. Hope it goes well. And I always appreciate a prepared lector.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,926
    Anabaptist
    No one said Bathsheba sinned, no one in Scripture that is.
    Her consent was not a consideration, as likewise often found in Scripture for men and women both , and children ....

    Joseph did not consent to be put in a hole in the ground, nor to be sold as a slave....
    His acceptance of Yahweh's Will as he noted later resulted in Yahweh's people being spared during the famine, and much more, and many more people....

    There's probably many more not remembered and not even thought of yet....
    accepting Yahweh's Will, the direction Yahweh moves His people and how , and even the pagan nations ..... perfect without flaw is His Wisdom and His Design and His Plan as He Accomplishes all things .....
     
  8. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +14,252
    United States
    Other Religion
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    That's how I always understood it as well.

    We're far removed in time from the bronze age, and we in our culture tend to understand Biblical stories in terms of asceticism, lust and sexual temptation. I've never understood Bathsheeba as a temptress (though I don't think she was exactly "unwilling", more likely she had no modern understanding of selfhood and autonomy). But maybe I've been lucky, I wasn't really raised with this story being a prominent part of biblical readings or sermons.

    I honestly think of it as one of those "Bible horror stories". Some preachers or pastors love to use it to humanize David but it's also potentially deeply problematic unless we are willing to read the Biblical narrative critically.
     
  9. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +16,245
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    But we know, from God's reaction (mediated by the prophet Nathan) that this thing was not God's will.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,926
    Anabaptist
    I had't thought about it this way before, but do you mean
    similar (or not similar) to
    Joseph being thrown in a hole by his brothers, then sold as a slave ?

    Man/ men meant it for other reasons, but God meant it for good. (as it is described more fully in His Word)
     
  11. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +16,245
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    God can work good out of all things, but I do not believe that God wanted, intended, or orchestrated David's behaviour with Bathsheba.
     
  12. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

    222
    +73
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Just to play devil's advocate, if you look at the genealogy in Matthew 1:
    "6 and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. . . .
    16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ."

    Bathsheba ended up being the ancestor of the Messiah. Is it possible that God directed this situation for that to happen? Or did God allow this situation to happen merely to show that the Messiah was not defined by his ancestors?

    God does allow, or even orchestrates some pretty counterintuitive things. Take for example the book of Job. He allows Satan to take everything away from Job but he also initiates the conversation that gets Satan to suggest that test. It's very confusing and the best answer as to why it happened I have is that God was using Job to witness to Satan which is a pretty weird conclusion but the evidence for that is for another thread. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
  13. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +16,578
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    Having been at the city of David a couple of weeks ago, I can tell you that he could have seen all kinds of things from atop any building, let alone a palace. It overlooks a valley.

    Every married Jewish woman was required to bathe following her period before resuming sex with her husband. The water had to be "maim Chaim," or living water; either from rain or a stream. Houses then had flat roofs and many had pots up there to collect rainwater for that purpose. If no servants were available to carry the water into the house, she would take the ceremonial dip up there during the day when (most) men were at work.

    And David was supposed to be out with his army.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  14. RainbowBrains

    RainbowBrains New Member

    36
    +12
    United States
    Christian Seeker
    Private
    I don't think God orchestrated adultery. Not only is that contrary to what he said about the situation, it'd in lone with something a lot of christians seem to do where they believ that because something sort of worked out later that God retroactively approves or orchestrated the whole thing.

    I have been coming to the conclusion that David, much like other men of his time, did not respect women. Probably due to that curse incurred in the garden. Thank Yah for Yeshua.
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,926
    Anabaptist
    Hmmm.....
    Did Yahweh orchestrate Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery ?

     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,926
    Anabaptist
    King David, called and chosen by Yahweh, as Yahweh says in the BIBLE, has a heart after Yahweh (how many men ever did Yahweh say this of ? )

    So no, King David, anointed by Yahweh, did not have a problem with Yahweh's view of women (nor men or children, etc; anyone) . Since Yahweh and Yahshua are no respecter of persons, i.e. they don't respect women , it is awkward asking those who are Yahweh's Ekklesia to do something that Yahweh doesn't do, eh ?
    (note that "respect" as used in this type of context is a faulty sinful carnal human thing,
    not originating from Yahweh nor in the born again "new creation" life. )

     
  17. RainbowBrains

    RainbowBrains New Member

    36
    +12
    United States
    Christian Seeker
    Private
    I think he would have orchestrated Yosef getting into Egypt without his brother's selling him into slavery. I have yet to see anywhere in the bible that says it had to happen the way it did.

    Does Yehovah orchestrate the rape of another so that a child can be born later? Does he orchestrate the molestation of a child for some future purpose? Considering what Yah says about adultery, victimising/misleading children, and rape I would lean toward no. Joseph getting sold into slavery by his brothers is the result of a father not handling his business when it comes to his sons. He made it so obvious that he loved Joseph more than the rest of thwm, and somehow there was so little love between the brothers, that they sold him.
     
  18. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

    +6,393
    United States
    United Methodist
    Celibate
    US-Others
    God does not orchestrate evil. It's not in his character. But if something evil happens, whether due to our own sinful choices, someone else's sinful choices, Satan's attacks, etc., God can turn it around and use it for good. God may foresee evil happening and warn us of the consequences, but he does not *cause* it to happen.
     
  19. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,926
    Anabaptist
    Second guessing Yahweh is not a good idea, ever.
    Genesis 50:20 ESV - As for you, you meant evil against me, - Bible ...
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+50:20&version=ESV
    As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

     
  20. RainbowBrains

    RainbowBrains New Member

    36
    +12
    United States
    Christian Seeker
    Private
    I mean that he didn't seem to value them.

    He can be after Yah's heart and still be messed up. Women were under a curse at te time. I cant remember which of Yah's festivals didnt het celebrated properly the entire time he was king. He was still a man after God's heart. I'm not trying ti take that from him.

    He sent for a woman he knew was married, putting her in a bad position at best, he failed to do anything other than be mad when his daughter got raped by his son, later he mourns the mess out of his son when he is killed by her brother (no mourning or justice for her eh?). I understand him having to leave Mikhal for a while I guess but the brave warrior makes no attempt to get her back until (Avner?) decided to defect and he had her taken from the husband she was with. That just doesn't sound to me like a man who values women, or at least, that doesn't necessarily value the women in his life. It is what it is.
     
Loading...