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Divide

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So there's no one in heaven except little babies who have yet to learn to speak and the lifelong non-verbal (either from mental deficits or physical ones)?

Or are you under the impression that there are people who have never lied?

Huh? There's no one that has never lied, except Jesus. That everyone has lied (here on earth) doesn't mean that none of them will ever go to heaven. But there will be no liars in heaven. The Lord forgives us for lying...and then we learn to stop being a liar while here on earth. With my point being...that we make effort to stop being a liar, even little white lies. For us to stop murdering and commiting adultery, but continue to lie, creates a danger for us spiritually, for the Lord told us to walk in and hold His commandments. See?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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There are many levels of morality, that are gained over a lifetime. For example because I have a highly developed sense of morality I place my shopping cart neatly in the cart corral while others are content to leave a jumbled mess for the store to sort out.
These people aren't immoral. It just doesn't occur to them that this isn't helpful.

Another wonderful thing I do is to drive away quickly from a 'short green' traffic light so that others can get through before the light changes. Few do this because they are unaware that there are others behind them (although a quick glance in their rearview mirrors would reveal their presence).

I could go on and on about the many wonderful things I do to make life better for others, but you get the picture.
 
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Divide

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Amen Brother, I try to be nice and helpful to people too. Some things it seems like would be better to lie about than tell the honest truth. Like you're own private business for instance. It's been said that..."only a fool tells the bald truth at social occasions" (Heinlein, I think?) and that makes perfect sense, in a worldly way. I'm learning to try to not tell white lies and just answer it in a roundabout way which doesn't reveal the truth, but isn't a lie either.

Idk what it is, but lying has always struck a nerve with me. I've read all those body language books on how to spot a liar and I'm actually pretty good at it. My ex-wife called me a human lie-detector and hated it, lol! My earthly dad told when I was young...walk with honor.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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My grandmother used to say, "Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies."
 
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essentialsaltes

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Thanks for your response, essentialsaltes!

You're welcome!

Well, I do not see how an (abstract, explicit) value system is necessarily required for that. My (re)action can be pretty spontaneous or intuitive.

Previously we had this exchange:

me: Would you agree that there are implicit rules that govern that conduct?
you: Implicit rules? No, I don´t think so, but I may not really understand what you mean by that.

I agree that an explicit value system is not necessarily required, but maybe you see now what implicit rules might be like. I mean, your choices are not random, I trust. They may be spontaneous or contradictory at different times, or you might regret a choice and wish you had chosen otherwise later -- and maybe that action might help to make an implicit spontaneous value resolve into a different explicit considered value.

(On a sidenote, if I´d answer the questions mentioned in the OP, the follow up questions will be: "How do you know these are values? How do you do you determine these are values?"

Those are easy. They are values because you value them.

I consider morality to be, like aesthetics, subjective. Some people like chocolate, others like vanilla. These are subjective values. How do you know you like chocolate? You just do! Liking is something you experience directly. You don't need to compare it to anything outside yourself. Oh, you could come up with external reasons about having sugar and fat in chocolate, and how it makes sense that chocolate tastes better than gravel soaked in motor oil, or kale. But some people don't like chocolate, and no one can tell them they're objectively wrong. Their tastes are their tastes. Moral issues are the same. Some value 'choice' over 'life' and others value 'life' over 'choice'. This value could be a gut instinct that has never been examined, or it could be the result of careful deliberation. In either case, it is a value sincerely held by that person.


Right, you don't have a... codified moral system. But you have some values that bear on moral questions.

When presented with a buffet of 250 different foods, you don't select them at random (I assume). You choose the ones that seem desirable to you, and maybe later you look at your plate and say, "Hey, I guess I really like pickled things."

(And obviously, tastes change over your lifetime. When you were 6, your plate had 8 different flavors of Jello on it, and no pickled things at all.)

Uhmm, I honestly doubt that. I´m pretty sure they would feel being sold short.

I don't know. "Do you want to live in a world where people don't have gay sex?"
"Do you want to live in a world where people obey your god's will (as you interpret it)?"

I think plenty of people here would happily say 'yes' to this formulation of their moral views.


Well again, I was suggesting this as a way of 'translating' their talk into something more meaningful to you. If they ask 'How do you know?" you can say that you know what your own values are. You know what you desire or prefer as an outcome. You know you like chocolate, or pizza, or whatever your favorite food is.

Or in some moral cases, maybe you don't know, and are still working it out, or will know your values (perhaps imperfectly) in the moment when you have to make a choice. Do you like the taste of mealworms? Maybe you don't know. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your aesthetic faculty.
 
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quatona

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essentialsaltes, just so there is no misunderstanding and we aren´t talking past each other:
It´s not like I am in need of an explanation how I pick my choices. I have a pretty clear idea as to how I do that (and it seems to be somewhat close to the way you picture it).

Rather, questions such as mentioned make me entertain the idea that these people are asking about something differently. I would like to learn what that is.
Doesn´t mean your input isn´t welcome.

Uhmm...that my actions follow my preferences (in the broadest sense - anything from spontaneous desires to codified value systems) seems pretty self-suggesting and trivial. I mean, if that were the answer people are looking for, we wouldn´t see these questions pop up time and again.



Those are easy. They are values because you value them.
You think they are asking for a tautology?

I consider morality to be, like aesthetics, subjective. Some people like chocolate, others like vanilla. These are subjective values. How do you know you like chocolate? You just do!
Yes, so from within that explanation the question "How do you know...?" is pointless. Yet, these persons seem to ask for some explanation - which indicates that they work from different premises.



Right, you don't have a... codified moral system. But you have some values
Yes, I do - but "values" to me sounds like a cognitive abstraction, and I don´t think such is required. How would you differenciate between "values" and "preferences"?
that bear on moral questions.[/quote]
What renders a question a "moral" question, in your terminology?

Well, sure. I sense, though, that answering these questions "because I want/desire/prefer to...or value..." will leave the askers feel misunderstood.



I don´t know...seems to me like those two statements are of entirely different qualities (and the answers may not even be the same for the same person, but rather point to a conflict between desires and/or values).



Well again, I was suggesting this as a way of 'translating' their talk into something more meaningful to you.
Actually that was exactly what I tried to avoid when making this thread: Superimposing my views on their statements/questions.
If they ask 'How do you know?" you can say that you know what your own values are. You know what you desire or prefer as an outcome. You know you like chocolate, or pizza, or whatever your favorite food is.
Then again, when I say things like "I like pizza" I never get asked "How do you know?". But when I talk about my behavioural preferences and values that´s exactly the point where the question "How do you know/determine that this is morally good?" come up.
 
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Chesterton

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You think they are asking for a tautology?

Yes, I ask for a tautology, the same way I ask for the tautology of 2+2=4. Morality and mathematics have this in common, that we simply see they are true.

2 and 2 is 4.
Injustice is wrong.​

These statements are similar. You can tell injustice is wrong because we take the word "justice" and add the prefix "in". Of course this assumes the value judgment that justice is right or better than injustice, but if you don't simply "see" that, you're a sociopathic anomaly within the human species and you might as well think 2+2=5.

Morality and math also have this in common: they are external to the mind. We don't invent them, we discover them.
 
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quatona

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Morality and math also have this in common: they are external to the mind. We don't invent them, we discover them.
Thanks for clarifying your view.
Would be a perfect example how those questions can be based on a premise I don´t buy into, and why trying to answer them would only lead to further misunderstandings.
 
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essentialsaltes

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You think they are asking for a tautology?

Chesterton apparently agrees.

I mean, when your stereotypical Christian says she supports "Judeo-Christian values", no one asks her, "How do you know these are values? How do you do you determine these are values?"

Those are the values she supports, and therefore they are valued by her, and are, tautologically, values.

Yes, so from within that explanation the question "How do you know...?" is pointless. Yet, these persons seem to ask for some explanation - which indicates that they work from different premises.

I'm not sure they do. If you did ask her, she might say, "Because I have an indwelling Holy Spirit, and this is how I know." I don't want to put words in people's mouths, but we've all heard the same or similar many times. How is this different from listening to your own values (assuming there are no Holy Spirits)?


Yes, I do - but "values" to me sounds like a cognitive abstraction, and I don´t think such is required. How would you differenciate between "values" and "preferences"?

I don't know that there is, other than linguistic.

I prefer, when cutting a cake at a child's birthday party, that everyone receive an equal-sized piece.
I value equality.

I prefer, when dividing federal moneys for social programs, that the neediest receive a greater amount (and those not in need receive none).
I value equity.

What renders a question a "moral" question, in your terminology?

Like obscenity, I know it when I see it. Philosophers haven't had much luck in defining it, and I am a poor philosopher.

Questions regarding difficult choices to be made in conducting one's life. Choices that touch upon deeply held and possibly conflicting values. Questions regarding what 'ought' to be the case or 'should' be done.

"Is climate change happening?" is not a moral question, but a factual one.
"Ought we do anything about climate change?" is a moral question.


Well, I can't help that they're mistaken about the nature of morality.
But maybe you'll get more satisfactory answers from the people who feel that way.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I don't think anyone "stops lying" in their lifetime...and anyone who believes that they have is probably lying to themselves.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Lol you're practically a paragon of virtue Old...
 
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Ana the Ist

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Injustice...even justice...are not objective though.
 
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Allandavid

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Eels...??
 
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Chesterton

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Thanks for clarifying your view.
Would be a perfect example how those questions can be based on a premise I don´t buy into, and why trying to answer them would only lead to further misunderstandings.

As in the other thread, you find fault in other's views but have no alternative of your own to put forward. Seems unjust, dare I say immoral, in a Discussion and Debate forum.
Injustice...even justice...are not objective though.
Yeah you guys always say that until someone murders you.
 
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AlexDTX

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Eels...??
It's a misspelling on my part that spell check could not catch.
mo·res
(môr′āz′, -ēz)
pl.n.
1. The accepted traditional customs and usages of a particular social group.
2. Moral attitudes.
3. Manners; ways.
[Latin mōrēs, pl. of mōs, custom; see mē- in Indo-European roots.]
 
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quatona

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As in the other thread, you find fault in other's views
Not sure where you detected me finding fault with anything here. I just recognized how a question was loaded with a premise I do not hold. How´s that putting anyone at fault?
but have no alternative of your own to put forward.
When you say
"Morality and math also have this in common: they are external to the mind. We don't invent them, we discover them.", you have mentioned an alternative yourself. So how much more clarification is needed when I say that I don´t buy into this premise?
Seems unjust, dare I say immoral, in a Discussion and Debate forum.

Chesterton, if you have an axe to grind with me, just PM me. Please don´t use and derail my threads for getting personal things off your chest. Thank you.
 
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Divide

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I don't think anyone "stops lying" in their lifetime...and anyone who believes that they have is probably lying to themselves.

Right. But I'm trying, and making the effort to stop it. I have reasonable success at it, but am not perfect by any means.
 
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Allandavid

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What's "justice"...?
 
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