Bart ehrman's books- what do you think?

ssoliman

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I've recently started reading Bart's books ("misquoting jesus"," paul, peter and mary","forged") While i haven't finished any of these books yet i am starting to get worried that maybe we don't really know where the bible came from- how do you argue against Ehrman's central theme in his books that is: we don't know who wrote most of the books in the Bible and we don't know much about the authors themselves? Is anyone's faith also being shaken here? Any advice on this particular author? (i am reading prochristian material too but Bart's material is backed up consistently so its not really about reading from both sides because he makes arguments that apparently are common knowledge in scholarly circles that aren't told to the average joe in sermons)
Thanks
Ssoliman
 

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The man does not believe in the inerrancy of the original autographs .He does not believe the eyewitness accounts of the writers of the N.T. This should tell you all you need to know about the man. He does not believe the bible is the word of God.
 
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OzSpen

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I've recently started reading Bart's books ("misquoting jesus"," paul, peter and mary","forged") While i haven't finished any of these books yet i am starting to get worried that maybe we don't really know where the bible came from- how do you argue against Ehrman's central theme in his books that is: we don't know who wrote most of the books in the Bible and we don't know much about the authors themselves? Is anyone's faith also being shaken here? Any advice on this particular author? (i am reading prochristian material too but Bart's material is backed up consistently so its not really about reading from both sides because he makes arguments that apparently are common knowledge in scholarly circles that aren't told to the average joe in sermons)
Thanks
Ssoliman
In a popular forum like CF, it is too technical to get to the core of Bart Ehrman's errors that relate to many of his theologically liberal presuppositions. Knowing that he has moved from supposedly being an evangelical to a liberal indicates where he is going in what evidence he accepts and rejects.

I'm in the midst of writing a PhD dissertation (dissertation only) on an aspect of John Dominic Crossan's view of the historical Jesus. In making my assessment, I'm analysing a lot of data and challenging a lost of conclusions. I know the hard work and long hours that it takes.

To get to the bottom of what Ehrman is saying, would take a lot of detailed study. I have analysed some of his material, but not enough to answer your questions.

As a starter to try to cut through some of Ehrman's presuppositions, I'd recommend a read of Andreas J Kostenberger & Michael J Kruger 2010. The Heresy of Orthodoxy. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway. The sub-title of the book is, How contemporary culture's fascination with diversity has reshaped out understanding of early Christianity.

If you are wanting detailed critiques of some of Ehrman's basic theology of the historical Jesus, I'd recommend N. T. Wright, The New Testament and the People of God (1992) and Jesus and the Victory of God (1996). For the supreme defense of the resurrection of Christ against all comers, see N. T. Wright, The Resurrection of the Son of God (2003).

Bart Ehrman is in the camp that does not like the scholarly challenges of his views that come from evangelical scholars.

Sincerely, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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I highly recommend you check out www.aomin.org If you want to hear Bart get pummelled in a debate and be thoroughly exposed as nothing more than a "radical" check out the debate there btn James White and Bart Ehrman...
That is what Kostenberger and Kruger do in The Heresy of Orthodoxy (Crossway 2010). Ehrman is resuscitating the Walter Bauer thesis that he wrote in German in 1934, but it was not published in English until 1971, Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity (ed. Robert Kraft and Gerhard Krodel, trans. Paul J. Achtemeier. Philadelphia: Fortress).

Ehrman has made Bauer's thesis his own and is promoting it in mainstream and liberal religious culture. Some of the fellows of the Jesus Seminar are promoting the same thesis which is: There was diversity of doctrine in the earliest of Christianity. There was no one Christianity but Christianities - different versions of belief. For them, early Christianities did not differentiate between orthodoxy and heresy. That did not come until centuries later. When applied to the canon of Scripture, the Bauer-Ehrman thesis is that there was early diversity and that what has become canonical and extra-canonical were not differentiated in the early church.

This view has been dismantled, line by line, by scholars down through the years, but Bart Ehrman has resurrected it to try to confuse Christians and get them to think of diversity in early Christianity. The end result is that the books such as the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, Gospel to the Hebrews, etc. are just as valid as the NT canonical gospels.

The Bauer-Ehrman thesis has been shown to be flawed over and over, but Ehrman, Pagels and the Jesus Seminar would not admit that.

That's why I highly recommend the recent publication by Andreas J Kostenberger & Michael J. Kruger 2010. The Heresy of Orthodoxy. Wheaton Illinois: Crossway, as it is a marvellous critique of the Bauer-Ehrman false doctrine. Here is part of their conclusion (and they have argued the case):
The Bauer-Ehrman thesis is invalid. Earliest Christianity was not infested with a plethora of competing heresies (or "Christianities," as Ehrman and other Bauer paragons prefer to call them); it was a largely unified movement that had coalesced around the conviction that Jesus was the Messiah and exalted Lord predicted in the Old Testament....

Debunking the Bauer-Ehrman thesis was not the main purpose of this book. Others have provided compelling refutations before us. The intriguing question is why the Bauer-Ehrman thesis commands paradigmatic stature when it has been soundly discredited in the past. The reason it does so, we suspect, is not that its handling of the data is so superior or its reasoning is so compelling. The reason is rather that Bauer's thesis, as popularized by Ehrman, Pagels, and the fellows of the Jesus Seminar resonates profoundly with the intellectual and cultural climate in the West at the beginning of the twenty-first century (p. 233).
In Christ, Oz
 
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thanks for the link
I highly recommend you check out www.aomin.org If you want to hear Bart get pummelled in a debate and be thoroughly exposed as nothing more than a "radical" check out the debate there btn James White and Bart Ehrman...
 
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Never read his work, though I understand he's a decent enough scholar. I would think it'd be worth balancing his work with a range of scholarly material. As unbiased as scholars try to be, true objectivity may be near-impossible when it comes to things such as this. The science behind historical and textual studies isn't as exact or precise as it is in the natural sciences where we can make objective conclusions based on solid evidence.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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OzSpen

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I've recently started reading Bart's books ("misquoting jesus"," paul, peter and mary","forged") While i haven't finished any of these books yet i am starting to get worried that maybe we don't really know where the bible came from- how do you argue against Ehrman's central theme in his books that is: we don't know who wrote most of the books in the Bible and we don't know much about the authors themselves? Is anyone's faith also being shaken here? Any advice on this particular author? (i am reading prochristian material too but Bart's material is backed up consistently so its not really about reading from both sides because he makes arguments that apparently are common knowledge in scholarly circles that aren't told to the average joe in sermons)
Thanks
Ssoliman
Have you read James White's article, "Bart Ehrman's consistent inconsistency"?

As has already been mentioned, Ehrman's worldview was exposed big time by James White in the Ehrman vs White debate that is available from Alpha & Omega Ministries.

Sincerely, Oz
 
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ssoliman

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No offense or anything but Searching through James White's material was fine at first until i found out he's a calvinist...i just don't think itll help me(personally) to read a refutation by someone in my opinion who doesn't understand one of the most important messages in bible in the first place.-again really not trying to offend anyone
 
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miamited

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hi ssoliman,

Personally, I doubt any of his books even make good fire kindling, but your're free to use it as you see fit.

Any book that's going to try to impress you with some new found understanding of the 2,000 year old standing new covenant writings is worthless. Perhaps you've never come to know the purpose of the Scriptures and who wrote them. I'd be happy to help if you're interested.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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ssoliman

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OzSpen said:
That is what Kostenberger and Kruger do in The Heresy of Orthodoxy (Crossway 2010). Ehrman is resuscitating the Walter Bauer thesis that he wrote in German in 1934, but it was not published in English until 1971, Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity (ed. Robert Kraft and Gerhard Krodel, trans. Paul J. Achtemeier. Philadelphia: Fortress).

Ehrman has made Bauer's thesis his own and is promoting it in mainstream and liberal religious culture. Some of the fellows of the Jesus Seminar are promoting the same thesis which is: There was diversity of doctrine in the earliest of Christianity. There was no one Christianity but Christianities - different versions of belief. For them, early Christianities did not differentiate between orthodoxy and heresy. That did not come until centuries later. When applied to the canon of Scripture, the Bauer-Ehrman thesis is that there was early diversity and that what has become canonical and extra-canonical were not differentiated in the early church.

This view has been dismantled, line by line, by scholars down through the years, but Bart Ehrman has resurrected it to try to confuse Christians and get them to think of diversity in early Christianity. The end result is that the books such as the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, Gospel to the Hebrews, etc. are just as valid as the NT canonical gospels.

The Bauer-Ehrman thesis has been shown to be flawed over and over, but Ehrman, Pagels and the Jesus Seminar would not admit that.

That's why I highly recommend the recent publication by Andreas J Kostenberger & Michael J. Kruger 2010. The Heresy of Orthodoxy. Wheaton Illinois: Crossway, as it is a marvellous critique of the Bauer-Ehrman false doctrine. Here is part of their conclusion (and they have argued the case)
In Christ, Oz

Thanks Oz for the reference definitely going to read that.
 
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Charles Spurgeon

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No offense or anything but Searching through James White's material was fine at first until i found out he's a calvinist...i just don't think itll help me(personally) to read a refutation by someone in my opinion who doesn't understand one of the most important messages in bible in the first place.-again really not trying to offend anyone

It goes without saying that the Calvinists are the ones who have their heads on straight...

Trust me... you'll want Dr. White on your side. He is one of the greats of our current time.
 
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AndOne

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It goes without saying that the Calvinists are the ones who have their heads on straight...

Trust me... you'll want Dr. White on your side. He is one of the greats of our current time.

Agreed - a good example of this is William Lane Craig - he seems to have trouble answering the tough questions posed by atheists - most Calvinsts don't seem to have that problem.
 
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ditto
It goes without saying that the Calvinists are the ones who have their heads on straight...

Trust me... you'll want Dr. White on your side. He is one of the greats of our current time.
 
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I've read two of his books, large parts of the NT Introduction, and Forged.

My sense is that he's a good early church historian, but not so good at putting details together into a coherent picture. That is, in the NT intro it seems to me that he got all of the varieties of Christianity, and that his details on the formation of the NT are right. But he seems to be missing recent Jesus scholarship, of the NT Wright type. I think that even understanding the variety of viewpoints present in the NT, we can see in them a (somewhat messy I admit) portrait of someone who came to initiate God's kingdom, and died to accomplish it. So I guess I think he got all the trees but not the forest. I have a sense that this is partly due to his disillusionment with Christianity, and partially due to his being more an early Church historian than someone involved deeply in Jesus research and 1st Cent Judaism.

Given that his text is universally used for NT courses, I'm a bit concerned about the impact on students. I believe the text needs to be supplemented by material about Jesus scholarship. It doesn't make sense to study a literary work, and look more at where it came from than the message it is trying to convey.

His case in Forged looked reasonable, up to a point. His main point was that even in ancient times people didn't approve of misleading your readers about authorship. His argument seemed plausible. However he didn't look at the use of scribes, and transparent references to ancient figures, as happened in a couple of OT books. This meant that he didn't examine the documents he talked about to see whether they would fit one of the models other than forgery. In the case of the pastorals and 2 Peter, I doubt that scribal practice is enough to save them if critical analysis is right. However in other examples I think his analysis was superficial, and thus his conclusions likely wrong.

William Lane Craig thinks he is a casuality of an overemphasis on inerrancy. Craig's theory is that when Ehrman starting seeing evidence against inerrancy, his Christianity was demolished, because his faith rested on inerrancy.
 
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