Baptists: How can I disprove Purgatory to a Catholic?

[FreedByte]

You will never disprove it to some one who believes that. They will only except if the bible says no its not there, and the bible does not say that.

Don't waste your time with things that do not matter any way. I would suggest focusing on salvation, grace and faith and love.

I once believed it and was convinced out of it, but now I am reconsidering.

 

[Bluelion]

I once believed it and was convinced out of it, but now I am reconsidering.

really? interesting, what made you change your mind?

 

[FreedByte]

really? interesting, what made you change your mind?

Well I had not been well trained in the Catholic faith so it was not that difficult for me to fall for the sola scriptura argument, which I no longer believe in.

 

[Bluelion]

Well I had not been well trained in the Catholic faith so it was not that difficult for me to fall for the sola scriptura argument, which I no longer believe in.

well that is to bad. What do you believe now?

 

[FreedByte]

What do you believe now?

I am deciding between Anglicanism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Catholicism.

 

[David Waffen]

I suggest going to a site like Catholic Answers and getting the exact understanding they have of topic and collecting the bible references they will use and examine the contexts and work from there.

The problem you will have is that the bible isn't the only "final authority" they recognize and that really becomes the "argument" in any baptist/catholic debate.

Excellent point.
The comments in this topic are a perfect example of how people want to argue with fellow Christians rather than understand them. I have noticed on CF and other places that Christians are more interested in debating their own strawmen than actually getting at what the other person believes.

 

[David Waffen]

... The sarcastic little creaton in me would like you to remind your Catholic friend alllll about how by only reading in Italian,

That makes no sense.

by having a religion based more on works than faith,

Roman Catholicism is not based on works.

by baptising babies and claiming they have fire insurance,

Roman Catholics do not believe that.

and a host of other little things, they made it very difficult for most people in the middle ages to be mature, born again believers.

The concept of 'born again believers' did not exist until 80 years ago.

And then tell them that the idea of purgatory was born around the time all this was going on... and the whole get out of purgatory by giving lotza money to the church idea.

The helper in me is telling you to remind them whats in the bible and what isn't and to use the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man to clarify that said rich man was in a hellish environment and had no personal hope of working his way out.

Hope this helps! Please excuse the sarcastic creaton, she'd like to go back in time and murder some of the clurgy from back then.

I could get to all the other comment s in this topic, but this is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Christians would rather argue than understand.

Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is something that purges all sin and failure in the moment after death before going to heaven. I think all of us believe there is a moment at our death that we change, that we leave behind our sin and failures. Baptists tend to ignore this leaving behind our baggage, Roman Catholics tend to see it as a longer process.

We will find that we are more on the same page when we talk to, rather than past each other.

 

[Skala]

The roman catholic has the duty to positively prove the existence, you can not prove a negative.

This^

The burden of proof is on them.

 

[FreedByte]

This^

The burden of proof is on them.

It's not a matter of proof; it's a matter of faith, interpretation, and historical analysis.

 

[Skala]

It's not a matter of proof; it's a matter of faith, interpretation, and historical analysis.

It is a matter of proof.

If I claim that God is Triune, I have to prove it, don't I? (which I can)

 

[GenetoJean]

It is a matter of proof.

If I claim that God is Triune, I have to prove it, don't I? (which I can)

But isnt the OP about how he, as a Baptist, can disprove purgatory to a Catholic?

 

[FreedByte]

It is a matter of proof.

If I claim that God is Triune, I have to prove it, don't I? (which I can)

But your argument is predicated on a belief in a monotheistic deity, which is not an idea that should be (else what purpose does faith serve) proven and hasn't been proven.

Think of it this way:

Let's say we both stumble upon a sealed box. If I started trying to prove to you that the apple inside it is green and not red, you would reply wondering how I knew that there was an apple inside at all. If I told you that I simply had faith that there was an apple inside and you did not share that belief, then our discussion could go no further. If you did share that belief that there was an apple inside, then I could attempt to justify my opinion about what color the apple is, but I would not be able to prove that the apple is green because the proof would be based on faith in the unproven concept of the apple's existence.

 

[Rhamiel]

You can't disprove something that doesn't exist.

Not a single thing about purgatory in the Bible. Therefore, you can't point them to the Bible to disprove purgatory - cuz it doesn't say anything about it!

That being said, you can ask them how long they'd be a Catholic if purgatory didn't exist. You see, Purgatory is the "safety net" for Catholicism. Without purgatory, Catholicism is a hard sell. They rely on purgatory to catch them like a safety net and cleanse all their sins. otherwise they'd go straight to hell since Jesus alone wasn't sufficient to save them. (they believe that salvation is by Jesus + their own efforts). Every Catholic knows that they totally fail in their own efforts to achieve salvation, so they know that purgatory is mandatory if anyone is to end up in heaven.

Take away purgatory and it's pretty hard to convince someone to be a Catholic.

(bolded by me for emphasise)
this seems to be a popular view
but I do not really see it

this is the Baptist forum and I am not here to argue, but for my teen years, I never really gave any thought to Purgatory and I was a practicing Catholic.

also, it is not Catholic belief that everyone goes through Purgatory

 

[Rhamiel]

Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is something that purges all sin and failure in the moment after death before going to heaven. I think all of us believe there is a moment at our death that we change, that we leave behind our sin and failures. Baptists tend to ignore this leaving behind our baggage, Roman Catholics tend to see it as a longer process.

pretty much this

ok, I will not inject anything else into this thread unless you guys have a direct question for me

 

[All Souls]

I need a good Baptist view on why Purgatory isnt a valid Biblical teaching.

No Catholic would be persuaded by your argument because Purgatory is taught by the Magisterium, i.e. they accept the authority of the Bible, but it is not their only authority of matters doctrinal.

 

[Skala]

but for my teen years, I never really gave any thought to Purgatory and I was a practicing Catholic.

So you're pretty confident in your own righteousness?

Nice! I'm not. I know I need Jesus for 100% of it.

 

[Rhamiel]

So you're pretty confident in your own righteousness?

Nice! I'm not. I know I need Jesus for 100% of it.

I did not say anything about resting on my own righteousness

all that I have is from the grace of God

I just pointed out, that a lot of people in the "Catholic System" do not really give a second thought to Purgatory, it was not the glue that binded me to the RCC nor was it the foundation of my faith or anything like that
it was just another doctrine
I did not really start to study my religion untill I left for university

as someone else in this thread pointed out, the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory either but their Church is held together just fine

 

[lismore]

Don't waste your time with things that do not matter any way. I would suggest focusing on salvation, grace and faith and love.

I agree.

As a former Catholic with many former Catholic relatives, nothing can exceed the joy and relief of receiving salvation in Jesus and the freedom from a works/law based system.

 

[KWCrazy]

According to surveys, Catholics read their Bibles the least of any religion. In the beginning it was even considered a sin for a layman to read the Bible. Over the years Catholics developed many rituals which are not in the Bible. Nonetheless, it is the things we have in common that unite us, not the differences in how we worship. Things like intercessors, purgatory and infant baptism may seem odd to us but it won't keep them or us out of Heaven. What matters is that Christ was born of the virgin Mary, was crucified for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Whether you believe Christ died on Thursday or Friday is meaningless. What matters is that He rose again and is seated at the right hand of the Father. It might be fun to tweak each other about our various practices, but whoever accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior will one day be with Him regardless of the denomination he follows.

 

[David Waffen]

I agree.

As a former Catholic with many former Catholic relatives, nothing can exceed the joy and relief of receiving salvation in Jesus and the freedom from a works/law based system.

It sounds like you did not understand Roman Catholicism. They believe that salvation is from Jesus. It is not a works/law system.