Baptists and the Virign Mary.

Alithis · May 30, 2015

and just to reassure everyone .. Quoting the 2nd commandment is NOT anti catholic hate speech lol .. it is quoting the Word of God .
me thinks someones true colors are being shown and if they do not like the 2nd commandment. perhaps they should return to posting in the catholic forum from whence they came and stop trying to convert baptists to the godless practices of praying to saints and worshiping mary .

hello MODS.. this is a good case for bringing back obvious denomination tags on user names .imo

Avid · May 30, 2015

Alithis said:
... this is a good case for bringing back obvious denomination tags on user names .imo

The WORD describing the "Faith" of the person posting is shown at the bottom of each label for each post. In the OLD format, it is at the bottom of what is printed on the RIGHT side of the header (across from the Avatar) for the person posting. In the NEW format, all that info is directly below the Avatar.

It is not an ICON, as it was in the old Site Software, it is just the name of the faith they identify with. I am sure more changes are coming, because other people have asked for the return of many of the ICONS shown in the old website software.

Avid · May 30, 2015

Alithis said:
... according to the scripture we are not instructed to have fellowship not unity with such .and this present drive for just such unity is in itself a falshood trying to coax a compromise in the name of unity .. but it is a false unity ,one that demands acceptance of "their ways" .. but does not require of them repentance and submittance to GOD

Here is where this whole thread was intended to take us. Baptists are expected to compromise with error in teaching and practice, but there is no expectation for repentance from the ones in error (praying and worshiping wrongly.)

Matthew 6
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6
9 ¶ After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Matthew 23
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Luke 6
12 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

Luke 11
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Acts 8
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

II Corinthians 13
7 ¶ Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

I Thessalonians 5
23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

II Timothy 4
16 ¶ At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

Here are some of the many times we are told to pray to God, or to God the Father. Maybe the people saying there is reason to pray to ANYONE ELSE might show scripture for that.

Avid · May 30, 2015

mikedsjr said:
You are absolutely correct that bashing RC is sin. It's certainly a sin to bring a false witness about the RC Christian too. The RC church doesn't teaches ot isn't a sin to pray to saints. However, there is not a Scriptural foundation. It's born out of their interpretation of early Christian Fathers. Am I not correct?

This post caused me some trouble, as I am not clear on your meaning. Could you please expound and clarify what you mean?

SaintJoeNow · May 30, 2015

Avid said:
It should be noted we are talking about a statue owned by the person in question. The accusation has been made that Baptists do as ISIS has been doing - going around to people's gathering places, and smashing their statues. It is not that Baptists are doing this. If, as was shown before, I was to buy a house that had such a thing, I would smash it. I would not come to your house, and smash something belonging to you. I trust you can see the difference.

Mary, being idolized by someone making a statue, and being prayed to (against the 2nd commandment - Exodus 20:4-6) is no different than any other subject of idolatry. The mother of Jesus is a person who knew this was not right, and when people came to her, she sent them to Jesus and stated, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." She initially came to her Son, and he rejected the whole idea of that. Maybe, He saw all this coming?!?!?!?

Mary tells us to go to Jesus, and obey Him, but that is not what a significant portion of this world's population is satisfied to do.

It would be interesting to know the context of the case you mentioned. I doubt a scripture or lesson was being taught, and the passage mentioned Mary, the mother of Jesus. Was it instead, that they were talking or teaching about something else, and you just brought that up?

I guess they forgot about all the people who were killed by long or quick torture in things such as burning at the stake for "heresy" when they refused to bow to the dictated doctrines of the Vatican during the dark ages and around the end of the dark ages when the light of the King James Bible finally dispelled the dark ages, and now the Catholic church pretends to be all benevolent, even though the recent Pope recognized the terrorist governed West Bank as a Palestinian state and awarded a known mass murderer of innocent women and children in multiple terrorist attacks, awarding him for being "an angel of peace". It's not Baptists who are similar to ISIS. The current Catholic Pope is in bed with them by being in bed with other Muslim terrorism organizations. They are all the same.

SaintJoeNow · May 30, 2015

Alithis said:
Yes i understand that to be the case also ..the mother ofgod and queen of heaven i consider to blasphemic titles.

"Queen of Heaven" is mentioned by God in the Old Testament as a false God He despises. I guess Catholics claim their Queen of Heaven is a different Queen of Heaven.

SaintJoeNow · May 30, 2015

Alithis said:
and just to reassure everyone .. Quoting the 2nd commandment is NOT anti catholic hate speech lol .. it is quoting the Word of God .
me thinks someones true colors are being shown and if they do not like the 2nd commandment. perhaps they should return to posting in the catholic forum from whence they came and stop trying to convert baptists to the godless practices of praying to saints and worshiping mary .

hello MODS.. this is a good case for bringing back obvious denomination tags on user names .imo

I thought this thread would have been closed a long time ago

Avid · May 30, 2015

Alithis said:
... those that say .".no my statue (or image or whatever) is not an idol " ..but then refuse to remove and cast it down . they first deny, then they refuse to repent ...

We all need to be sensitive to the correction of God. If at some point, we say or do something we should not, we should be ready to repent.

II Timothy 4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

We are not seeing a humble spirit, but the same arogance and implacable spirit that has accompanied this false doctrine any tme it is confronted with the truth of scripture.

SaintJoeNow · May 30, 2015

Avid said:
The WORD describing the "Faith" of the person posting is shown at the bottom of each label for each post. In the OLD format, it is at the bottom of what is printed on the RIGHT side of the header (across from the Avatar) for the person posting. In the NEW format, all that info is directly below the Avatar.

It is not an ICON, as it was in the old Site Software, it is just the name of the faith they identify with. I am sure more changes are coming, because other people have asked for the return of many of the ICONS shown in the old website software.

I want my big grinning face icon back

SaintJoeNow · May 30, 2015

I smell a thread closure coming

Avid · May 31, 2015

George95 said:
I hope you guys don't mind if I come in here and ask questions?

For example, I went to a Baptist school. As soon as Mary came up into any of the questions or discussion, the tide just changed to a super tight feeling if you guys get what I mean.

We do not mind a question that helps clarify the discussion. If you would, please let us know what is expected when people pray to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

This has been asked of others, and I am not aware of an answer being given. We are to think it is not wrong, but why would anyone do that at all? We see how Jesus felt about it in the scriptures. He rejected the idea of people going to His mother to influence Him. She saw that enough to say they should do as He commands.

tall73 · May 31, 2015

My understanding is that the veneration of Mary and many of the titles came about originally due to the discussions about the nature of Jesus in the time of the councils, etc.

Since Trinitarian and Christological formulas accepted Jesus as being divine AND human it was viewed as OK to portray Jesus in pictures, while the Father would usually not be portrayed. It was a statement of Jesus' taking on flesh.

Titles such as Theotokos (God bearer) are used in the East as well as by the Catholic church, and were more theological statements about the Divine nature of Christ than about Mary directly. The more common phrase in the west (Catholic and Anglican) is "mother of God". The point was to emphasize Jesus' being not just human, but human and Divine.

Other saints also began to be celebrated due to their willingness to die for the faith. Over time this practice developed into veneration and asking saints to pray for them.

Often times Catholics or Orthodox see asking a saint to pray for them similar to how protestants would view asking their friend or family member to say a prayer for them.

Since they believe in a "communion" of the saints, that the saints are still alive, and not dead, they feel that the saints can still pray for them, just as a friend or family member could.

Now having said all that, I really appreciate the Eastern Orthodox church and their history, but this veneration issue is one thing that keeps me from even considering joining an EO church. In practice veneration of icons (only two dimensional images in the EO, statues in the Catholic church) certainly does take on the flavor of idolatry to me.

And some of the titles they give to Mary on the Catholic radio network make me want to hurl. I respect Mary and think she was obedient. However, I would never kiss a picture, statue, etc. even if the notion was to honor the person it represents.

To me that does go against the command to not bow down to images.

So while I think that the original formulation of some of this came out of the process of defining who Jesus was, and honoring heroes of the faith, and did not intend idolatry, I would not participate.

I understand they make a distinction between veneration and worship. I have no issue with remembering faithful Christians of the past. However, acts of veneration towards an icon or statue I do not go for.

George95 · May 31, 2015

Avid said:
We do not mind a question that helps clarify the discussion. If you would, please let us know what is expected when people pray to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

This has been asked of others, and I am not aware of an answer being given. We are to think it is not wrong, but why would anyone do that at all? We see how Jesus felt about it in the scriptures. He rejected the idea of people going to His mother to influence Him. She saw that enough to say they should do as He commands.

Thanks Avid for replying to me.

So from what I can gather(I need to work on my Theology a bit more ) is that prayers to Mary are another way of praying. It's like asking a friend to pray for you.

With that being said, if any healing or miracle comes from a prayer to anyone, the power performing the miracle will be of God, since Mary nor Saints have power to do so.

I have a feeling I just didn't make sense lol.

George95 · May 31, 2015

tall73 said:
My understanding is that the veneration of Mary and many of the titles came about originally due to the discussions about the nature of Jesus in the time of the councils, etc.

Since Trinitarian and Christological formulas accepted Jesus as being divine AND human it was viewed as OK to portray Jesus in pictures, while the Father would usually not be portrayed. It was a statement of Jesus' taking on flesh.

Titles such as Theotokos (God bearer) are used in the East as well as by the Catholic church, and were more theological statements about the Divine nature of Christ than about Mary directly. The more common phrase in the west (Catholic and Anglican) is "mother of God". The point was to emphasize Jesus' being not just human, but human and Divine.

Other saints also began to be celebrated due to their willingness to die for the faith. Over time this practice developed into veneration and asking saints to pray for them.

Often times Catholics or Orthodox see asking a saint to pray for them similar to how protestants would view asking their friend or family member to say a prayer for them.

Since they believe in a "communion" of the saints, that the saints are still alive, and not dead, they feel that the saints can still pray for them, just as a friend or family member could.

Now having said all that, I really appreciate the Eastern Orthodox church and their history, but this veneration issue is one thing that keeps me from even considering joining an EO church. In practice veneration of icons (only two dimensional images in the EO, statues in the Catholic church) certainly does take on the flavor of idolatry to me.

And some of the titles they give to Mary on the Catholic radio network make me want to hurl. I respect Mary and think she was obedient. However, I would never kiss a picture, statue, etc. even if the notion was to honor the person it represents.

To me that does go against the command to not bow down to images.

So while I think that the original formulation of some of this came out of the process of defining who Jesus was, and honoring heroes of the faith, and did not intend idolatry, I would not participate.

I understand they make a distinction between veneration and worship. I have no issue with remembering faithful Christians of the past. However, acts of veneration towards an icon or statue I do not go for.

Very nice post. Regarding the titles of Mary used, while I refer to Mary as the Theotokos or the Mother of God, I just don't feel at ease when I hear Queen of Heaven, and more elevated titles like that.

twin1954 · May 31, 2015

When the angel called Mary blessed he said among women not above all other women. Veneration of Mary does the exact opposite to his saying.

George95 · May 31, 2015

twin1954 said:
When the angel called Mary blessed he said among women not above all other women. Veneration of Mary does the exact opposite to his saying.

Again please forgive me, I'm just trying to understand since I'm still shaky in my Theology. How exactly does it go against him if she is called blessed among women? She was called the favored one as well.

twin1954 · May 31, 2015

George95 said:
Again please forgive me, I'm just trying to understand since I'm still shaky in my Theology. How exactly does it go against him if she is called blessed among women? She was called the favored one as well.

She was favored by God among woman but not above other women to be the vessel through whom the Lord Jesus would come into this wicked world. Veneration of her is to place her above other women. Veneration of her makes her to be more than she was. She has no more influence with God than I do as she was a sinner saved by the grace of God in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.

As for praying to her as you would ask me to pray for you, we are never told in the Scriptures to pray to dead people nor to anyone other than to God. To pray to Mary, especially in the Rosary, is to seek her influence as though she has a special kind of acceptance that living saints, all believers, don't have.

SaintJoeNow · May 31, 2015

George95 said:
Thanks Avid for replying to me.

So from what I can gather(I need to work on my Theology a bit more ) is that prayers to Mary are another way of praying. It's like asking a friend to pray for you.

With that being said, if any healing or miracle comes from a prayer to anyone, the power performing the miracle will be of God, since Mary nor Saints have power to do so.

I have a feeling I just didn't make sense lol.

"miracles" are common in Pagan and Satanic circles as well as those ascribed to faith in the Queen of Heaven. "miracles" also happen in Voo Doo. There are many "psychic healers" in the world who have gained fame by the "miracles" that are seen to happen by or through them. Evil can appear to be beautiful, and it will appear beautiful in whatever form or religion is preferred by the people who are believing it is from God and not from evil. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and you can be sure he is extremely beautiful in doing so. "miracles" also occur in witchcraft, and then there's the miraculous supernatural powers of supposed "aliens" in "UFO's" pretending they are the masters of the universe and denying God is the Master over all.

For an excellent exposure of "miracles" from evil sources, healings, I recommend "The Beautiful Side of Evil" written by a lady who was deeply involved with psychic surgeons and witnessed many "miraculous" healings.

SaintJoeNow · May 31, 2015

George95 said:
Again please forgive me, I'm just trying to understand since I'm still shaky in my Theology. How exactly does it go against him if she is called blessed among women? She was called the favored one as well.

Jesus said there was not a man born of woman greater than John the Baptist. John was blessed among men and highly favored as well as Mary. They both were specially chosen for a special job, and that was a special honor. It in no way implies that either of those persons were anything more than mortal human beings, sinners who had no existence prior to the time that their sinful parents conceived them. Catholicism has ascribed equality with God to Mary, changing her into the Queen of Heaven. Mary of Catholicism is not Mary of the Bible. Mary was born in sin the same as you or me, she was a sinner the same as you and me. Praying to Mary is idolatry. Of course it is another way of praying. All praying in the Bible to anybody or anything other than God is despised by God as idolatry. Why Christians wanted to invent another way of praying and try to convince everybody that it's God's gift is a dark mystery. There is no darkness in God.

SaintJoeNow · May 31, 2015

George95 said:
Very nice post. Regarding the titles of Mary used, while I refer to Mary as the Theotokos or the Mother of God, I just don't feel at ease when I hear Queen of Heaven, and more elevated titles like that.

"Mother of God" implies superiority over or equality with God. This is a Catholic invention. God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. If you say Mary is the mother of God, then you are saying she is the mother of God the Father as well as the mother of God the Holy Ghost. It's making Mary into an idol before God. It's insane, really. Mary is my sister, God is my Father, and Mary is not my Father's Mother. Why Christians want to believe the Catholic Church when they say Mary is the Mother of God who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost and not only God the Son, baffles me. It's believing in mysticism which is not logical.

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