Baptists and the Virign Mary.

PrincetonGuy said:

When Roman Catholics speak or write about venerating objects of art or the Virgin Mary, they are very careful to avoid even the slightest suggestion that Catholics worship objects of art or the Virgin Mary. Perhaps we Baptists should be at least as careful as our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.

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the very use of the word veneration

veneration
vɛnəˈreɪʃ(ə)n/
noun:great respect; reverence

so again -depends what you define worship to be .
to consider a thing of high "worth " of high import .. to ascribe unto a thing or person an elevated level of importance and value ..is "worshiping " them .

folks do it with movies stars , sports stars ,sports teams ,public figures , royalty .
honoring an office and giving overt importance and elevated value are quite different .

idolizing and idolatry is done on so many levels be it shiney cars ,bling or statues of that which is created (like mary) .
in every culture and religion in the world .. bowing the head -praying - burning incense -bowing down -offering chants -making images and elevating them (poster & pictures on bedroom walls to gaze upon them) -is all openly considered to be "acts of worship .

it is only in Christianity that these acts are denied as acts of worship .. and excuse is made .
that is sad that, in this respect ..all the other religions are more truthful about what they are doing and do not pretend(walk in hypocrisy) that it is "something else " .when it is in truth .. 'worship"

rome is simply not being honest about it -plain and simple

Alithis said:

rome is simply not being honest about it -plain and simple

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This statement is false, and has been proven to be false in this very thread.

PrincetonGuy said:

This statement is false, and has been proven to be false in this very thread.

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that sentence is not the whole post it is a sentence out of context to whole post .
and no such thing has been proven ..

elevating some one , praying to them asking them to pray for them , having shrines to them , burning incense to them , including them in every prayer ,"hailing them " does not cease to be acts of giving worth(worship) just because the person doing it says .." no its not no its not .
all it proves is they are in denial .nothing more .

there is a huge chasm between maintaining unity and compromising truth .

Alithis said:

that sentence is not the whole post it is a sentence out of context to whole post .

and no such thing has been proven ..


elevating some one , praying to them asking them to pray for them , having shrines to them , burning incense to them , including them in every prayer ,"hailing them " does not cease to be acts ofgiving worth(worship) just because the person doing it says .." no its not no its not .

all it proves is they are in denial .nothing more .


there is a huge chasm between maintaining unity and compromising truth .

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Being respectful of others is NOT a sin. Praying to the saints and to the Virgin Mary is NOT a sin. Building memorials to those whom one loves is NOT a sin. Burning incense to those whom one loves is NOT a sin. To hail a person is NOT a sin. Furthermore, doing any or all of these things does NOT constitute worshipping anyone or anything in the sense that one worships God.

PrincetonGuy said:

Being respectful of others is NOT a sin. Praying to the saints and to the Virgin Mary is NOT a sin. Building memorials to those whom one loves is NOT a sin. Burning incense to those whom one loves is NOT a sin. To hail a person is NOT a sin. Furthermore, doing any or all of these things does NOT constitute worshiping anyone or anything in the sense that one worships God.

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yeah but that is merely an opinion and one maintained only by those that wont admit the truth of what they do. As i said before .in every other culture and religion all such activity is simply and honestly classed as "acts of worship " ..ONLY Christianity refuses to admit it .only in Christendom are we dishonest in respect to what we give worth to .

and praying to Mary and the saint is faithless and without faith it is impossible to please God .
you see if we believe that God is all knowing and omnipotent and omnipresent etc ,then we know he can hear our prayers no problem at all .. so when we then assume we must ask another spirit (for dead people are spirits no longer inhabiting a body ) then we are praying to other spirits (other gods-for "ye are gods [spirits])and not the Holy Spirit of God . And we would be doing so because we do not believe God is truly omnipresent .. the action is faithless and an utter contradiction of faith and beleif . one thing is said with the lips and actions opose what the lips are saying .. and it all comes about from the elevation of the carnal born mary to a position beyond her natural station of mere mortal .
its all linked by imposing the teachings of men OVER the word of God which is written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and is profitable for teaching reproof and instruction in righteousness . And within ALL the instructions on righteousness we are NEVER taught nor instructed by Scripture to pray to any other but the lord ,not ever .thus the teaching does not even originate in God ,but in the spirit of this world .
And through out scripture men are warned ,reproved and rebuked for "seeking direction or council or help from any one other then God himself .

its sound soo nicey pie to say its for unity for peace .. but when we cast of plain simply truth in the Lord Jesus to establish peace we will only get a false carnal temporary peace and risk leading many astray .for men must be "converted " not integrated .. no where does the Gospel tell us to be integrated, ..merging truth and half truth in sugar coated compromises -but to be "converted " .
it is a most unloving act to compromise the truth to appease men .. that is called being pleasers of men .we should endeavor always to please only God in faith..

RaylightI said:

I understand the Baptist understanding and belief about the Virgin Mary. But what I don't understand is some of the hostility toward the Virgin Mary from some baptists and other Evangelical protestant christians.

Does the Baptist theology justify the hostility and sometimes the phobia that is among some Baptists toward the Virgin Mary ?

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Hi raylight,

I don't have any hostility towards Mary, but I do abhor those who use inflammatory words in their questions. Your real issue was explained in post #3. You explain that you define hostile as being a reluctance to worship, bow down to, or pray to a dead woman. You really should have just asked that in your OP. This attitude is similar to those involved in same sex relationships that claim that christians hate them. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they hate you. Just because baptists are generally more careful about who they will worship, bow down to or pray to, doesn't make us hostile.

God bless you
In Christ, Ted

PrincetonGuy said:

When Roman Catholics speak or write about venerating objects of art or the Virgin Mary, they are very careful to avoid even the slightest suggestion that Catholics worship objects of art or the Virgin Mary. Perhaps we Baptists should be at least as careful as our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.

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Basically an idol, is something that gets in the way of worshipping God. From hear many Catholics it looks like they put more emphasis on Mary than they do on God and that is rather worrisome.

I think Catholics are hostile toward Baptists much more than they can invent Baptist hostility against the woman God used in preparing Himself a body to die in. Whenever I get a piece of property with idols on it, I destroy those idols if they are Catholic Mary Idols or American Indian idols or whatever. The Mother/Child religion of idolatry is not limited to Catholicism. The Mary idol is not exclusively Catholic. It's figurative of the ancient worship of Nimrod and his mother in ancient Babylon, and is portrayed as Osiris in Egyptian idolatry. Many Christians including myself believe the Catholic church (not the Christians in the Catholic Church), the powerful religious institution with all of it's corruption in seeking control over the world is in reality the Great harlot of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The resemblance of that woman in Revelation compared to the idol of "Mary" in Catholicism is something to consider when looking at the condition of the Catholic Church, it's Mother of God idolatry, and entanglements in world affairs.

classicalhero said:

Basically an idol, is something that gets in the way of worshipping God. From hear many Catholics it looks like they put more emphasis on Mary than they do on God and that is rather worrisome.

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Did you mean to write, “Basically, an idol is something that gets in the way of worshipping God. Judging from what I hear from many Catholics, it looks like they put more emphasis on Mary than they do on God, and that is rather worrisome.”?

Based upon what I read in their posts, I see that radicalized independent Baptists put more emphasis upon bashing Roman Catholics than they do upon worshiping and serving God. Am I to infer from these non-cognizant “Baptists” that Baptists behave more like infidels than they do like Christians? No, of course not! In every faith group we find faithful practitioners, and others who are living in the twilight zone.

PrincetonGuy said:

Being respectful of others is NOT a sin. Praying to the saints and to the Virgin Mary is NOT a sin. Building memorials to those whom one loves is NOT a sin. Burning incense to those whom one loves is NOT a sin. To hail a person is NOT a sin. Furthermore, doing any or all of these things does NOT constitute worshipping anyone or anything in the sense that one worships God.

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Actually prying to anyone but God is a sin.

We have each tried to say this in our own way.

I believe Mary was a very special woman, but not a deity.

When we read the Bible all of us are astounded by the faith and commitment of people who God used in a mighty way.

Luke: 1. 28. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. -
I do not worship or pray to Mary,but I do love this passage

The rosery prayer changes the words a bit,so I disagree with its use.

twin1954 said:

No it means that is the result of sin but not the penalty. Physical death is due to the corrupt nature of the body. It is subject to decay and sickness and age because of the sin of Adam but the penalty of sin is spiritual death. How long did Adam live after the Fall? He lived 930 years in all but we are not sure how many years he lived after the fall but we do know that he was 130 when Seth was born so we can go from there. Now as you said God told Adam that he would die in the day that he fell. He did of course. He died spiritually. That was part of the penalty of sin the second death in eternal damnation being the other part. Exactly. Again true. True as well but her death was not the penalty for her sin it was the natural outcome of sin in physical reality. Christ bore the penalty for her sin.

Not splitting hairs just being precise in how things are spoken and understood. Your words betray your theology and lack of understanding in the Gospel. What you have said has caused many to have no peace because they think that even though Christ bore the penalty for their sin they still have to bear it as well. For the believer there is no sting in physical death because it isn't a penalty it is a reward.

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1 Corinthians 15:55-56King James Version (KJV)
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Praise God!

now faith said:

I believe Mary was a very special woman, but not a deity.

When we read the Bible all of us are astounded by the faith and commitment of people who God used in a mighty way.

Luke: 1. 28. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. -
I do not worship or pray to Mary,but I do love this passage

The rosery prayer changes the words a bit,so I disagree with its use.

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as well as it being vain repetition

PrincetonGuy said:

Being respectful of others is NOT a sin. Praying to the saints and to the Virgin Mary is NOT a sin. Building memorials to those whom one loves is NOT a sin. Burning incense to those whom one loves is NOT a sin. To hail a person is NOT a sin. Furthermore, doing any or all of these things does NOT constitute worshipping anyone or anything in the sense that one worships God.

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Gotta tell you that I've NEVER heard of anyone who says he's a BAPTIST that believes like you! Are you sure you're not a RC pretending to be a Baptist on here? Sure sounds like it to me. Just sayin.

baptist4life said:

Gotta tell you that I've NEVER heard of anyone who says he's a BAPTIST that believes like you! Are you sure you're not a RC pretending to be a Baptist on here? Sure sounds like it to me. Just sayin.

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Perhaps you have never met an educated Baptist—there are not very many of us. I am not a Roman Catholic and I have never been one. Indeed, I have attended a Mass only three times.

By the way, I did not get my information from http://www.catholic.com/ ; I got my information from a book called, “The Holy Bible”.

Well, I stand by what I said. You may claim to be whatever you like, but you're the most un-Baptist Baptist I've ever seen.

PrincetonGuy said:

Perhaps you have never met an educated Baptist—there are not very many of us. I am not a Roman Catholic and I have never been one. Indeed, I have attended a Mass only three times.

By the way, I did not get my information from http://www.catholic.com/ ; I got my information from a book called, “The Holy Bible”.

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youve got to be kidding ? is this a wind up ?

a baptist who calls themselves "educated because they pray to another spirit ( dead people who have left their bodies and are awaiting the putting on of their new body) are spirits (-spirits of the departed ) praying to them or asking them to pray for us ,is nothing more then contacting the dead, it is quite direct and unambiguously sinful

Alithis said:

youve got to be kidding ?

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I had to "Show Ignored Content" to see what you all were responding to. Well, I ain't never been edumacated, so I don't believe that stuff he was a-sayin'...

I like knowing you and a few others were not taken by it either!

Alithis said:

youve got to be kidding ? is this a wind up ?

a baptist who calls themselves "educated because they pray to another spirit ( dead people who have left their bodies and are awaiting the putting on of their new body) are spirits (-spirits of the departed ) praying to them or asking them to pray for us ,is nothing more then contacting the dead, it is quite direct and unambiguously sinful

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This sounds like the Americanized Hinduism/paganism that is creeping into many Baptist churches through the teachings of groups like the Acts 29 Network, the Emerging Church. There are some shocking things being accepted in some Baptist circles. Part of it is moving toward ecumenicalism in which all faiths are united. The driving force of it is a spirituality which is independent of the word of God claiming to be from God's spirit. It finds common ground where Catholics, Batpists, and Muslims can be united. The one world religion that is going to be imposed in the future is this kind of stuff in full bloom....designed to be inclusive and non-offensive for all religions.