Baptists (and others)-- Wives submit to husbands? Wives and husbands equal partners?

[Paidiske]

If the husband leads the family not in his own interests, but based on the interests of the whole family, and the wife does not want to obey him, then there are 2 options: 1) he does this out of lust for power and then, perhaps, the wife is right; 2) he does it out of love, and his wife, out of pride, does not want to obey.

Or 3, his wife wants to build a marriage of equal partnership, where both can contribute of their best in leadership, rather than leadership being confined to one person, while the other is prevented from contributing.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Or 3, his wife wants to build a marriage of equal partnership, where both can contribute of their best in leadership, rather than leadership being confined to one person, while the other is prevented from contributing.

But how is this possible? It seems to me that situations often arise when someone has to give in. The Gospel describes only one occasion when Jesus Christ yielded: it was when the Blessed Virgin Mary asked Him to help with wine at a wedding. Although Jesus protested that His time had not yet come, he relented and turned water into wine.

But in most cases He says: only these 3 apostles will go with me to Tabor. Others might object: why do only these guys always walk around? Or one of the 3 apostles could have said: I don’t want to, go today without me. But no one objected to Jesus Christ. He said - they did it.

None of them said to Jesus Christ: now you will do what I said.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

The Holy Fathers of the Orthodox Church wrote that pride is the most hated sin for God.

Here's what the Bible says about pride:

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
(James 4:6)

Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord; you can guarantee that he will not go unpunished.
(Proverbs 16:5)

... nevertheless, as you submit to one another, clothe yourselves with humility, for God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
(1 Pet. 5, 5)

Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain: [loves the spirit that lives in us to the point of jealousy]? But grace gives all the more; That is why it is said: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God; Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
(James 4, 5-7)

...you, in your arrogance, are vainglorious: all such vanity is evil.
(James 4:16)

...whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
(Matt. 23:12)

And you, Capernaum, who ascended to heaven, will be cast down to hell...
(Matt. 11:23)

The Monk Paisios of Athos said: “The husband, says the Holy Scripture, “is the head of the wife” (Eph. 5:23). That is, God determined that the husband should rule over his wife. The rule of a wife over her husband is an insult to God. First, God created Adam, who said about the wife: “Behold, now bone is of my bones and flesh of my flesh” (Gen. 2:23), the Gospel says, a wife must fear her husband—that is, she must honor him. And the husband must love his wife (Eph. 5). :33).In love there is respect. In respect there is love. What I honor, I love. That is, love and respect are not different things: they are the same thing. .
However, people shy away from this harmony of God and do not understand the meaning of the gospel words. So the husband, misinterpreting the Gospel, says to his wife: “You should be afraid of me!” You're an eccentric person, but if she was afraid of you, she wouldn't even marry you! And some women say their own: “Why should a wife be afraid of her husband? No, I cannot accept this. What kind of religion is this? Discrimination!" But look what the Holy Scripture says: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”7 The fear of God is respect for God, reverence, spiritual modesty. This fear puts you in awe, it is something sacred.
The equality with men that some women strive for can only be justified to a certain extent. Today, women work and vote on an equal basis with men. Therefore, they have become infected with some kind of unhealthy spirit and think that they are equal to men [in everything]. Of course, the souls of men and women are the same. But if the husband does not love his wife, and the wife does not honor her husband, then discord arises in the family. In the old days, it was considered a bad thing if a wife contradicted her husband. And now an arrogant, cheeky spirit has appeared. How wonderful it was in those days! "

 

[Paidiske]

But how is this possible?

I don't understand why anyone would think it is not. It's as if people can't believe two people can actually live and work together in partnership and harmony, without one controlling the other.

It seems to me that situations often arise when someone has to give in.

Only if you see every situation as holding only two possibilities; what I want and what they want. And if one wins, another loses. But in fact, every situation holds many possibilities, and generally most situations can be navigated with the needs of both being met, and the values of both being respected.

None of them said to Jesus Christ: now you will do what I said.

I do hope most husbands realise they are actually not the messiah, and God in the flesh.

St. Paisios might have thought it was wonderful when a wife never dared contradict a husband. I suspect he has a rather unrealistic sense of how that was experienced by all concerned.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I don't understand why anyone would think it is not. It's as if people can't believe two people can actually live and work together in partnership and harmony, without one controlling the other.

How then to behave in controversial moments? If both spouses strongly disagree with each other on a certain issue? Jesus Christ said to the apostles: if you do not agree, then you can leave, just as others left Me. But a husband and wife cannot do this, because there is a commandment to be together.

Only if you see every situation as holding only two possibilities; what I want and what they want. And if one wins, another loses. But in fact, every situation holds many possibilities, and generally most situations can be navigated with the needs of both being met, and the values of both being respected.

Here I agree that we need to look for an option where both sides win. Stephen Covey wrote in his best-selling book, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, that if one side always wins and the other always loses, then confrontation is inevitable, with both sides trying to make the other lose (even if I lose). This is true both in wars between states and in conflicts between people. There is a compromise option here, where both sides gain partly and lose partly, but there is an even better option when both sides only gain. We must strive to find such an option.

I do hope most husbands realise they are actually not the messiah, and God in the flesh.

It's right. Unfortunately, there are even cases where women are more spiritually developed than men. But here’s the paradox: It’s the spiritually developed women who submit to their husbands for Christ’s sake, while the less spiritual women want to lead. Such women always know better than their husbands and are also right in all cases of life and do not admit their mistakes.

St. Paisios might have thought it was wonderful when a wife never dared contradict a husband. I suspect he has a rather unrealistic sense of how that was experienced by all concerned.

It all depends on the motive. If a wife does not dare to contradict because her husband is a tyrant at home, then this is terrible. But if the wife walked with God all the time and did not dare to contradict her kind and meek husband, knowing that God was pleased with her obedience, then this is a different matter. The Apostle wrote:

1st Epistle of the Apostle Peter (1 Peter 3:1-2,7):
Likewise, you, wives, obey your husbands, so that those of them who do not obey the word will be won without a word by the lives of their wives when they see your pure, God-fearing lives.
Likewise, you, husbands, treat your wives prudently, as with the weakest vessel, showing them honor, as joint heirs of the grace of life, so that there is no hindrance in your prayers.

Apostle Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 7:3):
The husband show his wife due favor; likewise is a wife to her husband.

Apostle Paul's letter to the Colossians (Col.3:18-19):
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

Apostle Paul's letter to the Ephesians (Eph.5:22-33):
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the Church, and He is the Savior of the body. But just as the Church submits to Christ, so do wives to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church.

 

[Paidiske]

How then to behave in controversial moments? If both spouses strongly disagree with each other on a certain issue? Jesus Christ said to the apostles: if you do not agree, then you can leave, just as others left Me. But a husband and wife cannot do this, because there is a commandment to be together.

There's not only one right answer for decision making. But how to behave? Love one another. Not, one person automatically gets a trump card for every time the discussion gets difficult.

It’s the spiritually developed women who submit to their husbands for Christ’s sake, while the less spiritual women want to lead.

A completely unfounded claim. And besides, leadership can be exercised in a number of ways; some of them not at all incompatible with submission. So...

But if the wife walked with God all the time and did not dare to contradict her kind and meek husband, knowing that God was pleased with her obedience, then this is a different matter.

I am not at all sure that God is pleased with a wife never contradicting a husband, or believing that this is what God requires. That goes well beyond anything in Scripture.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Ten years ago, I read a sermon by an Orthodox Russian priest about how he witnessed inappropriate behavior of a woman. It was already an elderly couple. And so the wife had such a desire to contradict her husband that even where it did not matter, she did the opposite. For example, a bus pulls up and opens two doors. It makes no difference to them which doors they go through. But when this elderly woman sees her husband going to one door, she demonstratively goes to another door. The husband is forced to follow her. Or they are waiting for transport and there are two benches. The husband sat down on one and invites his wife to sit next to him. She defiantly goes to another bench, forcing her husband to get up and follow her. And he says that it was very painful for him to watch this elderly couple, how a woman humiliates her husband in public (in Russia it is considered humiliating for a man to be henpecked).

 

[ValeriyK2022]

There's not only one right answer for decision making. But how to behave? Love one another. Not, one person automatically gets a trump card for every time the discussion gets difficult.

These are common beautiful phrases about love. Give a specific example.

A completely unfounded claim. And besides, leadership can be exercised in a number of ways; some of them not at all incompatible with submission. So...

Of course, the best type of leadership is the ability to find options every time that would give a win to both sides. But this is not always possible.

At the same time, the holy fathers of the Orthodox Church write that there is a root of sinful passions - self-love, from which branches grow - sinful passions (they are divided into 7-8 divisions: gluttony, lustful passion, anger, love of money, sadness, despondency, vanity and pride ). And these branches are cut off from the root when a person subordinates his will to another, an elder: children to their parents, the wife to her husband, the husband to his presbyter, etc.

I am not at all sure that God is pleased with a wife never contradicting a husband, or believing that this is what God requires. That goes well beyond anything in Scripture.

It doesn't say everything, щтдн that which has no sin. Jesus Christ said that He is humble because He obeys the Heavenly Father. He also calls us to be humble, that is, obedient. When a person obeys an elder, he shows humility, which pleases God, and when he does not obey, he shows pride. God said that people should not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but Eve showed pride and decided that she could disobey, because she saw with her own eyes that the fruit was pleasant to look at, looked tasty and gave knowledge. “Why obey God?” - thinks Eve. This is pride. Adam followed her - and this is also pride. But Jesus obeyed the Heavenly Father - and showed humility.

The Most Pure Virgin Mary showed her humility by obeying God. And for God's sake she obeyed Joseph. Please note that God did not appear to the Most Pure Virgin Mary, but appeared to Joseph and told him to take the Child and His Mother and flee to Egypt. If it were the other way around, then Joseph would have been forced to obey the Virgin Mary, but He wanted her to show humility and obey Joseph.

How did people sin? Eve listened to the devil, Adam listened to Eve. How did God save people? On the contrary: the Virgin Mary obeyed God and obeyed Joseph, Joseph also obeyed God, Jesus also obeyed Heavenly Father. Humility lies in obedience and submission to elders. And when the younger ones force the older ones to obey them, this is pride. The younger ones do not obey the elders, the elders do not obey God and complete discord ensues.

 

[Paidiske]

These are common beautiful phrases about love. Give a specific example.

Of a vague hypothetical? I think your expectation is a bit unreasonable, there.

At the same time, the holy fathers of the Orthodox Church write that there is a root of sinful passions - self-love, from which branches grow - sinful passions (they are divided into 7-8 divisions: gluttony, lustful passion, anger, love of money, sadness, despondency, vanity and pride ). And these branches are cut off from the root when a person subordinates his will to another, an elder: children to their parents, the wife to her husband, the husband to his presbyter, etc.

Hmm. I think there's some truth to that, and also there are some problems with that, if it is taken as an absolute without any nuance. Self love is not always wrong, and submission is not always healthy.

He also calls us to be humble, that is, obedient.

Obedience and humility are related, but not the same thing. It's possible to be humble but not obedient. It's also possible to be obedient but not humble.

If it were the other way around, then Joseph would have been forced to obey the Virgin Mary, but He wanted her to show humility and obey Joseph.

This is complete speculation. The text says nothing like this.

... and complete discord ensues.

Marriage as a partnership of equals is not "complete discord."

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Of a vague hypothetical? I think your expectation is a bit unreasonable, there.

Hmm. I think there's some truth to that, and also there are some problems with that, if it is taken as an absolute without any nuance. Self love is not always wrong, and submission is not always healthy.

Obedience and humility are related, but not the same thing. It's possible to be humble but not obedient. It's also possible to be obedient but not humble.

This is complete speculation. The text says nothing like this.

Marriage as a partnership of equals is not "complete discord."

You give me beautiful words about love, and I give you specific sad examples. Yes, if everyone always acted out of love, then there would be no need for commandments. The commandments are given because people, even Christians, are not inclined to love God and their neighbor and should have beacons that show how much they are going astray.

Above I gave an example that a Russian priest told about an elderly couple he saw at a public transport stop.

Seven years ago another friend of mine witnessed such a scene. An older woman tells a younger woman how she uses ultimatums to force her husband to obey. He didn't want to drive her to the beach. As a manipulation, she used the fact that this is not just a desire, but she needs this to improve her health. Although that beach was common (male and female) and according to Orthodox canons it is considered a great sin to undress on this beach (Orthodox canons even excommunicate such a Christian from communion of the Body and Blood of Christ for some time). And that evil woman says that she managed to find her husband’s weak point and deliver an ultimatum so that he obeyed. It’s like in a war: if you don’t give in, we will bomb your peaceful cities and power plants. And what kind of love is this? She not only boastfully talks about how she manipulates her husband with threats, but also teaches the young woman to do the same. And the young woman’s husband listens to this and cannot do anything either. So what to do here? There is no commandment to fear your wife; on the contrary, there is a commandment to obey God rather than your wife. The wife intimidates her husband into submission.

When my acquaintance had heard enough of these conversations between old and young women and looked at their unfortunate husbands, he remembered the words of the Apostle to Christ that it might be better not to marry.

This is what St. Paisios of Athos meant when he said that an insolent, cheeky spirit had appeared. Wives not only are not afraid, not only do they not obey, but they are already intimidating their husbands in public, without being ashamed of anyone.

 

[Paidiske]

Wives not only are not afraid, not only do they not obey, but they are already intimidating their husbands in public, without being ashamed of anyone.

But you speak as if this is the only alternative to one-sided submission. It is not. It is quite possible to have a partnership of equals in which this kind of behaviour never takes place.

 

[tall73]

Regarding roles, as was spelled out in the large post on the creation material earlier, both husband and wife are made in God's image. Both share in the commands to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and in dominion over the earth.

The same post spelled out indications of headship, even before sin. And the NT texts affirm headship.

In regards to the role of wife, both the text, and biology, indicate a nurturing role for the wife in the family, with a focus on the home, and children.

Titus 2:1-8
1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
6 Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded, 7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, 8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you. (NKJV)

1 Timothy 5:14
14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. (NKJV)

Psa 131:2 But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother; like a weaned child is my soul within me

Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

Isa 49:15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.

1Th_2:7 But we were gentle among you, like a nursing mother taking care of her own children.

The curse related to Eve, following transgression also relates to this role of the wife, in bearing children. This role was already defined, as part of the command to be fruitful and multiply, but now would be more difficult due to sin.

Genesis 3:16
16 To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.” (NKJV)

That is not to say that women did not do other work, besides that related to children and the home. We see descriptions of such work as well, for instance in Proverbs 31:

Proverbs 31:13-28
13 She seeks wool and flax,
And willingly works with her hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
She brings her food from afar.
15 She also rises while it is yet night,
And provides food for her household,
And a portion for her maidservants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
From her profits she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength,
And strengthens her arms.
18 She perceives that her merchandise is good,
And her lamp does not go out by night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hand holds the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor,
Yes, she reaches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of snow for her household,
For all her household is clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes tapestry for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies sashes for the merchants.
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;
She shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,
And on her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She watches over the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and call her blessed;
Her husband also, and he praises her: (NKJV)

Moreover, just as the role of children changes over time, so the role of a wife changes over time. This emphasis on nurturing of children is no longer as prominent for the older women, who take on more of a teaching role for the younger women, etc. per the text above in Titus.

We also see that those such as Lydia engaged in their own business. As she appears to have been unmarried, and is said to be the head of her own household, she would obviously have different roles, with no husband, or children, etc., but is still seen to be serving the Lord.

I Corinthians 7 speaks about those who have a gift to remain unmarried, and who can focus on pleasing the Lord.

But the text also indicates that one has one gift, one the other, and most are called to the vocation of marriage and family.


Both husband and wife are involved with disciplining children, and children are commanded to obey both.

Husbands in particular are encouraged to discipline, and held to account for the manner of discipline:

1Sa 3:12 On that day I will fulfill against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end.
1Sa 3:13 And I declare to him that I am about to punish his house forever, for the iniquity that he knew, because his sons were blaspheming God, and he did not restrain them.

(as was noted, this involves multiple roles, with high priest and father, but the father aspect is emphasized in this text).

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Psa 103:13 As a father shows compassion to his children, so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.

Col 3:21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.

Eph 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Heb 2:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

Th 2:11 For you know how, like a father with his children,
1Th 2:12 we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.

We see texts speaking of the father setting the tone for the whole family.

Jos 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Jer 35:18 But to the house of the Rechabites Jeremiah said, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Because you have obeyed the command of Jonadab your father and kept all his precepts and done all that he commanded you,
Jer 35:19 therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Jonadab the son of Rechab shall never lack a man to stand before me.”

Acts 10:1-2
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always (NKJV)

Acts 18:8
8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized. (NKJV)

1 Timothy 3:2-5
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?) (NKJV)

The exception seems to be those households where single women head the household, and have a similar role in setting the tone.

Acts 16:14-15
14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us. (NKJV)

 

[tall73]

This is complete speculation. The text says nothing like this.

Marriage as a partnership of equals is not "complete discord."

But the text does not say marriage is a "partnership of equals" either. In the case of Joseph being warned, it is not pointed out in the text. We could speculate, but it is not clear.

But in regards to headship, it IS stated.

It speaks of submission, headship, etc. and we see indications of this throughout the text.

I certainly agree that couples who are walking in the Spirit will have many instances where they are on the same page, and agreement is often the norm. There is no need for commands, submission, etc., but agreement.

And as mentioned, we can certainly yield our will for the sake of the other.

But the text does still speak of headship, and the husband is seen to have a role of setting the tone for the family.

You have not posted to address the various indications of headship in the creation account material post, and you have already admitted mutual submission is possible even in unequal relationships. I don't see how you are coming to this notion of a "partnership of equals" in the text. It states something else.

 

[Paidiske]

Regarding roles, ....

I didn't see anything in your post about the actual dynamic of headship/submission and what that means for roles, decision making, power sharing (or not) etc.

 

[Paidiske]

But the text does not say marriage is a "partnership of equals" either.

In some ways, it does. Equality is stressed, mutuality is stressed, reciprocity is stressed.

But my point to the PP was simply that we do not have to choose between two options of controlling hierarchy and "complete discord." There are other possibilities.

But the text does still speak of headship, and the husband is seen to have a role of setting the tone for the family.

Is that it? Is that what headship means to you; "setting the tone"? What does that mean in practical terms?

I don't see how you are coming to this notion of a "partnership of equals" in the text.

Because I ground my understanding of the marriage dynamic in submitting to one another.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

But you speak as if this is the only alternative to one-sided submission. It is not. It is quite possible to have a partnership of equals in which this kind of behaviour never takes place.

You keep talking about some kind of alternative that does not contradict Holy Scripture, but you haven’t given a single example.

Please give an example of a real-life family that:
1) the family must be Christian;
2) the family should be happy in their relationships with each other;
3) so that there is no hierarchy in it, there is no main or senior person.

 

[Paidiske]

You keep talking about some kind of alternative that does not contradict Holy Scripture, but you haven’t given a single example.

Please give an example of a real-life family that:
1) the family must be Christian;
2) the family should be happy in their relationships with each other;
3) so that there is no hierarchy in it, there is no main or senior person.

I don't know whom I could point to that you would know. I mean, my family is like that, and most Christian families I know are like that, but it's not like you know us. And as for public figures, who knows how happy (or equal) they really are in private?

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I don't know whom I could point to that you would know. I mean, my family is like that, and most Christian families I know are like that, but it's not like you know us. And as for public figures, who knows how happy (or equal) they really are in private?

Your family, where you grew up or where you married?
Is this family Christian, happy and without hierarchy?

 

[Paidiske]

Your family, where you grew up or where you married?
Is this family Christian, happy and without hierarchy?

Oh, not growing up. That was neither particularly Christian, nor particularly happy!

No, I meant my family now. Christian, happy, and without hierarchy.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Oh, not growing up. That was neither particularly Christian, nor particularly happy!

No, I meant my family now. Christian, happy, and without hierarchy.

And what do you do if, for example, you and your husband have different wishes regarding spending a day off?