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Baptists and Futurism

Bluelion

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Hi job8,

Based on that definition, then I would be comfortable with anyone saying that I am a dispensationalist. I believe that all Scripture, including prophecy is real, literal, historical and factual. However, as to what you claim that dispensationalists recognize, I'm not so much in agreement with that. So, am I or am I not a dispensationalist. I do agree that the Scriptures are true, literal, historical and factual, but when I read them as such I'm not necessarily convicted on some of the things that you believe the true, literal, historical and factual Scriptures reveal. One question that comes to my mind in the passage of Ezekiel that you posted is that it is a conditional command. God tells Ezekiel to describe the temple to the people of Israel that they may be ashamed of their sin. He then tells him that 'if' they do become ashamed of their sin, 'then' he is to make known to them the requirements for building the structure. As far as I can recall, Israel never did this.

If Ezekiel did as the Lord told him, and waited for them to be ashamed of their sin, I don't believe the Scriptures recount that there ever was any godly shame in Israel. Now, you may well say, "Well, that's because it foretells of a future Israel, but that doesn't seem to be what God is telling Ezekiel. My understanding is that He was telling Ezekiel in the 6th or 7th century BC, when he was a prophet in Israel, to do that then. Ezekiel was a prophet who lived in the days of Babylon going out and destroying the city of Jerusalem and laying siege against its inhabitants. Thus he says that this vision was like the one in which God came to destroy the city. Now God is telling him to tell the people about this new temple and 'if' they are ashamed of their sin, then give them the plans to build the temple and the gates. I rather imagine that it never got that far and it doesn't give a clue that 'if' they weren't ashamed of their sin, then He would have the temple built at a later time.

However, we do know that a later temple was built and if it wasn't built to these specifications then God wouldn't be beholden to be there always with Israel as He says He will be if the temple that He describes is built. Lastly, we do know that the 'prince' did visit the temple. There are several accounts of Jesus being in the temple. Did he enter through the proper gate? Or, because it wasn't the temple that God had commanded to be built, if Israel became ashamed of their sin, did it matter?

So, I'm not completely convicted that this tells of some future temple to be built many centuries later at the return of Jesus as much as it is the command for a particular temple to be built when Israel returned to its land, but because of its continued unfaithfulness to God, wasn't ever built in that prescribed manner. There is even some evidence that a very, very large portion of the Israelites never returned to Israel even when they were released from their captivity in Babylon. We do know that Nehemiah did and with a fairly large number that took on the job of rebuilding Jerusalem and then later the temple, but I have seen some historical accounts that, of the overall number of Israelites who had lived in Israel and Jerusalem before the Babylonian conquest, most did not return. This alone would have been evidence to God that they were still not ashamed of their sin and desirous to be in their land with Him.

All of the major prophets were fairly contemporaries of each other. Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah all lived within 100 years or so of each other. It is claimed that Ezekiel lived from 622-570 BC. Isaiah lived 740-681 BC. He was the first of the major prophets we find in the Scriptures. Jeremiah lived app. 650-570. Daniel, while in captivity in Babylon, mentions having gained understanding about the length of time of their exile from the writings of Jeremiah.

So, again, I'm not convicted that Ezekiel was writing of some long future temple.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
sorry I don't mean to get interrupt or get in the middle, But my understanding of the future temple comes from revelation. It says the Jews will return to the land and once again offer up animal offerings to God, in fact they are preparing for this right now even breeding the Red Heffer. In order for this to happen there must be a 3rd temple. Also it is written that the anit christ will stand in the temple and declare he is God and set about a statue which is the abomination that brings desolation. Some say this happen already with the statue of ZeusI believe, It said that the people who destroy the temple the second time will be the people the anti christ comes from, the final anti christ. I get the third temple from revelations after understanding Daniel.
 
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JM

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Hi job8,

Based on that definition, then I would be comfortable with anyone saying that I am a dispensationalist. I believe that all Scripture, including prophecy is real, literal, historical and factual.

Ah, the Futurist sleight of hand. Beware. All schools lay claim to reading prophecy in a "real, literal, historical and factual" manner. I've already from Rev. 1.1 that we are to interpret the real and literal meaning found in the things "signified" to the angel. What we have is a pretend literalism in Dispensationalism. For example, Hal Lindsey thought the locus in Revelation were helicopters.

So, again, I'm not convicted that Ezekiel was writing of some long future temple.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Ted, a third physical Temple offering bloody sacrifices is blasphemous. Christ put an end to all that. Instead of point unbelieving Jews to a physical Temple and sacrifices for their sin (which it states in Ezekiel very clearly) we point them to Jesus Christ alone.

A thread title A Third Temple is a Slap Across Christ's Face...

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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miamited

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Hi Bluelion,

I too, believe that Israel will work to build another temple. After all, as you say, there are plans already in the works, but they are waiting for the land on which they believe it must be built. Although, I'm not sure that God is asking them to do it. I'm just not particularly convicted that this passage in Ezekiel is referring to some distant future temple. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this particular passage does seem to be conditional on Israel's shame for their sin. However, I also don't think that God is going to live forever in a temple built by the hands of men as per the Scriptures and I honestly can't imagine that God would reinstitute the animal sacrificial system since we know that the blood of animals does not take away sin. That has been done once and for all through the blood of Jesus.

This is yet another reason why I believe the passage to be speaking of the time in which it was written. There really isn't any need for animals to be sacrificed for the sins of man now, but in the days of Ezekiel that was still God's command for handling sin. Had Israel been contrite and ashamed for their sin and had Israel welcomed in the Prince to come, a lot of history would be different and God may very well have lived forever with Israel upon the land that He had given them.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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JM

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Hi Bluelion,

I too, believe that Israel will work to build another temple. After all, as you say, there are plans already in the works, but they are waiting for the land on which they believe it must be built. Although, I'm not sure that God is asking them to do it. I'm just not particularly convicted that this passage in Ezekiel is referring to some distant future temple. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this particular passage does seem to be conditional on Israel's shame for their sin. However, I also don't think that God is going to live forever in a temple built by the hands of men as per the Scriptures and I honestly can't imagine that God would reinstitute the animal sacrificial system since we know that the blood of animals does not take away sin. That has been done once and for all through the blood of Jesus.

This is yet another reason why I believe the passage to be speaking of the time in which it was written. There really isn't any need for animals to be sacrificed for the sins of man now, but in the days of Ezekiel that was still God's command for handling sin. Had Israel been contrite and ashamed for their sin and had Israel welcomed in the Prince to come, a lot of history would be different and God may very well have lived forever with Israel upon the land that He had given them.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Eze. 43.19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

Eze. 44.22 They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
 
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miamited

Ted
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Hi JM,

Yes, what you say about God reinstituting the sacrificial system in some future temple is in agreement with what I believe. I just don't see why God would command that something be done that He's already declared through Isaiah is a waste before Him and, according to nearly everyone who has studied the Scriptures, is only a shadow of the truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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JM

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Hi JM,

Yes, what you say about God reinstituting the sacrificial system in some future temple is in agreement with what I believe. I just don't see why God would command that something be done that He's already declared through Isaiah is a waste before Him and, according to nearly everyone who has studied the Scriptures, is only a shadow of the truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

The Temple is figurative. God's people are referred to as the Tabernacle of David in Acts 15. It's a direct quote from Amos 9 that states the Temple will be rebuilt and THAT TEMPLE IS THE CHURCH. Futurism, if it maintains a future Temple based on Ezekiel, must also keep the sacrifices for sin.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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Hi JM,

Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it. I don't agree that the temple that Ezekiel is writing about is figurative. It goes into quite a lot of detail about the accouterments and the sacrifices.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Right, so if the sacrifices have ceased (as we read in Hebrews)...it must be figurative.
 
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miamited

Ted
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Right, so if the sacrifices have ceased (as we read in Hebrews)...it must be figurative.

Hi JM,

No, it must be speaking of a temple, that because of Israel's continued rebellion, didn't get built. At the time that Ezekiel wrote these words the sacrificial system was still alive and well and what God had commanded of Israel. At the time that Ezekiel wrote these words he was to then, in that day, tell Israel about the new temple, but he wasn't to give them the plans for building it unless they were shamed by their sin. That didn't happen.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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FreeinChrist

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MOD HAT

This thread had a small clean up.

Folks, the topic is Futurism. Let's stay away from insulting the other views as of the enemy or being heresy. Please do not goad each other.


Edit - more will be cleaned as needed.

Stop the flaming, please.
 
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Job8

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... He then tells him that 'if' they do become ashamed of their sin, 'then' he is to make known to them the requirements for building the structure. As far as I can recall, Israel never did this.
We should not take Ezekiel's prophecy in isolation. At the Second Coming of Christ, Israel with be ashamed, they will mourn (wail), they will repent, and they will be converted: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Ezekiel's Temple is the Millennial Temple, since no such temple has ever existed in Jerusalem. This confirms that Futurism is exactly what is required.
 
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Bluelion

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Hi Bluelion,

I too, believe that Israel will work to build another temple. After all, as you say, there are plans already in the works, but they are waiting for the land on which they believe it must be built. Although, I'm not sure that God is asking them to do it. I'm just not particularly convicted that this passage in Ezekiel is referring to some distant future temple. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this particular passage does seem to be conditional on Israel's shame for their sin. However, I also don't think that God is going to live forever in a temple built by the hands of men as per the Scriptures and I honestly can't imagine that God would reinstitute the animal sacrificial system since we know that the blood of animals does not take away sin. That has been done once and for all through the blood of Jesus.

This is yet another reason why I believe the passage to be speaking of the time in which it was written. There really isn't any need for animals to be sacrificed for the sins of man now, but in the days of Ezekiel that was still God's command for handling sin. Had Israel been contrite and ashamed for their sin and had Israel welcomed in the Prince to come, a lot of history would be different and God may very well have lived forever with Israel upon the land that He had given them.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
You are right Rev says there is no temples any more with heaven on earth in the end, or beginning for the children of God. Our bodies are the temple for God. You are also right God does not want animal sacrifice but you must remember most Jews do not believe Jesus is the son of God they are still waiting for The Son of God and think they are under the old covenant that is the reason for the animals. OT Law. The temple was build where it is because it is a gate way to Heaven, some Jews believe this where Eden was, other think this is where God stood and creation started. I believe this is also the spot for Jacobs latter. So the spot has meaning. I think it is why on this spot when anti Christ proclaims he is God, that is it. The OT law is being restored in Israel as we speak, right down to the Red Heffer. They have the lines of the preist which have been trained sense boys. All they need is the land back and it will happen. Off the top of my head I can not think of the passage in Eze, but I am going by Revelation.
 
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Bluelion

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The Temple is figurative. God's people are referred to as the Tabernacle of David in Acts 15. It's a direct quote from Amos 9 that states the Temple will be rebuilt and THAT TEMPLE IS THE CHURCH. Futurism, if it maintains a future Temple based on Ezekiel, must also keep the sacrifices for sin.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
well i guess you will be surprised and proved wrong when the Jews do in fact build the 3rd temple As stated In Rev where the anit christ will proclaim him self God.
 
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Bluelion

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We should not take Ezekiel's prophecy in isolation. At the Second Coming of Christ, Israel with be ashamed, they will mourn (wail), they will repent, and they will be converted: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Ezekiel's Temple is the Millennial Temple, since no such temple has ever existed in Jerusalem. This confirms that Futurism is exactly what is required.

I think they will morn perhaps and be ashamed when the age of the gentile is over and the age of the Jews starts. Its clear though the temple is there during the tribulation.
 
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Job8

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I think they will morn perhaps and be ashamed when the age of the gentile is over and the age of the Jews starts. Its clear though the temple is there during the tribulation.
We should not confuse the Tribulation Temple (Antichrist's) with the Millennial Temple (Christ's) which will be the FOURTH TEMPLE.
 
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miamited

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We should not take Ezekiel's prophecy in isolation. At the Second Coming of Christ, Israel with be ashamed, they will mourn (wail), they will repent, and they will be converted: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Ezekiel's Temple is the Millennial Temple, since no such temple has ever existed in Jerusalem. This confirms that Futurism is exactly what is required.

Hi job8,

That is yet another difference in our understanding of the Scriptures. You believe that there will be time after Jesus' second coming for the rebuilding of a temple. I don't.

The return of Jesus is portrayed to us in the Revelation chap. 14. It is the harvest of the earth. Jesus comes first and takes those who are his and then the angel of God's wrath puts the rest in the winepress of God's wrath, which, of course, is not actually a winepress, but on the earth will be the release of God's wrath upon all those remaining on the earth. This will likely occur over a fairly short period of time, but all those who belong to Jesus will have already been removed from the earth and there is no indication after this point, that anyone will be born again. There is no indication from this point on that Jesus ever returns to take anyone to be with him. The next we hear of Jesus will be his thousand year reign upon the earth and the Scriptures seem to say that after the thousand year reign of our Lord, that some will turn to follow Satan when he is released from his prison. Honestly, the thousand year reign seems to be the final test of God in giving all those who were born again a taste of what His eternal life will be like and then Satan is released to take any who may not have been sincere in their love and adoration of God.

Everything after this point foretells of total condemnation upon those that remained upon the earth and it is here that we find that all the armies of the world rise up to fight against the Lord and that their destruction will leave blood upon the earth as deep as a horse's bridle. There is no indication whatsoever that Jesus ever takes anyone else from those remaining to take the wrath of God loosed upon the earth. This piece of Scripture closes with everyone left upon the earth being destroyed by the sword of the Lord.

Then we come to the thousand year reign of the Lord with Satan bound. At the end of which Satan is released once more upon the earth to deceive those that lived through the thousand year reign of Christ. After a 'short' period of time that the Scriptures tell us that Satan was released to do this work of his, comes the final judgment of God.

Then we get a very brief glimpse of life after God's final judgment. As I said before, not all of the Revelation seems to necessarily follow in chronological sequence, but from chap.14 to the end, there does seem to be some continuity of flow.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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well i guess you will be surprised and proved wrong when the Jews do in fact build the 3rd temple As stated In Rev where the anit christ will proclaim him self God.

This seems like an unfair test to me. If you're wrong, and the temple never gets built, then you could always say that it's still a future event. The test is rigged so only one side can be disproved. There were many who thought that the Dome of the Rock was going to be destroyed immediately after it was captured by Israel. They thought the temple was going to be rebuilt right then and there. It wasn't. That was almost a lifetime ago, and a group within Israel has collected all of the building materials, drawn the plans, raised the heifer and even stolen the Ark of the Covenant from Ethiopia. They've been ready to rebuild for a while, now, and the government of Israel seems no closer to the idea, now, than they were fifty years ago. So...if you were wrong, and the temple never gets rebuilt, then how long would it take you to realize your mistake (hypothetically speaking, of course)?
 
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Bluelion

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This seems like an unfair test to me. If you're wrong, and the temple never gets built, then you could always say that it's still a future event. The test is rigged so only one side can be disproved. There were many who thought that the Dome of the Rock was going to be destroyed immediately after it was captured by Israel. They thought the temple was going to be rebuilt right then and there. It wasn't. That was almost a lifetime ago, and a group within Israel has collected all of the building materials, drawn the plans, raised the heifer and even stolen the Ark of the Covenant from Ethiopia. They've been ready to rebuild for a while, now, and the government of Israel seems no closer to the idea, now, than they were fifty years ago. So...if you were wrong, and the temple never gets rebuilt, then how long would it take you to realize your mistake (hypothetically speaking, of course)?

Never thought about being wrong because it speaks of the temple and the Jews worshiping there, to me its like saying well Rev is not prophecy God is wrong. To be honest I am not even sure I will be here or any of God's children will to see the new temple. It could very well be the rapture takes place before, the temple could be built in a year or even less, this could take place during the Tribulation period which I am really Hoping we are not here to see.
 
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Bluelion

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We should not confuse the Tribulation Temple (Antichrist's) with the Millennial Temple (Christ's) which will be the FOURTH TEMPLE.
I am unaware of a fourth temple do you have scripture to which you are referring that I might look at?
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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We should not confuse the Tribulation Temple (Antichrist's) with the Millennial Temple (Christ's) which will be the FOURTH TEMPLE.

Only four temples? That sounds terribly pessimistic! I was expecting millions of temples!
(1 Corinthians 6:19)
 
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Job8

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I am unaware of a fourth temple do you have scripture to which you are referring that I might look at?
3RD TEMPLE = ANTICHRIST'S TEMPLE (plans to rebuild it in Jerusalem are under way)
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess 2:3,4).

4TH TEMPLE = CHRIST'S MILLENNIAL TEMPLE
Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle... And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places...Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. (Ezek 41:1;43;7,10).

Since the third temple will be desecrated thoroughly by Satan and the Beast, it will be unfit to remain a temple, and will probably be destroyed in the earthquake which will shake Jerusalem (Rev 11:13). Therefore a fresh, new and holy Temple will be built according to Ezekiel's pattern (which has never been built before).
 
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