Baptists and Baptism

[LucyEnEcosse]

Hello all

I've recently come to faith after completing the Alpha Course and I attend a Baptist church.

However, I have heard a lot of conflicting things from Christians of different denominations about baptism itself. My friend, who is a Pentecostal Christian, says that baptism must be of water but also of the Holy Spirit for it to be a "proper" baptism.

Firstly, reading Acts and 1 Corinthians makes it sound like this means those who are baptised need to speak in tongues.

Secondly, none of my Baptist friends share this view, and I don't really interpret it that way either.

Can anyone offer me a guide to what the Baptist beliefs around baptism are? I know there's full immersion, but does the Spirit feature in it at all?

I would really like to have some concrete ideas on the subject, but it's difficult when everyone tells you different things!

Thanks <3

 

[Keachian]

On the Spirit and Baptism, I would direct you to Acts 10, Cornelius' conversion and Baptism. We see that Cornelius is Baptised in response to the Regeneration of the Spirit. This is closer to the Baptist view of Baptism.

 

[Bluelion]

Baptism needs to be done full immersion, and this is why. When you go under the water you are being buried in the grave with Christ. It is a symbol of your death with Christ on the cross and being buried with him. When you come out of the water you are being resurrected with Christ on the 3rd day which He was. This is what Baptism means.

 

[Nickybobby]

Water baptism is a symbolic act that we partake in, as followers of Christ, after accepting the salvation of Christ. In Acts 2:38 we are told: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

There are numerous examples in the four gospels and elsewhere in the New Testament of people, including Christ himself, being baptized. In following these teachings, we should be baptized after accepting Christ in order to affirm our faith. This is the public gesture of our faith.

As for the issue of speaking in tongues, this is something that is typically only pushed by certain denominations (Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, Apostolic Faith to name a few). There is much information available about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and you would do best to read as much as you can about it. Likewise, ensure that you read the passages in context. Many of these faith groups settle around a particular spiritual gift, typically speaking in tongues, without scriptural foundation. There are, in fact, several restrictions placed on speaking in tongues which seem to be in contrast to the views of some of these denominations. Specifically, regarding speaking in tongues we are told in 1 Cor. 14:27-28, "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." What does this mean? The simple reading of this scripture ( and those surrounding it) will attest that most of the "tongue speaking" seen in the modern faith movements, where an entire church will be in line along the front of the sanctuary appearing to babble, is a farce.

Finally, with regard to being "baptized in the Holy Spirit." This refers to the baptism in the blood of Christ. Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." This doesn't mean you are going to be thrown into fire and Holy Spirit, it means you are baptized in them, through the blood of Christ who died as penance for your sins.

 

[LucyEnEcosse]

Thank you for all of the information so far, I really am very appreciative!

You say that the Bible says that praying in tongues isn't something that should be done in church, but when I was invited to attend a meeting of Christian Assemblies International (a Pentecostal denomination), they all prayed in tongues together in one part of the meeting. Then, later on, one person would speak in tongues and another would then interpret and speak aloud the translation.

My personal interpretation of glossolalia is that it *can* happen, but that it's not necessarily essential for being baptised. Having said that, I have personally attempted to speak in tongues, of my own volition, just to see how easy it was. The truth is that speaking in tongues for an extended period of time is something that's actually a lot harder to do than many people think, so having experienced an entire room of people doing it for around ten minutes solid, I honestly don't know what to make of it.

Whenever I pray, I have this overwhelming feeling of love and energy in my chest, and to me, that's the Holy Spirit acting within me. Sometimes I even see shining light, despite having my eyes tightly closed.

I basically have so many questions about the Holy Spirit and the gifts, largely because I adopted a "try before you buy" approach to Christian denominations before I found my spiritual home in the Baptist denomination. It seems like every group is saying something that contradicts the other and, as a new believer, I'm overwhelmed.

However, I will definitely speak to my friends in the Baptist community and my pastor in more depth about this.

If anyone wants to link me to some material on the internet about this, I'd be extremely grateful.

Many thanks and prayers xx

 

[LucyEnEcosse]

Also, as a side note, the NLT says things along the lines of "and they spoke in other tongues", not simply that they spoke in tongues, or the language of the angels.

Since Christ always attempted to convey the message of God and salvation to as many people as possible, surely a reasonable interpretation of this would be something like someone being filled with the Spirit and speaking aloud in a living language they had never learned previously? For instance, if Jesus spoke solely in Hebrew/Aramaic or whatever to everyone, not many would have actually understood the Word.

I feel like the reliance of certain denominations on the inerrancy of the KJV is almost contrary to how Jesus himself acted. He always tried to make the Word and God as accessible to as many people as he possibly could, so why should we place all of our destiny in a scripture written in a language that was relevant hundreds of years ago? Also, recent linguistics have proven that "ye" was never a word, and that the stylistic font of the time meant that "th" closely resembled a modern day "y". So, there's also that.

I'm not hating on those who do use the KJV, but I personally feel that it's counterproductive to do the opposite of what Jesus himself did.

 

[miamited]

Hello all

I've recently come to faith after completing the Alpha Course and I attend a Baptist church.

However, I have heard a lot of conflicting things from Christians of different denominations about baptism itself. My friend, who is a Pentecostal Christian, says that baptism must be of water but also of the Holy Spirit for it to be a "proper" baptism.

Firstly, reading Acts and 1 Corinthians makes it sound like this means those who are baptised need to speak in tongues.

Secondly, none of my Baptist friends share this view, and I don't really interpret it that way either.

Can anyone offer me a guide to what the Baptist beliefs around baptism are? I know there's full immersion, but does the Spirit feature in it at all?

I would really like to have some concrete ideas on the subject, but it's difficult when everyone tells you different things!

Thanks <3

Hi lucy,

Just so we might be in agreement here, let me start off by saying that it really doesn't matter what 'baptist' beliefs regarding baptism are. If you are born again, then what you now seek is the truth. Whether Baptists believe it or Methodists or Presbyterians or Pentecostals believe it or teach it isn't really the issue at all.

Now yes, we like to think that some of these denominations know and teach the truth about such things, but because we also know that there are some disagreements about what baptism actually means, well, now we have to do the research. You see if all denominations agreed about a particular matter of the Scriptures, then we can pretty well take it to be the truth. But, if even one denomination teaches something different, then, as born again believers, we want to discern the truth. After all, the singular position of one denomination could be the truth.

So, rather than spend a lot of time being concerned with what one denomination believes over another, I'd encourage that you seek the truth in the Scriptures. The Scriptures are the only information that we can be assured is the truth given to us by the Spirit of the living God. All interpretations and understandings beyond what God's Spirit convicts as the truth to the born again believer are all subject to the failures of human understanding. This doesn't mean that they aren't right, but does mean that they should not be accepted without our own investigation into the matter through the Scriptures and prayers for the wisdom and understanding afforded to the born again believer through the Holy Spirit.

As James McDonald often declares: "God wrote a book." He wrote that book as our singular source of knowledge about Him, His plan and His desire for His children.

What do the Scriptures say about being baptized? Well, first we have the early account of John the Baptist baptizing many in Israel and the confirmation of God's word, through the account of John's birth and name, that that is what God sent him to do.

Then we are told that this same man baptized Jesus and when John questioned Jesus as to why he should be baptizing him, Jesus responded that it was to fulfill all righteousness. Hmmm, what could Jesus have meant by that statement? Then we see, lo and behold, that upon receiving this water baptism the Holy Spirit came down from heaven to rest upon Jesus. Hmmm, what does this mean.

Ok, so there's one example of baptism we find in the Scriptures. Let's move on and gather all the evidence before we begin to search the deeper things of God.

Probably next in chronological order of Jesus' teaching and example on baptism is his discussion with Nicodemus. Jesus tells Nicodemus that the way to eternal life is gained by two events in a person's life. To be born of water and Spirit. Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Isn't this exactly what Jesus represented to us when he was baptized by John?

Then we find that Jesus had his disciples baptize people. They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan--the one you testified about--well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him." The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John,http://www.biblestudytools.com/john/4.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. Right about now the questioning mind would probably be asking, "Well, why all of this baptizing?" Why is Jesus himself instructing his disciples to baptize people? Is this baptizing that is being done of water or Spirit?

Next, we come to Mark's account of Jesus' words. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.http://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/16.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-11 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Now, before we go further, let me just address that there is some question as whether or not Mark actually wrote these words and I'm fine with however one chooses to accept that testimony because we find nearly the same command in Matthew and it appears to be speaking of the same event, the ascension, where Jesus tells the disciples to go and teach and baptize, but does not make the point that this baptism, accompanied with belief, will be a determinant in one's ultimate salvation.

Now, let's move into the Acts of the Apostles. We are told of an event where Phillip comes upon a man reading the Scriptures and claims to be baffled by what he is reading and Phillip begins to explain to him the truth. As soon as the man finds that he believes what Phillip is explaining to him, his first desire is to stop his carriage and be baptized on the spot. Even Paul, when he first believed, was baptized with water by the disciples.

So, friend, here's my encouragement. If you are born again and you seek wisdom and knowledge through prayer to the Father asking for understanding through His Holy Spirit, you will be given the answer to your question. It is Jesus' promise to all those who are born again of the Spirit of the living God that he will lead us into all truth. You can know the truth about these things, but be very careful that you seek it only through prayer and the Scriptures.

In this world today we are all about checking out what someone else believes and while what they believe may not always be wrong, neither do we have any assurance that what they believe is correct. Speaking of the Holy Spirit, Jesus told Nicodemus that he is like the wind. We cannot see him nor do we know where he is going. So, we really have no way of knowing if some author who wrote a book or some teacher who holds himself up to be a teacher come from God, has the necessary equipment to know the truth - - the Holy Spirit.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[LucyEnEcosse]

Thanks, Ted. This was really useful Lucy

 

[classicalhero]

The gift of speaking in tongues(languages) was the ability to speak only once and yet many people of a different language would hear it in their own language. They weren't talking nonsense, that is what witches and pagans do. It is certainly not biblical to be peaking in a language that no one understands.

Baptism is a symbol of your belief. When you believe in Jesus the Holy Spirit dwells in you and thus you have been baptised in the Holy Spirit. Water Baptism in an outward display of what has happened inside and is a representation of what Jesus did for you, that is died for you, was buried and rose again, which is the Gospel.

 

[DeaconDean]

Dear Lucy,

It seems that you are not against reading. That being the case, it would do you a great deal of good to research what Baptist have always believed regarding this subject.

Now understand, I am a Southern Baptist, so my seminary education was from the Southern Baptist perspective. I would direct you to John L. Dagg's great work; "Manual of Theology, A Treatise on Church Order" Vol. II, Chapter One, Baptism".

It is here:

Founders Ministries | TABLES OF EXAMPLES

Just remember, this is from a Southern Baptist theologian.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Petruchio]

Also, as a side note, the NLT says things along the lines of "and they spoke in other tongues", not simply that they spoke in tongues, or the language of the angels.

As a former Pentecostal, I would recommend staying away from them. There are many Christians who are among them, but the visions, "discernments," and other alleged revelatory powers, tend to lead primarily to self or group delusion, and much abuse. It can get you focusing too much on outward signs rather than focusing on Christ. I'll add that the definition of faith is this:

Joh_20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

As for tongues, biblically, they are a language. I would recommend researching the scripture on this and double checking all their claims and proof-texts with the various commentaries out there. The reason why tongues are harped on so much is only because they're the easiest to fake, and hucksters out there are ready and willing to get you into believing that the babbling sounds you make really is the work of the Holy Spirit. (Try faking it, if you have the guts, or repeating one you gave in the past, to see if you can get a different interpetation. If one comes, you'll know the truth.) Genuine prophecy that isn't vague like a horoscope, and growing limbs back on and such are, as you can imagine, a bit more difficult.

That said, I do not discount miracles or the supernatural. In fact, I have seen it, and have experienced significant answers to prayer. Ironically, this only happened after I left the Pentecostals. But the world view was entirely different, and the expectation was no longer on miracles themselves, but on relying on God not expecting to be dazzled at all.

I was a young Christian when I got sucked into them, and had I avoided them I would have avoided a lot of grief and despair. Please take my advice seriously.

I feel like the reliance of certain denominations on the inerrancy of the KJV is almost contrary to how Jesus himself acted.

I prefer the KJV since I consider it one of the best translations, and, also, the most beautiful. But it is not inerrant. I use a dozen or so Bibles on this computer whenever I am doing apologetics or studying. The KJV is for enjoyment, though it is plenty good for studying as well.

 

[LucyEnEcosse]

I find it hard to talk about certain topics with my Pentecostal friends because, although I love them dearly, they tell me that my own experiences of God and of the Holy Spirit acting within me aren't real, that I don't have the Spirit within me. I find that offensive almost to the point of arrogance, because how on earth would someone else know about your unique relationship with God? It's between you and Him, not every other Tom, Dick and Harry, after all!

I haven't been baptised as of yet, but I consider it a formality. This seems to be one of the sticking points in discussion between my Pentecostal friends and I, because even though I'll have accepted Jesus as my one true saviour and have my sin washed away in the symbolic act of full immersion baptism, because my church doesn't teach the same theory of being baptised in the Spirit as my Pentecostal friends do, it's apparently not genuine. This upsets me greatly.

Also, their views on mental illness are offensive and wholly inappropriate, in my opinion. Having suffered from an illness after many bad experiences in my own childhood, I find it offensive that they'd suggest my illness is caused by not believing in God and not trusting in Him. As we know, Christianity and science are not incompatible, and one of my acquaintances is a qualified NHS psychiatrist who is also a Christian says that it's caused purely by physiological chemical imbalances and past experiences, not a lack of faith. I agree, because even though I know that God will always love me and that he's with me throughout all of my life, including the hard times, it doesn't mean that my illness just disappears.

As for my friends in CAI, they have so many testimonies from people all across the world about healing that God has given them. One of my friends was completely healed of Crohn's Disease, which medical professionals had previously told her was incurable. She prayed for the pain to stop and it just stopped immediately and never came back. The doctors agree that she's cured. Another testimony speaks of someone who had one leg shorter than the other watching as his leg grew to match his other one after he had prayed for healing.

With regards to tongues, I did attempt glossolalia to see how easy/difficult it was to do it for a prolonged period of time. It *is* harder than it looks, like I said above.

Basically, I feel upset and offended that my Pentecostal CAI friends assume they have any sort of authority to tell me that my experiences of God and the Spirit aren't valid. That is something I wouldn't do, ever.

I hasten to add that 99% of my Pentecostal friends are members of CAI, but the friend who is a member of the local Elim Church doesn't share any of the same "etiquette".

Apologies for the length of this. I'm just sick of being told my own experiences of God aren't real.

Love and peace <3

 

[Nickybobby]

I find it hard to talk about certain topics with my Pentecostal friends because, although I love them dearly, they tell me that my own experiences of God and of the Holy Spirit acting within me aren't real, that I don't have the Spirit within me. I find that offensive almost to the point of arrogance, because how on earth would someone else know about your unique relationship with God? It's between you and Him, not every other Tom, Dick and Harry, after all!

....

Apologies for the length of this. I'm just sick of being told my own experiences of God aren't real.

Love and peace <3

Finding fellowship and accountability through brothers and sisters in Christ is helpful and important, but what you have written is spot on. Judging your soul is not the duty or mortal men.

 

[LucyEnEcosse]

I've been speaking to my pastor at length about the situation, and I've been in touch with other baptists too, so it's helping me to feel more secure in my beliefs that are different to those held by the CAI. Some of the things written, in my view, are wholly of the time and culture they were written in, and don't directly translate to modernity. Following things to the letter without contextualising history/culture or interpreting language isn't exactly helpful, in my opinion.

Basically, I'm still really hurt that they would think it was fine to tell me I don't have the Spirit and God within me, when I know that I do. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could say that would be a polite way of saying this? I honestly don't want to offend them, but I also don't wish to be continually insulted and have my agency of faith dismissed all the time.

Thanks <3

 

[miamited]

I've been speaking to my pastor at length about the situation, and I've been in touch with other baptists too, so it's helping me to feel more secure in my beliefs that are different to those held by the CAI. Some of the things written, in my view, are wholly of the time and culture they were written in, and don't directly translate to modernity. Following things to the letter without contextualising history/culture or interpreting language isn't exactly helpful, in my opinion.

Basically, I'm still really hurt that they would think it was fine to tell me I don't have the Spirit and God within me, when I know that I do. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could say that would be a polite way of saying this? I honestly don't want to offend them, but I also don't wish to be continually insulted and have my agency of faith dismissed all the time.

Thanks <3

Hi lucyenecosse,

Why do you feel that you need to have some response. It's always good to just say, "I understand how you feel, thank-you." Quick to forgive -- slow to anger. But if you do want to answer them, then simply tell them the truth. There is no command to speak in tongues. There is a command to be baptized. And your response to anything that you believe is not the truth, so long as you do know the truth, should be: "I understand that you believe that what you're telling me is the truth."

Now, just remember that these people are saying these things because they believe they are helping you. This is why each and everyone of us who choose to be children of God must, absolutely must, be understanding of what the Scriptures teach. Our soon coming salvation comes through belief and baptism. It is very important, I believe, that we understand that the two are joined by 'and'.

However, it is not my job, or their job to try and pound 'truth' into anyone. As far as we know Jesus didn't nor did Paul or Peter or any of the other first disciples. We speak the truth in love and the responsibility of one's understanding and accepting that truth is solely dependent on God's work through the Holy Spirit.

Paul said this about tongues. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Notice that he said 'if' not when.

Peter said this about being baptized. "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Notice that he said 'be baptized' and clearly claimed that that was how they would receive the Holy Spirit.

As I encouraged in my first response to you, anytime we have questions about what God wants of us, the answers can be found in the Scriptures. Search them diligently with much prayer and requests of understanding through the Holy Spirit and it will be given you. God has assured each and every one of us that we will find Him if we diligently search for Him.

God bless you and may you continue to seek for him all the days of your life. For the Scriptures also declare that only the one who perseveres unto the end, shall be saved.

All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Twice, Jesus himself uttered these words. In two different circumstances and places. Once as he was sending out the 12 and it comes in a text telling us of all the terrible things that would surely befall both them and us. We will be hated by others. Even our own families will despise us. We will be flogged by those of our own religion. Brother will betray brother and a father his child and children their parents; all because of the teachings of Jesus.

Stand firm and love the Lord your God with all that you are and I can assure you that you will be given the answers that you seek. Love Him more than you love husband, boyfriend, best friend, siblings, mother or father. Jesus commanded that our love for his Father be with all of our body, soul, mind and strength. It's a very, very deep and abiding love and it's hard and requires work to keep such a love enflamed for someone that we can neither touch or feel His touch, but that is what is asked of us.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[LucyEnEcosse]

Hi Ted, thanks for your words. This evening I was asked what my views on the Spirit are and I basically had to say "I differ from your views on it, but I think we should talk about it another time when I'm less tired".

Essentially, I feel happy with my own interpretation of the Holy Spirit and I arrived at the conclusions after reading scripture and speaking with my pastor.

I'm just sad that my Pentecostal friends can't see that they hurt me when they tell me my relationship with God is wrong. I know they honestly believe they're doing the right thing, but it's hard to hear it all the time.

Thank you for all of your advice - that's to everyone who has contributed

May God bless every one of you <3

 

[DeaconDean]

You know, I have an ex-brother-in-law who was raised in the Church of God.

We have had many, many profitible discussions, and not once has it come to blows or full blown arguements.

We have found out, we agree far more than we disagree.

And on the matter of tongues, we agree.

1 Cor. 14 speaks volumes. Paul points out that he wished rather than speaking in tongues, he would "rather that ye prophesied".

And he also points out that it is indeed a "gift", but does everybody have the same gift? (1 Cor. 12)

And it also noteworthy that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, and the speaking in tongues as noted in the early church in Acts, was more of the announcment that Holy Spirit had arrived.

If I walk into a Pentecostal church, and the entire church is "speaking in tongues", I have cause for suspision. I don't doubt it, rather I'm very cautious.

And yes, I have attended many Church of God services.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[miamited]

Hi lucy,

Yes, and I honestly don't understand why, on the issue of tongues, people don't see it as the gift that it is claimed to be. None of the gifts are, or as far as I know, have ever been claimed as being the same or one individual gift that everyone has. They are gifts that are spread around among the body of believers so that the body itself will be complete. One may have the gift of prophecy and another the gift of tongues while someone else has the gift of charity, etc. Paul seems to be quite clear:

We have different gifts,http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/12.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-11 according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying,http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/12.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-12 let him use it in proportion to hishttp://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/12.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-b faith.http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/12.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-13 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/12.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-14 if it is encouraging, let him encourage;http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/12.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-15 if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously;http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/12.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-16 if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Epecho]

Here are a few videos that will really help you in your understanding of baptism:


What Must I Do To Be Saved? | TheTruthAbout.net

Searching for Truth About Baptism

If you have any questions let me know

 

[SoulBap6]

LUCY
I'm just sad that my Pentecostal friends can't see that they hurt me when they tell me my relationship with God is wrong. I know they honestly believe they're doing the right thing, but it's hard to hear it all the time.

Its hard to be a Christian because being popular is not part of the deal. There our many religions that does not agree with the Baptist and especially those that tell you they our spirit filled and speak in that special language of God and those that will tell you we all worship the same God. Sometimes you have to take a stand and defend your belief, I try to be a good as I can but sometimes you have to tell them, you disagree with their belief and let them know your not going to change your mind and If they feel your wrong so be it. They don't mind telling you, and if they continue just leave them alone. Distance your self from them.