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Baptist Vs Non Denominational: Difference in Teachings?

ViaCrucis

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I used to be the same way. Then I realized that all the commands to study and search scripture were just more laws to be followed. And the command to preach and proclaim the gospel was just another law too. And the command to not forsake gathering together - another law. And the command to pray - another law.

So now I don't read the bible, listen to preaching, go to church, or pray any more. I used to feel guilty about not doing these things, but now I feel so free since I'm not under law but under grace!

/sarc ;)

You forgot the most insidious law of them all, that really nasty one: Love your neighbor.

Diabolical I tell you.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BillyShope

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I used to be the same way. Then I realized that all the commands to study and search scripture were just more laws to be followed. And the command to preach and proclaim the gospel was just another law too. And the command to not forsake gathering together - another law. And the command to pray - another law.

So now I don't read the bible, listen to preaching, go to church, or pray any more. I used to feel guilty about not doing these things, but now I feel so free since I'm not under law but under grace!

/sarc ;)
I enjoyed your post. It seems, whenever I attempt to use sarcasm, there's always someone who takes it seriously. Perhaps I should add the little note, as you did.

Unfortunately, there ARE those who take Liberty as License and reach some of those same conclusions. It is the pastor's responsibility to cause the believer to understand that he is to be guided by the Spirit as he walks in love and in the new man.

The difference...between a grace church and one in which Biblical dispensationalism is not taught...is that the grace preacher would never teach or imply that God is somehow displeased and will bring His wrath to bear on the believer who doesn't tithe, or get water baptized, or commit a particular sin, etc.

http://www.shopeshop.org/preChoice.htm
 
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Tangible

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I was amused when you set "grace church" and "one where dispensationalism is not taught" in opposition to each other. It has been my experience that dispensationalism and a focus on grace seldom go hand in hand. I was raised in dispy churches, and I never really understood grace until I left dispy theology behind.

Your post also assumes a law-based view of Baptism, something that is not borne out in scripture. Since you value grace highly, you should learn to appreciate what a good and gracious gift God has given us in our baptism.
 
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Tigger45

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In my experience Baptists never add this statement in their statements of belief. Also when I see this statement and they don't follow up by saying that speaking in tongues is the (INITIAL) sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit then "usually" they don't hold to that teaching. Usually when they use this type of statement phrasing they will respond with "all believers baptized with the Holy Spirit (CAN) speak in tongues not that it is an imperative.

o We believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for all believers as a definite endowment of power for service and is subsequent to, and separate from, conversion.
 
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BillyShope

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I was amused....
I'm glad we each had a good laugh. That doesn't happen very often in these exchanges.
Your post also assumes a law-based view of Baptism, something that is not borne out in scripture.
Of course it isn't! Yet, I heard it taught or implied in baptist churches around the country.
Since you value grace highly, you should learn to appreciate what a good and gracious gift God has given us in our baptism.
This conclusion doesn't follow, of course; not for this dispensation, anyway.

http://www.shopeshop.org/preChoice.htm
 
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ViaCrucis

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In my experience Baptists never add this statement in their statements of belief. Also when I see this statement and they don't follow up by saying that speaking in tongues is the (INITIAL) sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit then "usually" they don't hold to that teaching. Usually when they use this type of statement phrasing they will respond with "all believers baptized with the Holy Spirit (CAN) speak in tongues not that it is an imperative.

o We believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for all believers as a definite endowment of power for service and is subsequent to, and separate from, conversion.

Why should Baptists confess this? Why should any Christian?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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This conclusion doesn't follow, of course; not for this dispensation, anyway

Since the concept of "dispensation" is meaningless to those of us who regard Dispensationalism as a modern, aberrant theological system without biblical basis at all; but it does follow that Baptism, as work of God alone, as Scripture testifies to, is a Means by which He graciously saves us through faith alone.

In churches that make it a point to rightly divide the word of Scripture, and understand the difference between Law and Gospel, one is hard pressed to find Legalism.

God's work is free and good and it saves us, wholly and entirely apart from anything and everything we could ever even fathom doing. That includes "making a decision to follow Jesus"--which itself is a work of human will, and therefore is a matter of Law, not Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BillyShope

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In churches that make it a point to rightly divide the word of Scripture....

-CryptoLutheran
How could a church ever "rightly divide" without recognizing that God has dealt differently with His people at different times? Consider circumcision alone and compare Genesis 17:10-14 with Colossians 3:11. This is certainly a very dramatic change with time, or, in other words, a change in dispensations.

Incidentally, Paul uses the word, "dispensation," four times in his epistles, so the consideration of such matters is hardly "modern."

http://www.shopeshop.org/preChoice.htm
 
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ViaCrucis

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How could a church ever "rightly divide" without recognizing that God has dealt differently with His people at different times? Consider circumcision alone and compare Genesis 17:10-14 with Colossians 3:11. This is certainly a very dramatic change with time, or, in other words, a change in dispensations.

Incidentally, Paul uses the word, "dispensation," four times in his epistles, so the consideration of such matters is hardly "modern."

God established covenants, yes. God's covenant with Abraham, for example, finds its fullness in Christ, whom St. Paul calls the Seed of Abraham, and that through faith, having been justified by grace, we are Abraham's offspring.

God established a covenant with the Jewish people on Mt. Sinai, and part of that was the giving them of the Torah, by which they were to be His Covenant and representative people among the nations. However, the Torah wasn't about salvation, as St. Paul is clear to say, the Law does not save, and indeed was powerless to save (Romans 8:3).

The Apostle is clear, that Abraham had faith and it was accredited to him righteousness. So, according to St. Paul, there has only and ever been justification by grace through faith. There has never existed any other way. Circumcision never justified a man, neither did the sacrifices in the Tabernacle/Temple. Indeed, what does David in his psalm say?

"For You will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; You will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."

Indeed, we read that these former things were ever but only shadows, the substance of them is Christ Himself.

Since the beginning, there has ever and only been ever one way by which God is going to reconcile the world to Himself, and that is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, born of Mary's womb. And all who have been justified have only been justified, saved, because of the all-sufficient and atoning work of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BillyShope

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God established covenants, yes. God's covenant with Abraham, for example, finds its fullness in Christ, whom St. Paul calls the Seed of Abraham, and that through faith, having been justified by grace, we are Abraham's offspring.

God established a covenant with the Jewish people on Mt. Sinai, and part of that was the giving them of the Torah, by which they were to be His Covenant and representative people among the nations. However, the Torah wasn't about salvation, as St. Paul is clear to say, the Law does not save, and indeed was powerless to save (Romans 8:3).

The Apostle is clear, that Abraham had faith and it was accredited to him righteousness. So, according to St. Paul, there has only and ever been justification by grace through faith. There has never existed any other way. Circumcision never justified a man, neither did the sacrifices in the Tabernacle/Temple. Indeed, what does David in his psalm say?

"For You will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; You will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."

Indeed, we read that these former things were ever but only shadows, the substance of them is Christ Himself.

Since the beginning, there has ever and only been ever one way by which God is going to reconcile the world to Himself, and that is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, born of Mary's womb. And all who have been justified have only been justified, saved, because of the all-sufficient and atoning work of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
A lot of truth there. Now, how about answering the question:
"How could a church ever "rightly divide" without recognizing that God has dealt differently with His people at different times?"
This, after all, is the basis of dispensationalism. That which is to be divided is time.

Sorry I have to pin you down, but if you say that God has not dealt differently with His creation at different times, you deny the obvious change with regard to circumcision and uncircumcision.

On the other hand, if you say that God has dealt differently with His creation at different times, you have acknowledged the need for a study based on different times, i.e., dispensations. (Second Timothy 2:15)

Which is it to be?

http://www.shopeshop.org/preChoice.htm
 
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Rev55

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The differences are very minute tbh as far as most Protestant denoms go, but I heard if u ever go fishing with a baptist, to always bring 2. Because it you just bring one he will drink all the beer.

Wow really? How about we only tell facts and not slander other denominations. But hey I'm Baptist and I don't drink any alcoholic beverages or go fishing.
 
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Bonzobob

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I used to be the same way. Then I realized that all the commands to study and search scripture were just more laws to be followed. And the command to preach and proclaim the gospel was just another law too. And the command to not forsake gathering together - another law. And the command to pray - another law.

So now I don't read the bible, listen to preaching, go to church, or pray any more. I used to feel guilty about not doing these things, but now I feel so free since I'm not under law but under grace!

/sarc ;)
These are not laws, they are suggestions to deepen your knowledge of God. Jesus did not do away with the law, He fulfilled it.
 
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DeaconDean

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I have been a Baptist since 1974.

I know this is old, but it is the one I prefer:

Abstract of Principles


When the original charter of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858 it contained the following statement which constitutes as a part of the "fundamental laws." "Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist Church; and all persons accepting professorships in this Seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees."

The following is an excerpt from the Fundamental Laws of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary written into its charter on April 30, 1858: Every Professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist Church; and all persons accepting Professorships in this Seminary, shall be considered by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down." (Mueller: History of Southern Seminary; BROADMAN PRESS: P. 238).


I. THE SCRIPTURES

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.


II. GOD

There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.


III. THE TRINITY

God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.


IV. PROVIDENCE

God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.


V. ELECTION

Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life - not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ - in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.


VI. THE FALL OF MAN

God originally created man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.


VII. THE MEDIATOR

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law, suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.


VIII. REGENERATION

Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone.


IX. REPENTANCE

Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being, by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.


X. FAITH

Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.


XI. JUSTIFICATION

Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.


XII. SANCTIFICATION

Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified, by God's word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ's commands.


XIII. PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.


XIV. THE CHURCH

The Lord Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is composed of all his true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to his commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches he hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which he hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops or Elders, and Deacons.


XV. BAPTISM

Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of his giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life. It is prerequisite to church fellowship, and to participation in the Lord's Supper.


XVI. THE LORD'S SUPPER

The Lord's Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be Observed by his churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate his death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with him, and of their church fellowship.


XVII. THE LORD'S DAY

The Lord's Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, resting from worldly employments and amusements, works of necessity and mercy only excepted.


XVIII. LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE

God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.


XIV. THE RESURRECTION

The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God - the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.


XX. THE JUDGMENT

God hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds: the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

Abstract of Principles, James P.Boyce, 1858

This was up until 1925, the "unofficial" Confession of Faith" for Southern Baptists.

Now as to the statement:

"In my experience Baptists never add this statement in their statements of belief. Also when I see this statement and they don't follow up by saying that speaking in tongues is the (INITIAL) sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit then "usually" they don't hold to that teaching. Usually when they use this type of statement phrasing they will respond with "all believers baptized with the Holy Spirit (CAN) speak in tongues not that it is an imperative.

o We believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for all believers as a definite endowment of power for service and is subsequent to, and separate from, conversion."

That, to this day is still a highly controversial subject.

Outside of Acts, speaking in tongues is only mentioned in Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth. Outside that, no other apostle addresses this subject that I know of.

The debate on "that which is perfect is come" still invokes from the KJVOnly crowd that since we have the scriptures, speaking in tongues has ceased.

In the 1925 Baptist Faith and Message, there is a clause that says basically you can agree with all, one, or none of what is written herein and still be a Baptist.

It reads:

"1) That they constitute a consensus of opinion of some Baptist body, large or small, for the general instruction and guidance of our own people and others concerning those articles of the Christian faith which are most surely held among us. They are not intended to add anything to the simple conditions of salvation revealed in the New Testament, viz., repentance towards God, and faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord.

(2) That we do not regard them as complete statements of our faith, having any quality of finality or infallibility. As in the past so in the future, Baptists should hold themselves free to revise their statements of faith as may seem to them wise and expedient at any time.

(3) That any group of Baptists, large or small, has the inherent right to draw up for themselves and publish to the world a confession of their faith whenever they may think it advisable to do so.

(4) That the sole authority for faith and practice among Baptists is the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. Confessions are only guides in interpretation, having no authority over the conscience.

(5) That they are statements of religious convictions drawn from the Scriptures, and are not to be used to hamper freedom of thought or investigation in other realms of life."

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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These are not laws, they are suggestions to deepen your knowledge of God. Jesus did not do away with the law, He fulfilled it.
I was being sarcastic. See the little "/sarc;)" at the bottom? :D
 
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tampasteve

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In this area the non-denom church is more likely to be a "seeker" church with that style worship while a church with the "Baptist" name or affiliation is more likely to be traditional Baptist in worship. Not all are that way, but more likely than not that is the case. That said, there has been a trend here (and probably elsewhere) to drop "Baptist" from the name (change to things like "Relevant Church" or "Christ Fellowship") and embrace a seeker style worship and disassociate from being "Baptist".
 
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bbbbbbb

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In this area the non-denom church is more likely to be a "seeker" church with that style worship while a church with the "Baptist" name or affiliation is more likely to be traditional Baptist in worship. Not all are that way, but more likely than not that is the case. That said, there has been a trend here (and probably elsewhere) to drop "Baptist" from the name (change to things like "Relevant Church" or "Christ Fellowship") and embrace a seeker style worship and disassociate from being "Baptist".

I think this is part of a broader cultural trend of branding things to make them as appealing to as broad an audience as possible, which results in general blandness. In my grandmother's generations they ate oysters with great gusto because of the unique flavor of oysters. My brother rejected all food with any distinct flavor and prefers mashed potatoes. We live in a mashed potato culture.
 
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tampasteve

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I think this is part of a broader cultural trend of branding things to make them as appealing to as broad an audience as possible, which results in general blandness. In my grandmother's generations they ate oysters with great gusto because of the unique flavor of oysters. My brother rejected all food with any distinct flavor and prefers mashed potatoes. We live in a mashed potato culture.
Yes, I can agree with that. The Methodist church I attended high school through college just changed their name to a generic one and in the last 5years or so changed to a seeker style worship. Although, they were always contemporary and have not had a traditional style worship service for close to 20 years. I personally don't care for that style of worship, but I know it is popular with a lot of people.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Yes, I can agree with that. The Methodist church I attended high school through college just changed their name to a generic one and in the last 5years or so changed to a seeker style worship. Although, they were always contemporary and have not had a traditional style worship service for close to 20 years. I personally don't care for that style of worship, but I know it is popular with a lot of people.

I am glad that not all churches have succumbed yet, although my own church is trending in the wrong direction IMO.
 
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tampasteve

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I am glad that not all churches have succumbed yet, although my own church is trending in the wrong direction IMO.
Indeed. That's one reason I have settled in the Lutheran Church. They seem to maintain a more traditional liturgy, at least in this area. I'm sure there are others too though, I know it's not just the Lutheran Church.
 
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