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I honestly can't believe you all have been going on and on about this with Ringo...seriously...this thread is just long winded at this point and honestly Ringo has not a leg to stand on(no offense brother but you don't!)
Fundamentals of it all 1
Progressive(at least) viewpoint 0.
thanks.
becareful said:Ringo...
You didn't answer from the previous post... Are you married?
bloodwashed said:Ringo is arguing the secular viewpoint of feminism over the Bible.
Ringo, you offer no Biblical proof as to why you believe this way, you just say "this is the way it is, so this is the way it is." You offer no argument or reason as to why you say this.
It is easy to argue in circles my friend. Every argument that anyone offers up, whether Biblical or practical, you shoot down because you do not believe things to be that way.
becareful said:From your secular point of view they are equal.
. It is not strange for the verse to specify only women to submit. That is what it means!
Your point of view is appearing to try to change scripture.
Not exactly... all characteristics of a man/woman relationship are not complementary. Using an academic analogy... What if both my wife and I are good at mathematics... and neither one of us is any good at English. If one of us must pass English or we both fail... From your point of view... who takes the lead to make sure we pass? If, as you say, we were absolutely complementary in strengths... one of us would be good at math and one good at English.
Actually, you contradict youself when you say men and women have complementary strengths. You have acknowledged "strength"... therefore one gender IS "stronger" or "weaker" than the other (implying a complementary situation). It just depends on the specific characteristic.
In general, head-to-head competition... based solely on physical strength men are stronger.
Pregnancy and labor??? Men have not been blessed with the ability have children. There is no comparison. You're grasping at straws.
If you'd read my quote closely... I said "in general". For the most part it is true men tend to be more logical and women tend to be more nurturing and driven by emotion.
Anyway... what if I am making an assumption about all women and men? You are making an all out assumption that men and women are totally equal... I assure you my young neophyte... that absolutely is not the case.
This is not in dispute. The only thing that has to be answered is who is to take a leadership role. Both the man and woman can't lead... I guarantee you that most successful Christian marriages are lead by the man.
If there isn't one leader(the man) in the household... it's kind of like a conversation between Sponge Bob and Patrick that goes something like this....
Patrick: What do you want to do today?
Sponge Bob: I don't know, what do you wanna do?
Patrick: I don't know, what do you wanna do?
Sponge Bob: I don't know, what do you wanna do?
Patrick: I don't know, what do you wanna do?
Sponge Bob: I don't know, what do you wanna do?
.
bloodwashed said:I have tried to tell Ringo this before only to have him deny that he is denying scripture because he is not denying it.
I have also tried to tell him that you cannot compare the strengths of men and women in the area of pregnancy because men are not physically able to be pregnant. Not that men couldn't handle it, just that men were not designed by God with that ability.
NoRapture said:honestly Ringo has not a leg to stand on(no offense brother but you don't!)
Ok bible 1, society 0.
I'll respond to the above posts in the order in which they came.
If we're done patting ourselves on the back for "winning one for the Bible" (I wasn't aware this was a contest), we can return to our discussion.
Hahahahaha, that made me lol.
Originally Posted by bloodwashedRingo is arguing the secular viewpoint of feminism over the Bible.Are we going to discuss the issue here or Ringo84?
When have I once mentioned feminism apart from responding to someone else?
The ideas that you spout of no hierarchy in marriage are feminist ideas.
Ringo, you offer no Biblical proof as to why you believe this way, you just say "this is the way it is, so this is the way it is." You offer no argument or reason as to why you say this.I have never said "I think this is the way it is, so that's the way it is". I have argued for my point of view. And I think I have brought up some good points.
I did not mean that you literally said what I put in quotes, I was just adding emphasis. The points that you have brought up are circular arguments that prove nothing. The only one convinced by your arguments is yourself. You do say it but in different words. See underlined text below.
It is easy to argue in circles my friend. Every argument that anyone offers up, whether Biblical or practical, you shoot down because you do not believe things to be that way.Because they aren't that way. Women aren't "weaker vessels". Women aren't solely responsible for the events in the Garden. Submission and accountability does not flow one way in a marriage.
You offer NO proof as to why this supposedly is this way. You just say women aren't the weaker vessel (contradicting scripture), but you offer no valid proof to prove this save in your own mind (i.e. pregnancy argument).
Originally Posted by becarefulFrom your secular point of view they are equal.That word 'secular' keeps getting thrown around in this thread like the buzz-word 'Socialism' is thrown around on the political board. A viewpoint that doesn't agree with yours is not necessarily "secular".
That is because you are spouting secular opinions (feminist ideals). And as for the "socialist" comment, "if it walks like a duck..."
"There is no male nor female...for all are one under Christ Jesus" - Galatians 3:28. God apparently does find women equal to men.
This is in the matter of salvation, that is why earlier in the verse he says "there is neither Jew nor Greek..." Apparently, God does distinguish men and women in the matter of marriage, because in Ephesians and elsewhere in the Bible, He provides the duties of each to the other, never saying that they are equal in marriage with no authority figure over the other.
. It is not strange for the verse to specify only women to submit. That is what it means!I know what it means, but the verse flies in the face of simple fact: that mutual submission - accountability - comes from the man and the woman in a marriage.
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe we as humans don't always follow God's plan in marriage?There is mutual submission, but there is also submission by the wife to the authority of the husband.
Your point of view is appearing to try to change scripture.No. My point of view is trying to understand a verse that seems illogical.
Women are stronger in certain areas than men. Men are stronger in certain areas than women. The genders complement each other. They go hand in hand. What is so difficult to understand about that?
Actually, you contradict youself when you say men and women have complementary strengths. You have acknowledged "strength"... therefore one gender IS "stronger" or "weaker" than the other (implying a complementary situation). It just depends on the specific characteristic.I don't necessarily think that one gender is stronger than the other. I think they complement each other's strengths and weaknesses.
In general, head-to-head competition... based solely on physical strength men are stronger.In upper body strength.
Pregnancy and labor??? Men have not been blessed with the ability have children. There is no comparison. You're grasping at straws.Are men's bodies strong enough to bear a child?
How do you know if they are not? To say they can't be strong enough because of the simple fact they can't have children is nonsensical. We don't know if men's bodies are strong enough to have children because God did not design us for that purpose.
Originally Posted by bloodwashedI have tried to tell Ringo this before only to have him deny that he is denying scripture because he is not denying it.I have never once "denied" Scripture. Raising questions about a particular verse is not "denial".
Above, you plainly deny that women are the weaker vessel, even though that is what the Bible says!
Once again: are we going to discuss Ringo84 or the subject at hand?
I have also tried to tell him that you cannot compare the strengths of men and women in the area of pregnancy because men are not physically able to be pregnant. Not that men couldn't handle it, just that men were not designed by God with that ability.They weren't designed with that ability because men's bodies couldn't handle it. And thus, women are stronger than men in that area.
How do you know men's bodies couldn't handle it?! HOW!?!
Originally Posted by NoRapturehonestly Ringo has not a leg to stand on(no offense brother but you don't!)Good. I love a challenge.
HAhahaha, you are spunky if nothing else.
Ok bible 1, society 0.I see why this is such an important issue for you all. You think that you have to "defend" God and "defend" the Bible, as if God needs to be defended.
I do not think God needs to be defended, I am trying to do this for your benefit, because it appears that your understanding of this subject is somewhat unclear. I was just joking around with NoRapture. This is not about "who wins."
God must be pretty weak indeed if He needs to be defended from a twenty-five year old discussing a relatively minor issue on an online forum.
So then, does this mean you feel like you are arguing against the Bible and thus we have to defend it?
Ringo
The ideas that you spout of no hierarchy in marriage are feminist ideas.
I did not mean that you literally said what I put in quotes, I was just adding emphasis. The points that you have brought up are circular arguments that prove nothing. The only one convinced by your arguments is yourself. You do say it but in different words. See underlined text below.
That is because you are spouting secular opinions (feminist ideals).
He provides the duties of each to the other, never saying that they are equal in marriage with no authority figure over the other.
You offer NO proof as to why this supposedly is this way. You just say women aren't the weaker vessel (contradicting scripture), but you offer no valid proof to prove this save in your own mind (i.e. pregnancy argument).
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe we as humans don't always follow God's plan in marriage?There is mutual submission, but there is also submission by the wife to the authority of the husband.
How do you know if they are not? To say they can't be strong enough because of the simple fact they can't have children is nonsensical. We don't know if men's bodies are strong enough to have children because God did not design us for that purpose.
Above, you plainly deny that women are the weaker vessel, even though that is what the Bible says!
How do you know men's bodies couldn't handle it?! HOW!?!
HAhahaha, you are spunky if nothing else.
I do not think God needs to be defended, I am trying to do this for your benefit, because it appears that your understanding of this subject is somewhat unclear.
So then, does this mean you feel like you are arguing against the Bible and thus we have to defend it?
When you're ready to discuss this issue without slapping labels onto my beliefs, I'll be here.
Ringo
--- Paul Washer.The barebones Gospel is a scandal....in that we see the Glory of God!!!
I call it like I see it...it's been 23 pages of the same thing from you on this subject.
Well, our roles are different in the sense that men are to lead, guide, protect and provide for their families and women are to care for and tend to children and hold down the home front while the husband is away doing what it takes to keep the family alive.That's a good point, though I would argue that men and women's roles are not that different. Women and men both can preach and women and men both are mutually submissive in marriage.
Ringo
Because the bible says so is the way it goes my brother.
We aren't talking about obscure eschatological doctrine...we are talking about a literal statement from a literal God.
I won't apologize to anyone for having that attitude.
As a matter of fact, it is. Phoebe the deaconess was a minister during Biblical times and had many of the same functions as male clergy.Women can preach all they want...I see good preaching from Beth Moore for sure...but as the PASTOR OF A CHURCH...it's not in the Word.
leo said:Well, our roles are different in the sense that men are to lead, guide, protect and provide for their families and women are to care for and tend to children and hold down the home front while the husband is away doing what it takes to keep the family alive.
Was that in response to me? Are you saying I'm "preaching"?Women can preach all they want...I see good preaching from Beth Moore for sure...but as the PASTOR OF A CHURCH...it's not in the Word.
Thanks for listening.
Was that in response to me? Are you saying I'm "preaching"?
Yes, they can. My grandmother did it, and quite successfully. My point was that that's not our primary role.Women can't lead? Women can't protect and provide for their families?
Ringo
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