Baptist Pastor

[Andyman_1970]

If the pastor is divorced, does that mean Christ might divorce the church?

I too would have a problem with a pastor who divorced after he with either a) in the ministry or b) was not for Biblical reasons.

That said, marriage is a "prop" to demonstrate Christ's love for the church, and since that "prop" is lived out by imperfect humans (unlike Jesus) it can only give a partial picture of Christ's love for His bride. So with all due respect I think that is a bit of a strectch to reach that conclusion - Jesus divorcing the church.

 

[ZiSunka]

I too would have a problem with a pastor who divorced after he with either a) in the ministry or b) was not for Biblical reasons.

That said, marriage is a "prop" to demonstrate Christ's love for the church, and since that "prop" is lived out by imperfect humans (unlike Jesus) it can only give a partial picture of Christ's love for His bride. So with all due respect I think that is a bit of a strectch to reach that conclusion - Jesus divorcing the church.

Granted that it is an imperfect picture of Christ's love for us, but I think modern Christians are waaaaay too comfortable with divorce. Divorce is now as common or more common among evangelicals as it is the general population. Living together outside of marriage is almost as common as in the general population. Modern American Christians have devalued marriage. In polls, there was no difference in attitudes toward divorce among American Evangelicals and the general population. American Christians believe as much as the worldly people that marriage is about being fulfilled, and not about keeping commitments.

I would have a hard time voting to call a pastor who is divorced. I would rather call a pastor who has never been married than one who can't keep commitments he made in front of the Lord.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Granted that it is an imperfect picture of Christ's love for us, but I think modern Christians are waaaaay too comfortable with divorce. Divorce is now as common or more common among evangelicals as it is the general population. Living together outside of marriage is almost as common as in the general population. Modern American Christians have devalued marriage. In polls, there was no difference in attitudes toward divorce among American Evangelicals and the general population. American Christians believe as much as the worldly people that marriage is about being fulfilled, and not about keeping commitments.

I agree. But for someone who was divorced before they became a Christian and now is called by God to preach/teach to we just rule them out understanding the "list" in 1 Timothy 3 is in the present tense in the Greek and literally reads "one woman man"?

I would have a hard time voting to call a pastor who is divorced. I would rather call a pastor who has never been married than one who can't keep commitments he made in front of the Lord.

It would depend on the situation surrounding the divorce, but if it was a circumstance under his control I would tend to agree with you.

 

[ZiSunka]

I agree. But for someone who was divorced before they became a Christian and now is called by God to preach/teach to we just rule them out understanding the "list" in 1 Timothy 3 is in the present tense in the Greek and literally reads "one woman man"?

It doesn't really have anything to do with "the list" for me. When you made your vows to your wife didn't you do it in a church in front of the Lord? Even though that didn't mean anything to you at the time, it's still a vow you made to the Lord and now that you are saved, you should think that vow means even more than it did before. Even if you got married in a civil ceremony, that was a vow that you have discarded because it is no longer convenient, because keeping the vow hurt, because your resentments outweighed the pleasure of keeping it.

To me, it's a character issue. I wouldn't vote for that pastor for the same reason I didn't vote to re-elect President Clinton. If a man can't keep the vows he made to one special person that he loved, he will never keep the vow he makes to a group of strangers. A divorced person, especially one that initiates the divorce, for any reason, is less trustworthy in my mind that a person who keeps his vows even though it costs him to do so.

 

[JMRE5150]

It doesn't really have anything to do with "the list" for me. When you made your vows to your wife didn't you do it in a church in front of the Lord? Even though that didn't mean anything to you at the time, it's still a vow you made to the Lord and now that you are saved, you should think that vow means even more than it did before. Even if you got married in a civil ceremony, that was a vow that you have discarded because it is no longer convenient, because keeping the vow hurt, because your resentments outweighed the pleasure of keeping it.

To me, it's a character issue. I wouldn't vote for that pastor for the same reason I didn't vote to re-elect President Clinton. If a man can't keep the vows he made to one special person that he loved, he will never keep the vow he makes to a group of strangers. A divorced person, especially one that initiates the divorce, for any reason, is less trustworthy in my mind that a person who keeps his vows even though it costs him to do so.

There is one fundamental thing wrong with this approach:

When one becomes a Christian, their eyes and hearts are now opened to the truth. They are charged by God to live to a much higher moral standard then they had previously been living out.

To discount a person who now understands and upholds the higher moral standard that christians live by would be to disqualify the man as the non-believer, not the serving christian child that he is now.

As for you breaking it down to character, I would again say that you would be judging based on the non-believing character, and not the born again character you see before you. In my opinion (and personal experience) these are two distinct people. The man before...and the man after.

Again, my divorce was before I was saved. She divorced me because she had been sleeping around on me. (I recall the cops bringing her home from a "job interview" at 3am drunk and unable to walk. Concerned and scared, I asked her what she was doing. She told me she was having sex with a bartender at a bar to "get back at me") I begged her numerous times not to divorce me for the sake of our children, but she refused, and wanted to remarry. Now that I am a believer, who has dedicated my life to these higher moral standards, I wouldn't dare think of divorcing my new wife. I now know the biblical truths, whereas I had no idea of them before.

My Pastor said it best when I presented him with this question...his answer was "This legalistic issue comes down to one thing: Grace. We must show the same grace to others as we have been shown. Jesus would have, and we must too. What would be more pleasing to God? Holding to a "law"? Or showing grace where grace is needed?

I'm glad the Baptist church has exceptions to this issue, as as clearly there is a big difference between knowingly breaking scriptural truths and doing so without even knowing who Christ is.

I appreciate all your opinions on this matter. God bless all of you.

Stay Hungry,
JMRE5150

 

[Andyman_1970]

It doesn't really have anything to do with "the list" for me.

So your criteria for determining if someone is fit for pastoring is something other than God's Word?

When you made your vows to your wife didn't you do it in a church in front of the Lord? Even though that didn't mean anything to you at the time, it's still a vow you made to the Lord and now that you are saved, you should think that vow means even more than it did before. Even if you got married in a civil ceremony,

So before I had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit I was suppose to know the magnitude of those vows?

that was a vow that you have discarded because it is no longer convenient, because keeping the vow hurt, because your resentments outweighed the pleasure of keeping it.

I would respectfully ask you not make any assumptions regarding the circumstances surrounding my divorce.

A divorced person, especially one that initiates the divorce, for any reason, is less trustworthy in my mind that a person who keeps his vows even though it costs him to do so.

Where does John 13:34-35 play into this? Where does the Bible say we're not suppose to trust one another?

 

[If Not For Grace]

The interesting question is: Is it sin to remarry?

IMHO: NO--

If he was not "saved" before--there is no sin. Your life starts when? BORN AGAIN. Nothing before I was born is relavant.

 

[ZiSunka]

So your criteria for determining if someone is fit for pastoring is something other than God's Word?

Hmm, you just said those WEREN'T criteria for pastors, but for elders, etc. Confusing...

So before I had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit I was suppose to know the magnitude of those vows?

Even unsaved people are responsible to keep their vows. That's why the exact some vows are part of the civil ceremony in most places, too.

I would respectfully ask you not make any assumptions regarding the circumstances surrounding my divorce.

You're the one that brought up the circumstances surrounding your divorce. If you don't like me examining them, imagine how uncomfortable you're going to be when a search committee and an entire church start asking you questions about it.

Where does John 13:34-35 play into this? Where does the Bible say we're not suppose to trust one another?

Does it say to trust one another blindly, or can we let past performance be an predictor of future performance? How has your faith changed your ideas about marriage and your first wife?

Let me ask you this question. If you could go back and do it all over again, would you divorce your wife, or would you stick it out with her and do whatever it takes to put the marriage back on track? If your current wife were to do the same sin, would you divorce her, too, or would you forgive her and make the marriage work.

 

[Andyman_1970]

First, I want to say this is a good discussion and I want to take the “edge” off it – so please know my post’s are in a respectful loving tone.

Hmm, you just said those WEREN'T criteria for pastors, but for elders, etc. Confusing...

I believe I said they were written in the Greek in the present tense, meaning that list is a guideline for how this person is living now – do they live out what they believe. I also said the literal reading of that passage is “one woman man” with no mention of the term divorce – a term Jesus specifically uses when referring to it.

I went through and read my posts and I don’t see where I said the 1 Timothy 3 “list” is not criteria – I could be mistaken though.

My point was if we use criteria other than God’s Word (in it’s proper context of course) we then can fall into the “traditions of man” problem and end up creating a new leagalism.

Even unsaved people are responsible to keep their vows. That's why the exact some vows are part of the civil ceremony in most places, too.

I don’t disagree with the responsibility of keeping vows. However unless I’ve been born again, an unbeliever has no clue as to the magnitude and seriousness of those vows – so to assert that somehow they should be held to the same level of accountability as a follower of Jesus who does fully grasp those vows and yet still gets a divorce is not a balanced position.

I’m not held accountable by God for what I did before I said “yes” to Jesus, why then should humans get to do what God Himself has put “as far as the East is from the West”?

You're the one that brought up the circumstances surrounding your divorce. If you don't like me examining them, imagine how uncomfortable you're going to be when a search committee and an entire church start asking you questions about it.

Actually the only circumstances I brought up was the timeline (pre born again). I have no problem sharing the circumstances surrounding my divorce, I do however have a problem with incorrect assumptions being made about those circumstances.

Does it say to trust one another blindly, or can we let past performance be an predictor of future performance? How has your faith changed your ideas about marriage and your first wife?

I would say to not trust a fellow follower of Jesus runs counter to the 45 “one anothers” in the NT that outline how as a community of believers we are to live with one another.

My faith has totally changed how I view marriage, I certainly take it much more seriously and understand God’s intention for a man and a woman and the family they have.

As for my first wife, she was a professed follower of Jesus, however she did not live it out nor did she desire for her husband to become a follower of Jesus. For a while I had some resentment towards her and what she did and the position she put me in financially, and the fact that she never once in 8 years talked with me about Jesus or being saved. It took me a while but I have forgiven my first wife, and desire nothing but the best for her and hope that she returns to God and what it means to be a follower of Jesus.

Let me ask you this question. If you could go back and do it all over again, would you divorce your wife, or would you stick it out with her and do whatever it takes to put the marriage back on track? If your current wife were to do the same sin, would you divorce her, too, or would you forgive her and make the marriage work.[/font]

If I had it to do all over again, I would not have married her to begin with. My wife and I have said to each other and covenanted that there is no action the other could do that would cause the other to start the divorce process.

 

[ZiSunka]

I believe I said they were written in the Greek in the present tense, meaning that list is a guideline for how this person is living now – do they live out what they believe. I also said the literal reading of that passage is “one woman man” with no mention of the term divorce – a term Jesus specifically uses when referring to it.

I went through and read my posts and I don’t see where I said the 1 Timothy 3 “list” is not criteria – I could be mistaken though.

My point was if we use criteria other than God’s Word (in it’s proper context of course) we then can fall into the “traditions of man” problem and end up creating a new leagalism.

As I said, it's a character issue. Pastors have to have the highest character, and a man who divorced his wife, no matter the reason, does not have the character to be pastor. Either he choose the wrong woman to be his wife, or something happened in the marriage that made her go bad, but either way, it reflects poorly on him.

I don’t disagree with the responsibility of keeping vows. However unless I’ve been born again, an unbeliever has no clue as to the magnitude and seriousness of those vows – so to assert that somehow they should be held to the same level of accountability as a follower of Jesus who does fully grasp those vows and yet still gets a divorce is not a balanced position.

I’m not held accountable by God for what I did before I said “yes” to Jesus, why then should humans get to do what God Himself has put “as far as the East is from the West”?

I'm not saying that you should be considered to be in continuing sin. The sin was forgiven, but the consequences of sin go on even after God forgives you. If people who are not saved don't have to be responsible for their vows, then why swear in witnesses at a civil trial? Why have wedding vows for unsaved persons? Why have the president take an oath of office, or any public office for that matter? Vows are vows, you didn't make your vow to God, you made it to your wife. What makes you think that all your old vows are void just because you got divorced?

I would say to not trust a fellow follower of Jesus runs counter to the 45 “one anothers” in the NT that outline how as a community of believers we are to live with one another.

Can you show me where in the Bible it specifically says to fully and completely trust every Christian you meet? Can I love someone without trusting them blindly?

As for my first wife, she was a professed follower of Jesus, however she did not live it out nor did she desire for her husband to become a follower of Jesus. For a while I had some resentment towards her and what she did and the position she put me in financially, and the fact that she never once in 8 years talked with me about Jesus or being saved. It took me a while but I have forgiven my first wife, and desire nothing but the best for her and hope that she returns to God and what it means to be a follower of Jesus.

Are you more put out by her cheating or by the financial position she put you in? Have you realized that if she was cheating, you may have had something to do with it, especially if she was a practicing born-again believer when you married her?

 

[MbiaJc]

As I said, it's a character issue. Pastors have to have the highest character, and a man who divorced his wife, no matter the reason, does not have the character to be pastor. Either he choose the wrong woman to be his wife, or something happened in the marriage that made her go bad, but either way, it reflects poorly on him.

I don’t disagree with the responsibility of keeping vows. However unless I’ve been born again, an unbeliever has no clue as to the magnitude and seriousness of those vows – so to assert that somehow they should be held to the same level of accountability as a follower of Jesus who does fully grasp those vows and yet still gets a divorce is not a balanced position.


I'm not saying that you should be considered to be in continuing sin. The sin was forgiven, but the consequences of sin go on even after God forgives you. If people who are not saved don't have to be responsible for their vows, then why swear in witnesses at a civil trial? Why have wedding vows for unsaved persons? Why have the president take an oath of office, or any public office for that matter? Vows are vows, you didn't make your vow to God, you made it to your wife. What makes you think that all your old vows are void just because you got divorced?



Can you show me where in the Bible it specifically says to fully and completely trust every Christian you meet? Can I love someone without trusting them blindly?



Are you more put out by her cheating or by the financial position she put you in? Have you realized that if she was cheating, you may have had something to do with it, especially if she was a practicing born-again believer when you married her?

Verry true and well said.

 

[MbiaJc]

IMHO: NO--

If he was not "saved" before--there is no sin. Your life starts when? BORN AGAIN. Nothing before I was born is relavant.

Would you mind giving the scripture to back this up?

 

[dwhitaker]

Technically the term "husband of one wife" in the Greek is more accurately phrased "one woman man" - also that "list" in 1 Timothy 3 in the Greek is all in the present tense rather than past tense - the point is from the Greek it would see is how are you living now. That said, if in fact we choose to regard this passage in the past tense, then I would argue very few if any pastors would pass not violating any of the requirements on that "list" - esspecially having children that never misbehave.

Also that same passage talks about being a leader of a congregation (rather than a preacher, which I would say is a different function) is a desire rather than a "call".

I just want to say, "amen" to this.

 

[mesue]

Wow! this is an old one.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I just want to say, "amen" to this.

Thanks for the props there Dr. Whitaker..............

 

[MbiaJc]

I just want to say, "amen" to this.

Quote

Originally Posted by: Andyman_1970

Technically the term "husband of one wife" in the Greek is more accurately phrased "one woman man" - also that "list" in 1 Timothy 3 in the Greek is all in the present tense rather than past tense - the point is from the Greek it would see is how are you living now. That said, if in fact we choose to regard this passage in the past tense, then I would argue very few if any pastors would pass not violating any of the requirements on that "list" - esspecially having children that never misbehave.
Also that same passage talks about being a leader of a congregation (rather than a preacher, which I would say is a different function) is a desire rather than a "call".

Mr PHD it doesn't matter how you transulate "husband of one wife" or "One woman man" doesn't change the meaning of that verse. One woman man is a man that hasn't had but one woman, same as husband of one wife. Who won'ts a man that can't rule his own house trying to rule the house of God?
Who has God ordained as undershepard\pastor of the the Church in every city?

 

[ArchangelGabriel]

Hmmm, I divorced my wife because she committed adultery (hurts to type that sometimes), and am remarried to a wonderful, godly woman. Would the SBC consider that an exception?

Not sure if it matters, but I was saved well after I divorced my wife for sleeping around.

Just curious.

JMRE5150

the bible says thats the only reason that is to be considered acceptable
but thats such a large issue
complicated stuff

 

[ArchangelGabriel]

heres a neat question
-If a man is told that his wife was in a plane crash and died and then is remaried but she isnt dead then is this wrong?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Mr PHD it doesn't matter how you transulate "husband of one wife" or "One woman man" doesn't change the meaning of that verse. One woman man is a man that hasn't had but one woman, same as husband of one wife. Who won'ts a man that can't rule his own house trying to rule the house of God?
Who has God ordained as undershepard\pastor of the the Church in every city?

Except that the Greek is in the present tense, not past tense.

 

[JPPT1974]

heres a neat question
-If a man is told that his wife was in a plane crash and died and then is remaried but she isnt dead then is this wrong?

It is wrong. It is committing adultery. For someone who lost his wife in a supposedly plane crash. Only to have her re-married. Why she doesn't just divorce the man. That way, the mess wouldn't happen in the first place.