Baptismal Regeneration

[Tangible]

Believing in water baptism as a must for salvation is a form of idolatry.

Agreed. No one to my knowledge is claiming that. However, through Baptism we receive many gifts from God, and to refuse Baptism after conversion is a sign of unbelief.

Adding jesus or the spirit into it doesnt help really because you still claim that the spirit or jesus cannot work in us until we physically do something first. makes his work useless without our part.

Whoever said that?

As said in1 cor you lessen the power of the cross. To you there is no power in his work or the spirit until we do our part.

Again, who made this claim?

Having a discussion with you is difficult because you make false accusations and try to put words in the mouths of those who hold to Baptismal Regeneration. You make no effort to actually listen and understand what we are saying. Plus, your posts are just plain hard to read and understand.

 

[Tangible]

How do you get to jtb saying Jesus baptism of the Spirit was only the Pentecost.

I don't think I said 'Jesus baptism of the Spirit was only the Pentecost', but that JTB's prophetic words were speaking specifically about Pentecost as shown below.

Acts 1:4-5 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

It's quite clear.

 

[Schroeder]

I don't think I said 'Jesus baptism of the Spirit was only the Pentecost', but that JTB's prophetic words were speaking specifically about Pentecost as shown below.

Acts 1:4-5 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

It's quite clear.

yes and you ignored it when Paul brought it up in acts 11. He used it to describe what just happened to the gentiles. They received the spirit without water. Acts 15 shows they were saved at that point. So it wasn't specifically about Pentecost.

 

[Tangible]

Acts 11 shows that the Holy Spirit was not given only to the Jewish Christians on the day of Pentecost, but that the gift continued to the gentile believers as well. Acts 11 is like a second Pentecost.

As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

But again, no one is claiming that God does not or cannot give his Spirit without the water in Baptism. That is your own false accusation.

 

[Schroeder]

Agreed. No one to my knowledge is claiming that. However, through Baptism we receive many gifts from God, and to refuse Baptism after conversion is a sign of unbelief.

Whoever said that?

Again, who made this claim?

Having a discussion with you is difficult because you make false accusations and try to put words in the mouths of those who hold to Baptismal Regeneration. You make no effort to actually listen and understand what we are saying. Plus, your posts are just plain hard to read and understand.

so it's a command and if you dont do it your not saved. What is your definition of regeneration. You think baptism means water only. Out gifts are from God through the spirit. Water dipping doesn't give us anything. No scripture for that. So are you saying Once we are saved we must be water baptized to receive the gifts of God. I am using my phone at moment for discussion so it's not very organized. Sorry.

 

[Schroeder]

Acts 11 shows that the Holy Spirit was not given only to the Jewish Christians on the day of Pentecost, but that the gift continued to the gentile believers as well. Acts 11 is like a second Pentecost.

As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

But again, no one is claiming that God does not or cannot give his Spirit without the water in Baptism. That is your own false accusation.

yes true. It fulfilled jeols prophecy. Not jtb prophecy. It was to reveal jesus to isreal. God only gives his spirit to those who truly believe in his son. Water is never involved. My accusation is your faith in water Baptism to give you something for doing it when there is no scripture support for this. So do you believe that one today can receive the spirit when he believes on Christ and his work for our sins without the work of water Baptism. And it's a yes or no answer.you seem to hold water Baptism to a high standard or as a must. You know the staff Moses had that healed people. they later worshiped it. Have it more power then it was meant for. Kind of like that.

 

[Tangible]

so it's a command and if you dont do it your not saved.

Again, who is saying that? Not me.

What is your definition of regeneration.

Regeneration is when God acts subjectively to apply the benefits of the works of Jesus Christ to an individual.

You think baptism means water only.

Baptism means 'washing with water'. It can be used figuratively, and is done so several times in scripture, but the natural meaning necessarily includes water. Christian Baptism, as instituted by our Lord, is a washing of water with the word. It is not the water that makes a Baptism but the Word of God in and with the water that makes a Baptism.

Out gifts are from God through the spirit. Water dipping doesn't give us anything. No scripture for that.

Eph 5:26, for one.

So are you saying Once we are saved we must be water baptized to receive the gifts of God.

No. Saying that God gives his gifts through Baptism as plainly shown in scripture is not the same as saying that "we must be water baptized to receive the gifts of God."

To say that if you come to my house I will give you ten dollars is not to say that I will not give you ten dollars if you don't come to my house, or that if you come to my house I will only give you ten dollars and nothing else.

Can you see the difference?

I am using my phone at moment for discussion so it's not very organized. Sorry.

I know that can be frustrating.

 

[Schroeder]

Acts 11 shows that the Holy Spirit was not given only to the Jewish Christians on the day of Pentecost, but that the gift continued to the gentile believers as well. Acts 11 is like a second Pentecost.

As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

But again, no one is claiming that God does not or cannot give his Spirit without the water in Baptism. That is your own false accusation.

so how does this not show what you said about it being specific to Pentecost is wrong. What jtb said about jesus giving the spirit was to all who called on his name. All being jew and gentile.

 

[Tangible]

so how does this not show what you said about it being specific to Pentecost is wrong.

Well, there is the fact that Jesus is recorded in scripture plainly saying that it referred to Pentecost. If you don't believe that, your argument is not with me but with holy scripture.

What jtb said about jesus giving the spirit was to all who called on his name. All being jew and gentile.

Agreed, unless you try to make 'calling on his name' to be a cause of Jesus giving the Spirit. The gift of the Spirit is part of God's work in regenerating us spiritually dead sinners.

 

[Schroeder]

Again, who is saying that? Not me. Regeneration is when God acts subjectively to apply the benefits of the works of Jesus Christ to an individual. Baptism means 'washing with water'. It can be used figuratively, and is done so several times in scripture, but the natural meaning necessarily includes water. Christian Baptism, as instituted by our Lord, is a washing of water with the word. It is not the water that makes a Baptism but the Word of God in and with the water that makes a Baptism. Eph 5:26, for one.No. Saying that God gives his gifts through Baptism as plainly shown in scripture is not the same as saying that "we must be water baptized to receive the gifts of God."

To say that if you come to my house I will give you ten dollars is not to say that I will not give you ten dollars if you don't come to my house, or that if you come to my house I will only give you ten dollars and nothing else.

Can you see the difference?I know that can be frustrating.

Baptism means to immerse into something. Water is usually the norm. regeneration means to be made new from what was. Where did you get your definition. The water doesn't work without the word. The word being what actually. The right words to say while performing it. So the word doesn't work without water as well then. Is this before salvation or after one is saved. I don't get that. So you just believe it's through water and the word but I don't have to to get the same thing. Just unlikely I will. I need internet be easier to discuss.

 

[Schroeder]

Well, there is the fact that Jesus is recorded in scripture plainly saying that it referred to Pentecost. If you don't believe that, your argument is not with me but with holy scripture.Agreed, unless you try to make 'calling on his name' to be a cause of Jesus giving the Spirit. The gift of the Spirit is part of God's work in regenerating us spiritually dead sinners.

yes but scripture shows paul useing it to mean something as well. So it isnt specifically about pentecost aa you say. When we believe or call on his name dames to me we receive the spirit. This is Spirit Baptism. It is not mention in scripture as a rite because God does it.we don't participate in it. just receive it. And it is not part of it it is all of it in regeneration. Titus 3. We do continue to grow in faith which could be seen as a continued regeneration.

 

[Tangible]

yes but scripture shows paul useing it to mean something as well. So it isnt specifically about pentecost aa you say.

See above.

When we believe or call on his name dames to me we receive the spirit.

Not unless we are our own savior. If anything we do causes us to receive the Spirit, then we are in fact the giver or the giving-permitter of the Spirit. This puts man in charge of his being given the Spirit, effectively making man his own savior.

This is Spirit Baptism. It is not mention in scripture as a rite because God does it.we don't participate in it. just receive it.

Exactly right. God does it all, and does it through his Word. And Baptism, the Word in and with water (especially infant baptism!), is a very good example of how we don't participate in it, we just receive it.

And it is not part of it it is all of it in regeneration. Titus 3.

Yes, Titus 3 is a wonderful baptismal passage.

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We do continue to grow in faith which could be seen as a continued regeneration.

Exactly. Just like in Romans 6.

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Schroeder]

See above.Not unless we are our own savior. If anything we do causes us to receive the Spirit, then we are in fact the giver or the giving-permitter of the Spirit. This puts man in charge of his being given the Spirit, effectively making man his own savior.Exactly right. God does it all, and does it through his Word. And Baptism, the Word in and with water (especially infant baptism!), is a very good example of how we don't participate in it, we just receive it.Yes, Titus 3 is a wonderful baptismal passage.

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.Exactly. Just like in Romans 6.

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

you seemed to have place alot of theology on eph. 5:26. A whole lot. rom. 10 says in verse 13 all who call on his name will be saved. If you read rom 8 you see the spirit giving us the regeneration. Read John 7:38-39 it shows us how we get the spirit. Which goes with rom. 10. So where is your water and the word in all those passages. You have based your theology on one verse it seems. And I am not sure how you say we don't participate in it when washing in water directly involves us. If we don't do it he can't do his part. So it seems to me in what your saying. You have skipped alot of my questions in last posts that deal with this. Where as to just believe in his son doesn't involve us in dealing with sin. Which is the issue and reason for the need for regeneration is it not. John 6:28-29. We believe and the work of God is spirit baptism. John 7:38-39.

 

[Schroeder]

Eph 5:25-26 the word water or of water is used in a genitive sense. And he speaks of the church not each individual. Christ gave his life for the church. Sanctified through his blood. The washing of water is an analogy of his work. His blood cleansed us internally. Like water cleans us outside. Acts 20:28 speaks of this passage. The word of God works in us to keep us pure on the inside like water keeps us clean on the outside. The church will not stay pure outside of Scripture. You can see this when churches fail to teach from scripture.

 

[Rev Randy]

Eph 5:25-26 the word water or of water is used in a genitive sense. And he speaks of the church not each individual. Christ gave his life for the church. Sanctified through his blood. The washing of water is an analogy of his work. His blood cleansed us internally. Like water cleans us outside. Acts 20:28 speaks of this passage. The word of God works in us to keep us pure on the inside like water keeps us clean on the outside. The church will not stay pure outside of Scripture. You can see this when churches fail to teach from scripture.

Imagine that. I will give you extra credit for not saying it means Amniotic fluid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwxHzo0QVYY

 

[Tangible]

you seemed to have place alot of theology on eph. 5:26. A whole lot. rom. 10 says in verse 13 all who call on his name will be saved. If you read rom 8 you see the spirit giving us the regeneration. Read John 7:38-39 it shows us how we get the spirit. Which goes with rom. 10. So where is your water and the word in all those passages. You have based your theology on one verse it seems. And I am not sure how you say we don't participate in it when washing in water directly involves us. If we don't do it he can't do his part. So it seems to me in what your saying. You have skipped alot of my questions in last posts that deal with this. Where as to just believe in his son doesn't involve us in dealing with sin. Which is the issue and reason for the need for regeneration is it not. John 6:28-29. We believe and the work of God is spirit baptism. John 7:38-39.

You seem to spend a lot of time and energy pitting regeneration apart from Baptism against regeneration through Baptism. You really needn't do that. Both are ways through which we are regenerated. It doesn't have to be one or the other. God doesn't have to only work through one means. Scripture clearly says that God regenerates us through the proclaimed word - preaching the Gospel - and also that God regenerates through Holy Baptism. They are both equally valid and equally efficacious means.

 

[Tangible]

Eph 5:25-26 the word water or of water is used in a genitive sense. And he speaks of the church not each individual. Christ gave his life for the church. Sanctified through his blood. The washing of water is an analogy of his work. His blood cleansed us internally. Like water cleans us outside. Acts 20:28 speaks of this passage. The word of God works in us to keep us pure on the inside like water keeps us clean on the outside. The church will not stay pure outside of Scripture. You can see this when churches fail to teach from scripture.

Please show me where "through water and the word" is meant to be figurative. Why can't we just take God speaking through scripture at his word? Why do we have to make it all figurative and symbolic? Isn't the Lord, the God of Hosts, capable of working through any means he sees fit? Why doubt his clear words?

That's what saddens me about your whole position. It's so rationalistic. We find it difficult to reconcile the plain words of scripture with what we think it should say, so we rationalize it away by saying "well, this obviously can't mean what it says, so it must be figurative or symbolic."

Theology doesn't have to be done that way. God is bigger than our own insecurities and inability to comprehend. That's what faith is all about, after all.

I'll grant that it takes faith to believe that God can attach his saving Word to a little splash of common water. It offends our human reason. Yet God grants us faith to believe his word and the promises he makes to us in his communication to us. And if God's word and promises turn out not to be true, then we are all dead in our sins and nothing matters anyway, as Paul says, we are of all people most to be pitied.

 

[Schroeder]

Please show me where "through water and the word" is meant to be figurative. Why can't we just take God speaking through scripture at his word? Why do we have to make it all figurative and symbolic? Isn't the Lord, the God of Hosts, capable of working through any means he sees fit? Why doubt his clear words?

That's what saddens me about your whole position. It's so rationalistic. We find it difficult to reconcile the plain words of scripture with what we think it should say, so we rationalize it away by saying "well, this obviously can't mean what it says, so it must be figurative or symbolic."

Theology doesn't have to be done that way. God is bigger than our own insecurities and inability to comprehend. That's what faith is all about, after all.

I'll grant that it takes faith to believe that God can attach his saving Word to a little splash of common water. It offends our human reason. Yet God grants us faith to believe his word and the promises he makes to us in his communication to us. And if God's word and promises turn out not to be true, then we are all dead in our sins and nothing matters anyway, as Paul says, we are of all people most to be pitied.

well John 7:38-39, 1 cor. 12 gal 3:2,14,22 are clear. Eph. 1:13-14 is clear. So us let us take them for what they say. Let's not add toa page that isn't all that clear like eph. 5:25-26. That is my point.we are to teach the truth.which is why we debate or discuss such things. His means to work through was Christ and then the Holy Spirit. Every where I read About the promise it involves the spirit. Gal. 3:14,22 eph.1:13-14. Etc. I will set my hope on those.

 

[Rev Randy]

well John 7:38-39, 1 cor. 12 gal 3:2,14,22 are clear. Eph. 1:13-14 is clear. So us let us take them for what they say. Let's not add toa page that isn't all that clear like eph. 5:25-26. That is my point.we are to teach the truth.which is why we debate or discuss such things. His means to work through was Christ and then the Holy Spirit. Every where I read About the promise it involves the spirit. Gal. 3:14,22 eph.1:13-14. Etc. I will set my hope on those.

Then let it be taught as written and taught for 1500 years before the German wackadoodles invented an odd theory.

 

[Schroeder]

See above.Not unless we are our own savior. If anything we do causes us to receive the Spirit, then we are in fact the giver or the giving-permitter of the Spirit. This puts man in charge of his being given the Spirit, effectively making man his own savior

so john 7:38-39 is a lie. or just not completly true, which is still a lie. how many verses do you want to ignore saying when you believe you will be saved. this belief of course is not a simple believe he exsists but to except him as the sacrifice for sin etc etc. the demons believe but still are not saved. God see the heart. How are we the giver of it when we dont do anything. in john 6:28 JESUS said that God asks us to believe iin the one he sent. You dont really explain yourself wellon this.

Exactly right. God does it all, and does it through his Word. And Baptism, the Word in and with water (especially infant baptism!), is a very good example of how we don't participate in it, we just receive it.Yes, Titus 3 is a wonderful baptismal passage.

really doesnt male since. so if we simply believe seeing how God knows the heart its us doing all the work yet actually doing a physical act is us doing nothing. Titus three has nothing to do with water except to use the word. You will use one passage that is speaking of marriage and use it to prove water baptism.

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.Exactly. Just like in Romans 6.

funny no one will explain how the act of getting water baptized is not a righteous act which according to the passage they are useing to defend it says it will not save them. maybe because its abot the spirit and the work of christ and the giving of the spirit from above whne we believe in christ work for our sins. Thats the issue of beiing saved. we cannot do anything to DEAL WITH SIN. we accept christ did it for us. when we do the SPirit is given from above and washes our sins away and gives us a new begining. Nothing we do no act on our part but for us to BELIEVE in Christ work for us.

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

the glorious work of the Spirit not water baptism.