Baptismal Regeneration

[MarkRohfrietsch]

your last part of jesus speaking of baptism of spirit. Paul recalls the same passage in acts 11. This where the gentiles are shown to be spirit baptized. They received the spirit before they where water baptized. Read acts 15:8. Read john 7:38-389. When we believe we receive the spirit. This is spirit baptism. It's is shown we all receive the spirit when we believe. We believe and are baptized. Not believe and go get water baptized. That's why jesus emphasis on belief in mark. Jtb said jesus would baptize all with the spirit. In John 7 it shows us when. Jews first in acts gentiles in chapter 10.

What about the first seven eighths of his post?

So it was just added as an aside?i suppose when Christ said to be saved one must believe AND BE BAPTIZED was also just me making some odd point out of pointless text. (Sarcasm intended)

It's kind of like how our cat eats; we put his feed in a bowl, there are round bits and squarish bits. He picks out the ones he likes best (the square ones).

The way that most use Scripture that claim to be "Sola Scriptura" is the way my cat eats, only the most palatable are suitable for consumption. I think a better term would be "Quasi Scriptura" or "Demi Scriptura".

I'm reminded of the movie True Grit;
Mattie Ross: I will not bandy words with a drunkard.
LaBoeuf: That's real smart. You've done nothing when you've bested a fool.

Luther said something very similar, but the English translation uses somewhat "plainer" language than that which is allowed here at CF.

 

[Schroeder]

So it was just added as an aside?i suppose when Christ said to be saved one must believe AND BE BAPTIZED was also just me making some odd point out of pointless text. (Sarcasm intended)

No baptism is used to mean in water or spirit and just what it actually means immersion. He used it to speak of his sacrifice. jtb used it to mean water. It's in context. if it is in water it says so. Other wise we use the actual meaning or from context of Scripture. We are to believe and when we do we are baptize. see you can believe without putting your faith in it. As in you believe but will not accept him into your heart. You can be dunked under water but not truly believe. So one must believe and be baptized to be saved. But one must truly believe and accept Christ into his heart before he will be baptized. We are baptized from above. God knows the heart so he knows who to baptize. Acts 15:8. So if you read John 7:38-39 to what jtb says and what 1 cor 12 gal 3:2,14,22 and eph 1:13-14 with others. We believe and receive from above the spirit which gives us a rebirth.

 

[Schroeder]

It's kind of like how our cat eats; we put his feed in a bowl, there are round bits and squarish bits. He picks out the ones he likes best (the square ones).

The way that most use Scripture that claim to be "Sola Scriptura" is the way my cat eats, only the most palatable are suitable for consumption. I think a better term would be "Quasi Scriptura" or "Demi Scriptura".



Luther said something very similar, but the English translation uses somewhat "plainer" language than that which is allowed here at CF.

so he is being a
Smart a.. and I show scripture. Well I guess we know who is clear.

 

[Schroeder]

So it was just added as an aside?i suppose when Christ said to be saved one must believe AND BE BAPTIZED was also just me making some odd point out of pointless text. (Sarcasm intended)

No baptism is used to mean in water or spirit and just what it actually means immersion. He used it to speak of his sacrifice. jtb used it to mean water. It's in context. if it is in water it says so. Other wise we use the actual meaning or from context of Scripture. We are to believe and when we do we are baptize. see you can believe without putting your faith in it. As in you believe but will not accept him into your heart. You can be dunked under water but not truly believe. So one must believe and be baptized to be saved. But one must truly believe and accept Christ into his heart before he will be baptized. We are baptized from above. God knows the heart so he knows who to baptize. Acts 15:8. So if you read John 7:38-39 to what jtb says and what 1 cor 12 gal 3:2,14,22 and eph 1:13-14 with others. We believe and receive from above the spirit which gives us a rebirth.

 

[Rev Randy]

No baptism is used to mean in water or spirit and just what it actually means immersion. He used it to speak of his sacrifice. jtb used it to mean water. It's in context. if it is in water it says so. Other wise we use the actual meaning or from context of Scripture. We are to believe and when we do we are baptize. see you can believe without putting your faith in it. As in you believe but will not accept him into your heart. You can be dunked under water but not truly believe. So one must believe and be baptized to be saved. But one must truly believe and accept Christ into his heart before he will be baptized. We are baptized from above. God knows the heart so he knows who to baptize. Acts 15:8. So if you read John 7:38-39 to what jtb says and what 1 cor 12 gal 3:2,14,22 and eph 1:13-14 with others. We believe and receive from above the spirit which gives us a rebirth.

So if it means water it says so? Now where, pray tell, did you get that info? Did John Baptize Jesus in water? Does it say so? Did the Holy Ghost descend upon Him?

I cannot understand why people desire to separate Baptism and Chrismation.
The Holy Spirit was always intended to be a part of Baptism. Just like it happened at Christ's baptism, so should it happen at ours. Are we not Baptized into His death and Resurrection? Are we not born of water and Spirit? It happens together. As it happened to Christ. There is but one baptism. You can read that in your scriptures.
It's born of water and spirit not half born then the other half later. It is called being born again. If one is baptized, they should know this. But sadly they are told otherwise and deny what God has already done unto them.

 

[Rev Randy]

I'm learning some new grammatical rules in this thread. I guess if I say, "I flew to new Zealand", it means I flapped my arms unless I add: "on a 747".
Time for a break to take a bath........in water.

 

[Tangible]

... and maybe do some laundry using water, and maybe wash my car using water, all the while breathing air of course, and walking on the ground.

 

[Rev Randy]

... and maybe do some laundry using water, and maybe wash my car using water, all the while breathing air of course, and walking on the ground.

Not unless it specially says so. All other times it means using Jell-o.

 

[Tangible]

Not unless it specially says so. All other times it means using Jell-o.

That would be a ridiculous assumption! Jell-o indeed!

Unless I stipulate washing my clothes and my car in water, the obvious assumption would be that I washed them in a spiritual manner only. Haven't you seen all those spiritual-only laundro-mats and car washes around town?

And unless I stipulate walking on the ground, the natural assumption would be that I am walking on water, since I try to do everything just as Jesus would do.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Tang and Rev. R. Thanks. Talking with some protestants is like trying to heard cats. Herding Sheep can be hard enough (ask any Pastor) but a congregation of free thinking cats?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

so he is being a
Smart a.. and I show scripture. Well I guess we know who is clear.

Here's a cleaned up version; "If one does battle with filth, win or lose, one will be soiled".

To paraphrase, "If one get's into a peeing match with a skunk, you will not win".

To translate into context, some fights are better left un-fought... for every one.

 

[Schroeder]

Here's a cleaned up version; "If one does battle with filth, win or lose, one will be soiled".

To paraphrase, "If one get's into a peeing match with a skunk, you will not win".

To translate into context, some fights are better left un-fought... for every one.

more like if someone steps in the ring as big as you step out talking smack. Seems more like this situation.

 

[Rev Randy]

Tang and Rev. R. Thanks. Talking with some protestants is like trying to heard cats. Herding Sheep can be hard enough (ask any Pastor) but a congregation of free thinking cats?

Maybe we should use the square bits?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Maybe we should use the square bits?

I suspect they would fight over them, growling, snarling, hissing and spitting... more than usual!

 

[Rev Randy]

I suspect they would fight over them, growling, snarling, hissing and spitting... more than usual!

A bucket of water would cure that.

 

[Tangible]

A bucket of water would cure that.

A bucket of water with maybe a few choice words.


Wait ...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

A bucket of water would cure that.

A bucket of water with maybe a few choice words.


Wait ...

I love you guys!

 

[Schroeder]

So what is John 7:37-39 speaking of. Why is it not Spirit baptism. How do you get to jtb saying Jesus baptism of the Spirit was only the Pentecost. The apostles where,the first few, water baptized under jtb. Never did Kraus of anyone else water baptized them under in the name of Christ later. If they didn't need water baptized in the name of Christ why do I. So if John 7 says when I believe I would receive the spirit why is that not true. You arenot to add to scripture. Each verse is true without the need to guess or add to it.

 

[Schroeder]

Believing in water baptism as a must for salvation is a form of idolatry. Adding jesus or the spirit into it doesnt help really because you still claim that the spirit or jesus cannot work in us until we physically do something first.makes his work useless without our part. As said in1 cor you lessen the power of the cross. To you there is no power in his work or the spirit until we do our part.

 

[Tangible]

(I'm going to regret this.)

I honestly can't understand much of what you posted. (Who the heck is Kraus?) but your first sentence seems clear enough.

John 7:37-39 (ESV)

On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Not really sure what is unclear about this or how it might be used to call into question the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. The Spirit had not yet been given to the Church, that would happen at Pentecost. Christian Baptism had not yet been instituted by Christ.

In assuming your interpretation focuses on the part about "Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive," we would have no problem with that statement (obviously, it's scripture), unless you were to imply that believing in Jesus Christ causes the giving of the Spirit. Believing is not the cause, it is a result of being justified by God, who gives the Spirit.

Baptismal regeneration does not claim that the Spirit is given exclusively in Baptism, but that the Spirit is given through the means of the Word of God, which comes to us in the proclaimed Gospel and through the Word with water in Baptism.