Baptism

[theseed]

So what you "pro-batpism" people are saying is that- I , a person who has been baptized, and believes in God will get into heaven; while a person who is also religous and believes in Jesus/God and the bible and everything, wont get into heaven?

The thief that hung with Jesus was not baptized, but Jesus said to him, "today you will be with me in paradise"

 

[KennySe]

So what you "pro-batpism" people are saying is that- I , a person who has been baptized, and believes in God will get into heaven; while a person who is also religous and believes in Jesus/God and the bible and everything, wont get into heaven?

theseed's answer is correct.

***

The Catholic Church's belief is that the "good thief" received "baptism by desire". He did not have the opportunity to be "baptized by water".

And if a person were to be killed professing Jesus as Lord, dying a martyr's death, this is called "baptism of blood.

***

Returning to your question above, my direct reply is: why would one choose to NOT be baptized if it is available?

Jesus said go forth and preach and baptize.
Is this sufficient reason to be baptized?

 

[surferjeff]

it shouldnt matter when where orhow you get baptised as long as u do sometime in ur life

 

[thereselittleflower]

So what you "pro-batpism" people are saying is that- I , a person who has been baptized, and believes in God will get into heaven; while a person who is also religous and believes in Jesus/God and the bible and everything, wont get into heaven?

No We are not saying this at all.

What we are saying is that Baptism is required, but God is not bound by the requirements He places on us. He can impart the same salvific Grace to someone who has not been baptised through no fault of their own . ie they were unable to be baptized, or they were unaware of the need, but had they been aware of the need, they would have done so.

Only God knows the heart, and so only God knows what is really in the heart of one who does not receive Baptism before death. The Catholic Church does not relegate to hell anyone who has not believed or accepted what She teaches. But those do believe and accept Her teachings and obey them, are assured heaven if they continue in the truth.

I firmly believe God holds us accountable for the truth we know . .

If one postitively knows the salvific neccesity of baptism, yet refuses it, could that one be said to be truly a believer and follower of Christ who commanded baptism?


Peace in Him!

 

[workman]

Krystina,

Sorry its taken me a couple days to get back to you. Remember me, the "newbie" called "workman?" Anyhow, I know that many have given their views and many different things have been said. Its important to always check opinions (even mine) with the word of God, not holding someone's view as better because of "who" they are. What I have written is long, but bear with me, as this is good stuff and its all taken out of the word of God. But you don't have to take my word for it....

CHRISTIAN BAPTISM:

Q: Why should I be baptized?

"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day." ~Acts 2:38-41

Comments:

In Acts 2:38 and other passages connect baptism as the final necessary step of faith in the spiritual "new birth" process. This is the moment in time where a repentant believer receives "forgiveness of sins" by placing faith in Jesus Christ during baptism and after having been baptized "washed or cleansed" receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling is also spoken of as "Christ lives in me." (Galatians 2:20) Thus the phrase "Jesus is in my heart."

Q: Is belief necessary? And how is one baptized?

Notice the prereq here for baptism: "Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" (Footnoted verse 37: Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.") And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. ~Acts 8:36-38

Is belief necessary? Absolutely!

Consider what the bible says about the importance of faith: "…without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:6 & 11:1)

Upon examining the passages on baptism in the bible, one would logically conclude that unless one has faith in Jesus and his claims the baptism would be nothing but a bath and have no justification for the ceremony. Consider the connection of this verse in Mark 16:16: "Whoever BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Water baptism has no effect on unbelievers…belief is a necessary component of joining the covenant through baptism for the promise of salvation. Notice the emphasis and the order is not on baptism first but belief first which is what makes baptism a unique ceremony and not just getting "wet".

Finally, as stated best in John 1:12 it is those who receive the message and believe in Jesus that have the ‘right’ to become a child of God. (Refer to "Becoming a child of God" below)

Comments on How is one baptized?

1) The Importance of the name:

As noted in Acts 2:38 one is baptized "in the name of Jesus". For there is no other "name" given to men by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

Notice another verse says we are washed...in the name of the Lord Jesus: "...But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

Those who origianlly had John's baptism were "rebaptized" in the name of Jesus so that they could receive the promised Holy Spirit See Acts 19:1-5 quoted here:

"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus."

Conclusion on the "name":

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." ~Matthew 28:19-20

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ in considered the same as in "name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" as spoken of through Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20. I believe Jesus phrased it specifically that way in Matthew (even though we don't see this repeated by his disciples in the book of Acts) to show that the authority and command to baptize comes with full authority from the triune Godhead: the Father in agreement with the Son and Holy Spirit. Notice the wording in the passage does NOT say "in the names" (plural), but in the "name". Jesus is the Physical representation of the Godhead and the "name" given to us for salvation. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all in agreement when you are baptized into Jesus you are baptized with all authority from the misterious triune God who is one God. That is why at the first proclaimation of baptism in Acts 2:38 Peter is led by the Holy Spirit to say that they must be baptized in the "name of Jesus..." This was not "misspeak" from Peter who was full of the Spirit when he spoke. It was deliberate as Jesus is the bodily representation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Colossians 2:9 states:

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"

So baptism in the Name of the "Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" is summed up in the NAME "Jesus" which is given to us as our savior to believe in for salvation. Thus baptizing in the "name of Jesus" OR in the "name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" are equal and valid and produce the same result if faith exists in Jesus on behalf of the receipient. I believe this proper faith in who Jesus is was mentioned quite well by others in the group.

2) Importance of Water Immersion:

As demonstrated with the Ethiopian believer above as well as 1 Peter 3:20 and Acts 10:47-48 baptism in the name of Jesus is clearly performed in water.

The meaning of the word baptism comes from the greek word "to dip" it means to immerse. This is how the Jews have always baptized new converts as well. They were completely dunked under water and came back up. This is immersion. (Sprinkling and pouring were added later by the Catholic church and were not the norm of the early church...if curious ask me later.)

The beauty of immersion and its symbolism is described in Romans chapter 6:1-11. Because Baptism is described as a "death burial and ressurection" we understand that one is to go down under the water and come back up to give full representation to its true meaning of the death, burial and resurrection as intended and as pictured in Romans 6: 1-11.

Since baptism is described as a "new birth" immersion demonstrates this being similar to a baby breaking out of the bag of "waters," we come up a "new creation" as "born again" in Christ out of the water.

Immersion is also the perfect symbol of the believer's sins being "washed" away completely since the whole body is submerged. The whole body is covered in water to symbolize a complete covering of the blood of Christ on this believer; to demonstrate complete forgiveness and "newness of life".
(Thank you Jesus!)

3) Who baptizes the believer:

In all biblical examples a believing Christian baptizes the believer upon a profession of faith in Christ. No command was given for it to be only from a man, a priest, or a pastor, however in each case the baptizer is already a believer in Christ.

Baptism into the name of Jesus is not a "denominational" issue. You'll notice from above that baptism's purpose is not to add you to a particular church. Christ adds us to His body (the church) upon baptism. (See Acts 2:41 from top of page.) It has no "denominational" bounds...those sadly are man-made. In heaven we will all be part of "one body".

Q: If I believe in Jesus when & where should I get baptized?

Consider this for timing: "At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then IMMEDIATELY he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God--he and his whole family." ~Acts 16:30

Acts 22:16 "And now WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."

It is clear the implication found in the bible is "immediately" after one professes belief and a repentance or rather a desire to follow the teachings of Christ rather than go his own way in sin. Any body of water will do: you can be fully submerged in a bathtub full of water, a jacuzzi, swimming pool, ocean, lake, river, or a baptismal pool at a church. Since the baptism is considered a confession of faith in Christ and a pledge to follow him, I think it is neat to have family and friends present at the occasion, but this is not necessary for it to be effective.

Q: What is the meaning behind baptism, if any?

1) It’s a funeral and a new birth:

"…don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[1] that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. ~Romans 6:3-11 Footnotes: 1. Romans 6:6 Or "be rendered powerless"

2) It’s a cutting off of our old way of life that chased after sin.

"In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[1] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. ~Colossians 2:11-12 Footnotes 1. Colossians 2:11 Or "the flesh"

3) It’s a response to the message or a pledge made by a believer.

"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[1] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," ~1 Peter 3:21 Footnotes 1. 1 Peter 3:21 Or "response"

The beautiful thing about baptism is its God-given meaning for the believer. As noted in the passes quoted earlier it pictures the uniting of a believer in Christ’s baptism of suffering via the death, burial and resurrection, thus one is "cutting off" his old self-life of sin and putting on or being clothed with Christ and his righteousness. Because of its connection to the "death" of the old way of life, baptism is a "rebirth", an old spiritual life died and a new spiritual life in Christ has begun. Because a believer has chosen to receive this forgiveness being offered in Christ, baptism is also a demonstration of his or her response or "pledge" of commitment to trust in Christ to be saved.


Q: I’m such a sinner, shouldn’t I clean up my life first and then get baptized?

Consider this verse: "At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," ~Titus 3:3-5

The bible also states that in God’s eyes: "…There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good not even one." (Romans 3:10-12) The fact is we all must individually come to God to be "cleansed" because we CANNOT "clean up" our own life. That is the very reason Jesus Christ died for us, for the bible says this was how he demonstrated his love for us, "in that while we were yet SINNERS, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

Some misunderstand the meaning of repentance and believe they must "clean up" their sinful life before coming to Jesus. Repentance is acknowledging that one cannot be righteous before God by continually chasing after sin, or by following any other religion, creed, the laws of Moses or even good deeds. One must decide mentally to Repent or "change his mind" and turn away from these ways that cannot save and turn to God who can save us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ.

(more in part two) (told you I've been studying this subject...and you asked the question.)

 

[workman]

Just in case I haven't gone on long enough

Here are More Promises Demonstrating the Process of Becoming part of the family of God:

1. You have the right to become a child of God if you believe and receive the testimony about Jesus as truth: (Note: Having the right to "become" one doesn't mean you already ARE one. Salvation is a "process"...I could discuss this further...but here is a short form below)

John 1:12
"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

2. Repentant Belief and baptism together make you a "born again" child of God:

Galatians 3:26-29
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:6-7
"Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba,[1] Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir."
Footnote: 1. Galatians 4:6 Aramaic for "Father"

DEFINITIONS*

Repent: "signifies to change one’s mind or purpose…involving a change for the better, an amendment…repentance from sin"

Baptism: "consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence (from bapto, to dip)…"

Remission: "a dismissal, release from" is used of the forgiveness of sins and translated "remission"

Forgiveness: "…firstly signifies the remission of the punishment due to sinful conduct, the deliverance of the sinner from the penalty Divinely, and therefore righteously, imposed; secondly, it involves the complete removal of the cause of offence; such remission is based upon the vicarious and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ."

Regeneration: "new birth…is used of spiritual regeneration" (translated "rebirth" in NIV translation…could refer to being ‘born again’)

Resurrection: "…denotes a raising up or rising…of the resurrection from the dead of Christ."

*taken from Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and new Testament Words

Krystina,

If you or anyone else would like to hear more of what the bible has to say about baptism, (yes, there is more that can be learned at a deeper level!) Jesus, or anything related to the bible or Christianity I would love to talk to you again as would many of us here in this forum. As a rule, it is best to test everything you hear, no matter who you heard it from, by reading the scriptures yourself to determine facts from opinions and church traditions. As Jesus has said, "Seek & you will find." May God richly bless you!

 

[workman]

I agree much with you Therese in regards to Christian baptism!

Consider even what the bible had to say about even the importance of John's baptism as merely a precursor:

"All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John."

The bible also teaches in different ways (some Old Testament & some New Testament) that God has shown mercy to those who are ignorant or have not "heard" the righteous requirments of God. That does not mean that those who do know (in the case of baptism in the name of Jesus), can get away with disobediance. Consider the Pharasee vs. those without the law example in Romans chapter 2:5-13

"But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."


Comments regarding the "thief" on the cross:

1) Jesus had authority to forgive sins while on earth. That was one of the signs of the messiah. (See Luke 5:24 below)

"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."

2) The Old Covenent was still in effect for the thief. The New Covenent made in the blood of Christ did not come into effect until he died and rose again. See Hebrews 9:15-18 below:

"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a NEW Covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--NOW THAT HE HAS DIED as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the DEATH of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; IT NEVER TAKES EFFECT WHILE THE ONE WHO MADE IT IS LIVING. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood."

The New Covenent commands were given by Jesus AFTER he appeared to his disciples as the risen Lord. Its was then he instituded baptism in his "name" representing the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" as the way to make disciples as in Matthew 28:19-20.

Matthew 28:18-20
"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Thus the theif was not under the "new covenant" when he died and didn't have the command to be baptised in the name of Jesus. Thus he need not obey it.

3) The only baptism that the thief would have had the opportunity to hear of and been commanded to do was John's baptism of repentance. Since we don't know when the thief was arrested and even when he came to belive in Jesus we don't know if he had John's baptism. IF he had heard about this we can only speculate and its not worth arguing as its not mentioned in the bible. What is worth noting is that the thief somehow came to believe Jesus was innocent, and was going to his heavenly kingdom. From this its possible to say the thief must have heard about Jesus in order that he would believe these things about him. Consider this verse:

Luke 23:40-42
"But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Anyhow, that is my "two cents" on baptism. You can hear the other "five dollar" defense in my "Baptism Understood" reply title to this thread written earlier.

 

[Tenorvoice]

baptism is nothing more than a Christians first outward experssion of their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The dieing of the old ways (the old man) and the rebirth (born again) into the Body of Christ. It is not nessasary to get into Heaven. If this were needed then the man on the other cross with Jesus could never have gotten in when he asked for forgivness of his sin to Jesus while they all 3 hung there in pain and agony suffering for the crimes that they had commited. Jesus did this willingly as the PREFECT living unbleamished sacrifice for the atonment of our sins. With out this none of us could have ever been saved.



peace be with all and may He walk with you every day untill He returns.

 

[workman]

baptism is nothing more than a Christians first outward experssion of their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The dieing of the old ways (the old man) and the rebirth (born again) into the Body of Christ. It is not nessasary to get into Heaven. If this were needed then the man on the other cross with Jesus could never have gotten in when he asked for forgivness of his sin to Jesus while they all 3 hung there in pain and agony suffering for the crimes that they had commited. Jesus did this willingly as the PREFECT living unbleamished sacrifice for the atonment of our sins. With out this none of us could have ever been saved.

Hi Tenorvoice,

Nice to meet your aquaintance. Did you read what I wrote about the "thief" on the cross?

 

[Tenorvoice]

Hi Tenorvoice,

Nice to meet your aquaintance. Did you read what I wrote about the "thief" on the cross?

yes I did but not untill after I had posted.

 

[herzblutx88]

Baptism is not necessary: ( I got this from the carm.org website)

Is baptism necessary for salvation?
No. Faith in Jesus is sufficient for salvation. You don't have to do anything. Christ has done it all. However, baptism is very important and all believers should be baptized. If you refuse baptism after salvation, I would doubt your conversion.
There are Christian denominations that believe baptism is necessary for salvation. The arguments used, on the surface, seem to be powerful. However, upon examination baptism is found to occur after conversion and is not in anyway a cause or part of it. Take, for example, Acts 10:44-47. While Peter was witnessing, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message...and they were hearing them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
This passage shows that baptism happens after salvation. How do we know they were saved? They were speaking in tongues -- which is a gift from God (1 Cor. 14) to believers and they were exalting God. Non-believers do not exalt God. Also, Peter said they had received the Holy Spirit. That is only for Christians and it happened before baptism. (Note: speaking in tongues is simply a sign of salvation. It is not necessary that a Christian speak in tongues as a proof of salvation. Not all speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30).
Another set of verses applicable to this issue is 1 Cor. 1:17. Paul says, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." The gospel is what saves and it is explained in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Baptism is not part of the gospel; it is something that the believer does after salvation.
Baptism is only a symbol of that which saves and symbols don't save.

 

[theseed]

Herzblutz88, do you realize that Lutherans believe that Baptism is necesarry for salvation? They believe that the Holy Spirit does not work except through the sacraments: which include the Lord's Supper and Baptism.

 

[herzblutx88]

Whatever I dont care- Im baptized in a lutheran church but it doesnt mean i have to agree with it. The only thing that has truth is the bible not what a church tells me to believe.

 

[theseed]

Whatever I dont care- Im baptized in a lutheran church but it doesnt mean i have to agree with it. The only thing that has truth is the bible not what a church tells me to believe.

Are you going to church anywhere right now? You know the Lutherans believe that the church has the authority to interpret the bible, that is they would take the interpretation of the church and not what they find for themself in the bible.

As a Baptist, I don't have to agree with everything my local church does or beleives. Baptist believe in the priesthood of the believer.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

The question has been answered. Thread closed. This is not a debate forum.