Baptism

[GodLovesCats]

Baptism does not save anybody. Only faith does. Believers are commanded to be baptized. Why does any Christian believe baptism is necessary for salvation when the Bible says otherwise?

 

[112358]

Baptism does not save anybody. Only faith does. Believers are commanded to be baptized. Why does any Christian believe baptism is necessary for salvation when the Bible says otherwise?

Well, because the Bible does not say otherwise. We have discussed only a few scriptures that, if permitted to simply say what they say, clearly demonstrate the necessity of baptism for salvation. Like I said before the body of biblical evidence is simply overwhelming.

 

[GodLovesCats]

What about the thief on the cross, who was not baptized?

 

[112358]

What about the thief on the cross, who was not baptized?

How do you know he wasn’t? The Bible doesn’t say one way or the other, but he was a Jew who lived in a place and time when a great many Jews were being baptized by John. So why assume not?

Anyway, he also lived and died under the Old Covenant. Baptism was not required under Mosaic Law. Lastly, the Son of God has the authority to forgive sins as He sees fit. It is the same authority He has to determine the New Covenant requirements for salvation, which He did in no uncertain terms (Mark 16:16 again).

 

[GodLovesCats]

Why would baptism now be required under the New Covenant?

 

[112358]

Why would baptism now be required under the New Covenant?

Ummm, because Jesus said so? Because He commanded His apostles to go out to the whole world making disciples by baptizing them and teaching them to observe all things He commanded? Because that’s exactly what they proceeded to do? Because time after time after time when people were being converted to Christianity they were being baptized throughout the book of Acts? Peter said it is for the remission of sins and that it now saves us? Paul did it to wash away his own sins and said it’s where we contact Christ’s death and how we put on Christ?

There is actually a much longer answer that involves the significance of two things regarding God’s great redemption scheme throughout all periods of Biblical history. They are blood, and water. But honestly what more do we really need? If we just trust the NT scriptures to say what they say...it is so obvious!

 

[GodLovesCats]

If Jesus told his apostles, "Baptize the Israelites so they will be saved," you would have a point. That was not what he said though. Jesus told them to spread the good news to make people disciples.

 

[Albion]

If Jesus told his apostles, "Baptize the Israelites so they will be saved," you would have a point. That was not what he said though. Jesus told them to spread the good news to make people disciples.

What Mt 28:19 actually says is this--

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

 

[112358]

If Jesus told his apostles, "Baptize the Israelites so they will be saved," you would have a point. That was not what he said though. Jesus told them to spread the good news to make people disciples.

Israel is included in “all nations”, is it not? And since Peter first preached the gospel to a group of Jews in Jerusalem, the same ones that had crucified Christ, and told them to repent and “let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...”, And since he told them that the promise is for all who would believe, to the JEW FIRST, and also to the Greek, I think it safe to say that the apostles took part of their charge as “baptize the Israelites so they will be saved”. That’s exactly what they did!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Baptism does not save anybody. Only faith does. Believers are commanded to be baptized. Why does any Christian believe baptism is necessary for salvation when the Bible says otherwise?

You continue to make the argument about "what the Bible says", but aren't presenting Scripture, and also seem to be ignoring all the Scripture being presented to you.

Even still,

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," - 1 Peter 3:21

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GodLovesCats]

Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT is totally different and does not involve getting wet. Do you know for sure all of the verses about baptism saving people are simply immersion in water to cleanse physical dirt?

 

[Albion]

The relevant verses have been identified time and time again.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I am done if people refuse to accept the obvious fact that just being baptized without faith saves you. We must have faith. If being baptized was what saves people, faith would not be required. Saying baptism saves you is denying faith is a requirement and NOTHING is more important than faith. ALL Christians know that. I don't need to cite any verses because if you are a Christian, you know it, and I'm sure that is a fact.

 

[Albion]

I am done if people refuse to accept the obvious fact that just being baptized without faith saves you. We must have faith. If being baptized was what saves people, faith would not be required at all.

Once again, the strawman "Baptism saves people."

The 'bottom line' is what counts, and it is the word of God, which teaches us in several different places in scripture that entire households were baptized, children included.

That's it, even if people like to point to instances involving only adults. They can be expected to have faith before baptism lest they enter falsely into the relationship with Christ.

All that does is cherry-pick the Bible, which almost everyone agrees is an invalid way to approach the subject. We just need all of them to put it into practice.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT is totally different and does not involve getting wet. Do you know for sure all of the verses about baptism saving people are simply immersion in water to cleanse physical dirt?

1 Peter 3:21 isn't talking about Baptism with the Holy Spirit, it's talking about Baptism. That's why it says "Baptism" and doesn't say "Baptism with the Holy Spirit". When Scripture is talking about baptism with the Holy Spirit, it says so.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am done if people refuse to accept the obvious fact that just being baptized without faith saves you.

Can you name a single person on this thread who has said that "just being baptized without faith saves you"?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GodLovesCats]

Can you name a single person on this thread who has said that "just being baptized without faith saves you"?

I was saying what is implied by all the comments about people being saved when they are baptized and if babies are baptized, they become Christians at that time.

 

[Albion]

I tend to be guided by what people actually write, not what I want to infer.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Element: Do you believe baptism should be performed only with water?

Yes.

Formula: Do you believe baptism should be performed only in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

Yes.

Mode: Do you believe baptism should be performed only by immersion?

No.

Recipient: Do you believe baptism should be performed only to believers?

No; infants of the faithful may be baptized.

And finally, do you believe baptism should be performed only by an ordained minister?

No. But baptism by clergy is best practice, I think.

 

[112358]

I am done if people refuse to accept the obvious fact that just being baptized without faith saves you. We must have faith. If being baptized was what saves people, faith would not be required. Saying baptism saves you is denying faith is a requirement and NOTHING is more important than faith. ALL Christians know that. I don't need to cite any verses because if you are a Christian, you know it, and I'm sure that is a fact.

There is no such thing as baptism without faith. Faith has to be there, otherwise it’s just getting wet.

Let’s try this. Consider Naaman’s story in 2 Kings. Was it the water itself that cleansed him of his leprosy? Or was it the power of God expressed through the means that He determined? Naaman didn’t understand the instruction at all, in fact it made him furious. Yet ultimately his obedience healed him. It was not NT baptism, but I think the illustration applies.

If God asked us spin around in circles for three minutes to be saved, we would be here debating all the people saying that it’s not necessary because spinning doesn’t save us, and it makes some people dizzy, and some people aren’t able, etc. None of that changes the fact that God said to do it to be saved!