Baptism

[GodLovesCats]

Infants can be bapized but not adult unbelievers.

What difference does it make? Infants are also unbelievers because they do not have the mental ability to understand what must be believed. The first time a person sins, salvation by faith alone is necessary, and age is irrelevant in this regard.

 

[Not David]

What difference does it make? Infants are also unbelievers because they do not have the mental ability to understand what must be believed. The first time a person sins, salvation by faith alone is necessary, and age is irrelevant in this regard.

So the mentally ill cannot be baptized?

 

[GodLovesCats]

So the mentally ill cannot be baptized?

Only people who don't know the definition of mentally ill and have a stigma against them would think that is what I am saying. Do some research before assuming "mentally ill" means "unable to believe in God."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Obviously the person who performs the baptism must be a believer, so "any person" is incorrect.

The purpose of baptism is to publicly display your death and rebirth in Christ. I will stick to my view it is a church ritual, not to be done wherever there is enough water.

After giving this some thought, I do concede that in the early church the person doing the baptisms needed to be respected and recognised as an elder. I don't think they would have allowed any young novice to do it. This would be consistent with what Paul wrote to Timothy about the criteria for appointing elders.

Concerning your comment about it being a "church ritual and not to be done whenever there is enough water", contradicts the event involving Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch where the Eunuch said, "Here is water, what is stopping me being baptised here?"

 

[Not David]

Only people who don't know the definition of mentally ill and have a stigma against them would think that is what I am saying. Do some research before assuming "mentally ill" means "unable to believe in God."

Not all of them believe the way adults do. That's why I reject the idea you need to be somehow "rational" in your belief.

 

[Anthony2019]

Do you believe baptism should be performed only with water?

Yes.

Do you believe baptism should be performed only in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).

Do you believe baptism should be performed only by immersion?

full immersion, pouring or sprinkling

Do you believe baptism should be performed only to believers?

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call (Acts 2:39)

And finally, do you believe baptism should be performed only by an ordained minister?

Ideally by a ordained minister, but baptism can also be performed by anyone as long as it has the correct essence of a sacrament - the correct intention, the correct matter (water) and the correct form (Trinitarian formula).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Are you so certain your position is correct? Lots of accusations in this comment that if you are wrong...

Something very tangible happens in baptism. Paul equated it to spiritual circumcision in Colossians 2:11-12. God punished the Israelites for only having a fleshly circumcision and not a spiritual one (Jeremiah 9:26)

Getting baptized isnt a work a believer does to earn their salvation, its being obedient.

Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins! Acts 2:38

No one can see the kingdom of God unless born of WATER & SPIRIT John 3:5

Telling people they don't need to be water baptized is more likely a false gospel, than telling people they do. Such a statement is teaching disobedience to scriptures.

Galatians 3:27, As many as were BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ

Romans 6:3-4, Baptized into Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Water baptism has its place as clearly indicated in Scripture. I have no argument about that.

What I am saying is the teaching of some that a person cannot be saved unless they are baptised. This is mixing faith with works, and Paul was very clear in Galatians that teaching this will bring the curse of God upon them.

Salvation is gained by faith in Christ alone, without any works that we can do. There is nothing we can do to contribute to our salvation. It has to be on the basis of our faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross alone.

Therefore baptism is for believers already saved by faith, and it is a public identification with Christ showing that going down into the water signifies going into the grave with Christ, and then rising up with Him in newness of life. I believe that everyone who is genuinely converted to Christ will want to be baptised. If a person doesn't want to be baptised, then I would think there is something amiss in their commitment to Christ.

 

[zoidar]

What difference does it make? Infants are also unbelievers because they do not have the mental ability to understand what must be believed. The first time a person sins, salvation by faith alone is necessary, and age is irrelevant in this regard.

The difference is that an infant can't decide for themself, an adult can. I think you also can batize an adult that is too mentally handicapped to make a choice for themself.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Concerning your comment about it being a "church ritual and not to be done whenever there is enough water", contradicts the event involving Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch where the Eunuch said, "Here is water, what is stopping me being baptised here?"

Because baptism is a public display of one's salvation, it would not make sense to do it where nobody can see the event, such as your own bathroom. And I certainly would not want to do it in saltwater!

Not all of them believe the way adults do. That's why I reject the idea you need to be somehow "rational" in your belief.

What does this mean? I was not specifically talking about kids and there is nothing that all adults believe.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

When did the change-over take place? It could not have been in the time of Christ, since he sent his Apostles out into the world, instructing them to baptize people (which could not refer to a "baptism of the Holy Spirit" experience).

Philip and the Eunuch had the impression that baptism was to be in water and that was well after the day of Pentecost.

 

[GodLovesCats]

The difference is that an infant can't decide for himself, an adult can. I think you also can baptize an adult that is too mentally handicapped to make a choice for himself.

If this is true, you can baptize anyone who has never heard or read the Gospel.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Philip and the Eunuch had the impression that baptism was to be in water and that was well after the day of Pentecost.

I agree baptism should always be done by immersion.

 

[zoidar]

If this is true, you can baptize anyone who has never heard or read the Gospel.

What would you do if your sister or brother was born mentally handicapped and growing up not capable of talking or showing any sign of possibly understanding the gospel?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What would you do if your sister or brother was born mentally handicapped and growing up not capable of talking or showing any sign of possibly understanding the gospel?

A person being baptised needs to have a clear knowledge of what baptism is for and what it involves. It has to be totally voluntary and not the result of manipulation, intimidation, or control from anyone else. Otherwise it has no value at all to God, and the only result is that the person will end up wet.

 

[zoidar]

A person being baptised needs to have a clear knowledge of what baptism is for and what it involves. It has to be totally voluntary and not the result of manipulation, intimidation, or control from anyone else. Otherwise it has no value at all to God, and the only result is that the person will end up wet.

So if you are mentally handicapped, not able to understand the gospel, you have not been given the right to be baptized?

 

[zoidar]

So if you are mentally handicapped, not able to understand the gospel, you have not been given the right to be baptized?

From my perspective that would be denying that person baptism.

 

[charsan]

Let's debate about this subject, how about it?

Element: Do you believe baptism should be performed only with water?

Yes

Formula:

Do you believe baptism should be performed only in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

Yes

Mode:

Do you believe baptism should be performed only by immersion?

Yes if possible, sometimes it is not possible

Recipient:

Do you believe baptism should be performed only to believers?

No, Baptism can be done to infants.

And finally, do you believe baptism should be performed only by an ordained minister?

Yes

 

[GingerBeer]

Let's debate about this subject, how about it?

Element: Do you believe baptism should be performed only with water?

Yes the scripture examples of baptism are with water and Christian tradition is to baptise with water so baptising with water is the norm.

Formula: Do you believe baptism should be performed only in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

Yes the gospel according to Matthew says that Jesus commissioned his disciples to baptise in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit so we have a command to do it that way and Christian tradition is to do it that way and it is helpful for those who receive baptism to know and understand as well as hear that they are baptised in the name of the one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mode: Do you believe baptism should be performed only by immersion?

No but immersion is a good means of baptising. Scripture does not expressly command immersion or submersion and Christian tradition includes other less wetting means of baptising.

Recipient: Do you believe baptism should be performed only to believers?

No, but what exactly is a believer? Believer's baptism is common to all churches as far as I know, except perhaps for a few such as the Salvation Army which does not baptise, but Christian tradition includes baptism of the children of believers and some say that infants do not or cannot believe. That is an opinion that may need examination.

And finally, do you believe baptism should be performed only by an ordained minister?

No the scriptures give examples of baptisms by people who are not elders (ordained) and Christian tradition also includes baptisms done by unordained people.

 

[devin553344]

Let's debate about this subject, how about it?

Element: Do you believe baptism should be performed only with water?

Formula: Do you believe baptism should be performed only in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

Mode: Do you believe baptism should be performed only by immersion?

Recipient: Do you believe baptism should be performed only to believers?

And finally, do you believe baptism should be performed only by an ordained minister?

Although I'm mostly Catholic I do like immersion, so I like all of the above. But the Catholics have a valid answer for that here:Baptism: Immersion Only?

 

[His student]

They are anti-Trinitarian in belief and shout that from the rooftops. It is not simply a matter of the wording used in baptism.

Subscribing to the Trinity isn't a biblical prerequisite to be saved - in spite of the rather arbitrary restrictions this forum makes on who can and who can't post here as a Christian.

Why don't you give us an example. It is hard to judge the point by what is written in this paragraph

Many theologians note that the disciples baptized in Jesus name after being told by the Lord to baptize in the "name" of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Many Christians believe that the relationship that we see of a Son and Father only became pertinent with the incarnation. When He sends His Firstborn into the word, God clearly says "today I have begotten you" where as the Nicene creed says wrongly that the Son is "eternally begotten of the Father".

I'm not going to go into a complete systematic theology concerning the Oneness view. There's plenty of places for people to research that if they really want to.

Only I would ask people to please not just construct straw men and kick them around. Give the other side a chance. Just as you reject the oft repeated charge that you believe in 3 Gods - oneness proponents reject that they deny the full divinity of the Son.

While I have been raised in a Trinitarian belief system I have come to see that at least this one other view of things is at least as valid a way of looking at things and is therefore not a "heresy" but is simply a different viewpoint on a difficult doctrine.

Of course I reject the idea that one must be baptized with a certain formula to be saved just as I reject baptismal regeneration itself.