Baptism

[VOW]

Originally posted by ljmandtina
Hi, I'm new to these forums. I'm a Protestant, no particular denomination but more conservative than some. My fiance is Catholic and I will visit with her church in a couple of weeks. I've attended once in the past and felt lost when it came to the format of the services.

I understand your confusion about the Catholic services; I remember how lost I felt the first time I went to a Catholic Church.

Ask one of the hospitality ministers for a "missalette." Your fiance should be able to show you the different parts of the service and you can follow along. There will be different times when people are standing, sitting, kneeling... don't worry! Stand when they stand, sit when they sit, and if you aren't comfortable kneeling, then sitting quietly will do. You don't have to make the Sign of the Cross, nobody will kick you out of the Church if you don't do that. There will be parts of the service where the congregation answers the Priest; if you are following along in the missalette, you may answer as well (the people's responses are in bold face type); again, though, you don't have to.

Catholics worship with the whole body. There are times when it is respectful to stand, such as when the Gospel is read. That is the word of Jesus, and we stand to show our understanding these are important Scriptures. At times we kneel, when a very holy portion of the Mass is being performed. Again, that is our respect for what is happening.

Hopefully, your fiance can help explain as the Mass proceeds; if you obtain a missalette it will allow you to follow and not feel so much like an outsider.

All of us had to learn, too.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Wolseley]

I have never understood why we see a mention of SPRINKLING. Who ever baptizes by sprinkling? The Catholics don't, and yet we see it mentioned anytime baptism comes up.

If you follow the Didache, there appears to be a section in there (#7) where pouring is allowed if not enough water is available for immersion; one could project that the same would be true for aspersion over immersion or infusion, if there's a severe enough water shortage.

At least one Patristic source, Cyprian of Carthage, mentions that the sick or the dying could be baptized by sprinkling as well as pouring (Letter to Magnus, 69,12, 225 AD).

Not all of the ancient forms of baptism have been retained; my personal favorite is from Hippolytus of Rome in The Apostolic Tradition, 21, 215 AD, in which he stipulates that the candidate, the bishop or priest doing the baptizing, and the deacon who is assisting, should all be standing naked together in the water.

At that period of history, of course, everybody was used to the communal Roman baths where everybody went in together, so modesty was not the issue it is now; but if such a form were used today, I'd be willing to bet it would make for some, ah, interesting services.

 

[Blessed-one]

Originally posted by Kotton
I have never understood why we see a mention of SPRINKLING. Who ever baptizes by sprinkling? The Catholics don't, and yet we see it mentioned anytime baptism comes up.

what if a really really old and fragile man decided to receive Christ, and wanted himself to be baptized? and he is confined to bed? can't really dunk him into a pool of water.... that's where sprinkling comes in.

 

[ljmandtina]

Thank you VOW. I may never become a Catholic, but I do want my fiance to know that I care about her and want to be able to understand how she bases her life according to how she understands her faith. God brought the two of us together and He knows that any differences between our faiths are compatible with that of the other person's.

8 days and I'll be able to see her again!

Thanks again. God bless.

 

[pax]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 1257-1261:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Pax,

Brad

 

[ZiSunka]

What about stillborn babies? The ones who die before being born. What happens to them, since they can't have been baptized?

 

[VOW]

Originally posted by lambslove
What about stillborn babies? The ones who die before being born. What happens to them, since they can't have been baptized?

Copied from the post above yours:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Catholics believe that Jesus's mother, Mary, became the mother of all mankind, when Jesus, as he was hanging on the Cross, turned to John and entrusted the care of his mother to his disciple. He used the impersonal address, "Woman, behold your son," and that is understood to mean that we all became her children then.

For me, it is comforting to think of Mary, in Heaven, seated in a large, comfortable rocking chair, gently holding and rocking and singing to all the little babies who have died.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[ZiSunka]

So they go to heaven, then?

 

[Avila]

That is something we can't say for certain, but I definitely hold it in my heart (read: not an official Church teaching) that they do. They haven't been given the opportunity to sin, and Jesus sure loves the little children.

 

[VOW]

Jesus scolded the Apostles for keeping children away, he wanted the children to "come unto Him."

Of course they are in Heaven!

You could get technical and talk about baptism of faith, or of desire, or even the amniotic fluid being a baptism of sorts. But the Lord knits the babies in their mothers' wombs, they CAME from Heaven, and they sometimes must go right back.

My sister-in-law got a beautiful card at a baby shower, that explained about babies who lie in their cribs, and coo and smile and "chatter" to themselves. According to the card, they are talking to the Angels.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[ljmandtina]

I'm not disputing the reality of the Catholic faith concerning baptism as a requirement for salvation. I will simply point out here that in my church, and in most Protestant denominations as far as I know, when Jesus said that we must be born of water and of the Spirit, the water birth happened in the womb and is something every person experiences in their lives - even those not carried to term, aborted, or stillborn. All that is left then is to accept Christ as our Savior and He sends His Spirit to dwell inside us, thus fulfilling the Spirit's baptism.

We believe that we are saved by His grace through only our faith, not by anything we do or intend to do at some later time. If our salvation is partly dependent upon our actions or intentions, then Christ did not complete the work He was sent to do.

Finally, Christ commanded us to go and teach the Good News and baptize in His name because the witnessing of baptism is a sign to others that we have chosen to follow Christ; and it's ok for our brothers and sisters to correct us when we are found doing something that Christians should not be engaged in.

I think that the Catholic Catechism pretty much acknowledges the salvation of all who believe in Him.

God Bless

 

[Avila]

VOW ~ Tommy points up into the air at nothing and gets really excited. We say that he is pointing out guardian angels, so we greet/acknowledge them. Maybe that's silly, but I think children, in their innocence, are far wiser than we are...

 

[aforchrist33]

Dear Vow:

You make broad statements without scripture, and personal opinions with them. How can you arive at truth without "Rightly dividing" ? (2 Timothy 2:15)