Baptism

[Thekla]

then please share the references etc. so I can understand your point. (verse and word used please... who knows, maybe you're right -oh... did I say that? lol)

in Genesis 1:26, God says "let Us make man in our image according to/toward ... likeness and a few verses later, only image is used

so the difficulty is in explaining the terms --

image - when an image is made of something it "looks like" but is not the same/cannot replace what it is an image of --- similar to but not the same as (a kid can be a "spittin' image of the parent, both visually and in talents,share personality traits etc, but still not be the same as ...)

likeness is more of a "substantive" term -- it refers to the "substance"

if Adam and Eve were fully God-like,

1. why would God have given them a commandment ?
2. how could they have fallen ?

 

[Meshavrischika]

i meant the hebrew words then the translation of those, along with the scripture these specific words were gleaned from (assuming now that this would be Genesis 1:26)

in all reality, what you did say still doesn't differentiate between likeness and image because part of God IS in us and has been... so we ARE more than just appearing like Him, but have a part of Him in us (we're just not a carbon copy)

 

[Thekla]

i meant the hebrew words then the translation of those, along with the scripture these specific words were gleaned from (assuming now that this would be Genesis 1:26)

in all reality, what you did say still doesn't differentiate between likeness and image because part of God IS in us and has been... so we ARE more than just appearing like Him, but have a part of Him in us (we're just not a carbon copy)

if you want the Hebrew, you should ask Little Lamb of Jesus or someone else; and then compare its use throughout the OT the image - I think this would be cool

I am using the LXX, which is Greek (transl. 2nd cent BC ?, and commonly used by early Greek-speaking Christians)

I agree we still have the image of God -- but please consider the question (not for agreement, but because it is "interesting") : if Adam and Eve were God-like, why did they listen to Satan and then fall ?

 

[Meshavrischika]

God like is not God. If we were God of course we wouldn't have listened. (btw, only Eve listened to satan - semantics but still). God-like is different. We have part of Him in us. Therefore we resemble Him. We are like Him, but not the same (as how can there be more than one God - that's just weird). They were part earth, and part God's breath of life. Just like your kids are part mom and part dad. While they may resemble you, they do not always do as you would do... but you cannot deny them being from you and carrying an essential part of you in them...

 

[Thekla]

God like is not God. If we were God of course we wouldn't have listened. (btw, only Eve listened to satan - semantics but still). God-like is different. We have part of Him in us. Therefore we resemble Him. We are like Him, but not the same (as how can there be more than one God - that's just weird). They were part earth, and part God's breath of life. Just like your kids are part mom and part dad. While they may resemble you, they do not always do as you would do... but you cannot deny them being from you and carrying an essential part of you in them...

found the words :

tselem - image; likeness as in "shadowing forth"
- LXX eikona

demuwth - likeness; as in similitude
-LXX omoiwsin

in this sense, one shows image as in shadow, and likeness refers to substance

(compare Gen. 5:13, "begat a son according to his likeness (substance, a like being) after his image (the shadow cast )

yeah, when my kids make excuses I usually respond: "Uh-huh, Eve made me do it, and its the serpents fault."

 

[Meshavrischika]

shadowing
An imperfect imitation or copy

forth
Out into view

si·mil·i·tude (s

-m

l

-t

d

, -ty

d

) n. 1. Similarity; resemblance. See Synonyms at likeness.
2. a. One closely resembling another; a counterpart.
b. A perceptible likeness.

3. Archaic A simile, allegory, or parable.



let Us make man in our image according to/toward ... likeness and a few verses later, only image is used

BECOMES

Let us make man in our evident/viewable imperfect copy....

and

begat a son according to his resemblance after his evident imperfect copy.

 

[Thekla]

shadowing
An imperfect imitation or copy

forth
Out into view

si·mil·i·tude (s

-m

l

-t

d

, -ty

d

) n. 1. Similarity; resemblance. See Synonyms at likeness.
2. a. One closely resembling another; a counterpart.
b. A perceptible likeness.

3. Archaic A simile, allegory, or parable.



let Us make man in our image according to/toward ... likeness and a few verses later, only image is used

BECOMES

Let us make man in our evident/viewable imperfect copy....

and

begat a son according to his resemblance after his evident imperfect copy.

I"m not doing a very good job of explaining - sorry -

likeness not as a visual, but referring to the substance of the thing -- the "isness", the beingness (where a clam is unlike a flower because they are of different substance, or a block and a brownie may share shape and color but are of different substance, do not share a likeness)

 

[Meshavrischika]

hehehe... clams and flowers are carbon based.

anyway...

we are both in likeness and image then. Not only do I feel like man resembles God physically, but also we contain part of His being breathed into us.

 

[anisavta]

not exactly; but if Torah is the second person of the Trinity, then closer ...

The Torah or to define it further - the Tanakh (all the Holy Writings) is the very Word of YHVH. You cannot divide the Word into well this is the Father or this is the Son or this is the Holy Spirit. He is One and His Word is One (unity).
Sorry I know y'all have moved on but I'm just catching up.

 

[Thekla]

hehehe... clams and flowers are carbon based.

anyway...

we are both in likeness and image then. Not only do I feel like man resembles God physically, but also we contain part of His being breathed into us.

btw, I'm not doing this to 'demand' agreement
but there is a deeply different way of seeing this, also biblical, and this I am trying to explain for consideration ...

we are unlike the rest of creation as we have both spiritual and physical aspects to our being, which IMO is a unified being. So to the other way of thinking, however, we all have and retain the image (no matter what we think of Christ, whether we love Him or not we have the image because we were created that way). But if you look a few verses beyond, only image is mentioned. If you read Gen 1:26 as using image/likeness as the repetition of an idea, the subsequent verses are not perhaps of interest, as there is no difference. But, if you read image and likeness as two different ideas, then of course, the subsequent verses express a somewhat different spiritual truth.

 

[anisavta]

Everybody claims the Spirit leads them - everybody from Catholics to people in wacky cults.
Who is right?

People separate the the Word of G~d from the Spirit of G~d.
People don't want to follow the Word of G~d written down in the Holy Writings. Many have replaced the Spirit of G~d with the Word of G~d so they can make up anything that remotely resembles something spiritual. Thus you have cults and wacked out people claiming to do things because the Holy Spirit told them to - not based at all on the Word but strictly based on emotion or the latest wave of doctrine that they have picked up from a lying spirit.
The Holy Spirit will NEVER contradict His Word.
BTW this is a good discussion but what does it have to do with baptism?

 

[Thekla]

The Torah or to define it further - the Tanakh (all the Holy Writings) is the very Word of YHVH. You cannot divide the Word into well this is the Father or this is the Son or this is the Holy Spirit. He is One and His Word is One (unity).

the Trinity is never divided, I agree -- but I was relating your use here back to the specific question of what "be following", yes. We are to "be following" a person, actually the 2cnd person of the Trinity incarnated. In this "following", love (where love is God) He will be in us and we in Him.

 

[anisavta]

"If you have seen Me - you have seen the Father".
Same G~d of the Older Testament. What was written then is still just as applicable as the Apostolic Writings. What Yeshua said and did was a reflection and reiteration of the Father. Again they are One - echad.

 

[Thekla]

"If you have seen Me - you have seen the Father".
Same G~d of the Older Testament. What was written then is still just as applicable as the Apostolic Writings. What Yeshua said and did was a reflection and reiteration of the Father. Again they are One - echad.

I don't know that we have the same 'understanding' of Trinity; I do agree that it is the same God OT/NT, though the revelation is not complete until the NT ...
but not all "see", and though Christ can heal this, not all come to be healed

 

[Meshavrischika]

not saying this is fact, but being made in His image and being the only person on the earth to EVER live up to it could be what He was talking about (just for argument's sake)

 

[Thekla]

not saying this is fact, but being made in His image and being the only person on the earth to EVER live up to it could be what He was talking about (just for argument's sake)

actually, if I understand you correctly, I agree and then add:
1. one way we know that Christ is God (is image, but also of the same essence/likeness)
2. His coming is to "make possible" for us to "be perfect as" God is perfect -- in this sense, through the Holy Spirit, we "are being perfected" which is why we must "be following" Christ. (In the Greek, "be following" is given in a tense which confers continuing action, starting at a certain point, and is given as an "imperative", a command; another words -- keep on doing it).

 

[Meshavrischika]

so how does what you assert prove divinity (not getting the connection though agreeing with what you said)

 

[Thekla]

so how does what you assert prove divinity (not getting the connection though agreeing with what you said)

in the OT there are glimpses --in history, God chooses and protects them, and their history is told; God prepares them, and gives the Law to do so; God promises, and informs them of what is to come/prophecy. Part of the promise includes that death will be overcome -- but the righteous still remain (except for some) in Hades.

the fulfillment of all this is the coming of Christ -- and the revelation is complete with the descent of the Holy Spirit. It is in looking back from the NT and then forward again -- that the whole is seen. Christ is the first that died and was raised, the first to never sin, the only one whose love was completely unselfish. Remember, at His crucifixion, the dead were raised and were seen walking the streets of Jerusalem, the sun itself was blackened, the earth shook, the veil of the Temple was rent; all this spontaneously.

Mostly in Acts, you see the apostles "doing" the same as Christ did -- the dead continue to be raised, a shadow heals, at his martyrdom Stephen's face is as an angel's (biblical reference to appearing as light) -- and these things indicate also the fulfillment of both OT prophecy and the teaching of Christ. The Gospel of John describes Christ as God the most openly of the four ; in fact, if you go back to the first chapter of Genesis, John references and connects a great deal. For example, the use of the term Logos and God "speaking" creation, the use of light ([wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]) is derived from Genesis as well. I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but if you read the first verses from Genesis and then John, it might be clearer ...

 

[Meshavrischika]

in the OT there are glimpses --in history, God chooses and protects them, and their history is told; God prepares them, and gives the Law to do so; God promises, and informs them of what is to come/prophecy. Part of the promise includes that death will be overcome -- but the righteous still remain (except for some) in Hades.

the fulfillment of all this is the coming of Christ -- and the revelation is complete with the descent of the Holy Spirit. It is in looking back from the NT and then forward again -- that the whole is seen. Christ is the first that died and was raised, the first to never sin, the only one whose love was completely unselfish. Remember, at His crucifixion, the dead were raised and were seen walking the streets of Jerusalem, the sun itself was blackened, the earth shook, the veil of the Temple was rent; all this spontaneously.

Mostly in Acts, you see the apostles "doing" the same as Christ did -- the dead continue to be raised, a shadow heals, at his martyrdom Stephen's face is as an angel's (biblical reference to appearing as light) -- and these things indicate also the fulfillment of both OT prophecy and the teaching of Christ. The Gospel of John describes Christ as God the most openly of the four ; in fact, if you go back to the first chapter of Genesis, John references and connects a great deal. For example, the use of the term Logos and God "speaking" creation, the use of light ([wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]) is derived from Genesis as well. I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but if you read the first verses from Genesis and then John, it might be clearer ...

yet somehow this still does not assert divinity or the God head.... it surely is foreshadowing, I'll give you that... but no where does it support divinity without interpretation (at least the way you described it)

sorry, I like to argue sometimes for the sake of argument. there's no point i believing something you cannot pick apart and still show to be real.

 

[Thekla]

yet somehow this still does not assert divinity or the God head.... it surely is foreshadowing, I'll give you that... but no where does it support divinity without interpretation (at least the way you described it)

sorry, I like to argue sometimes for the sake of argument. there's no point i believing something you cannot pick apart and still show to be real.

no problem

there are statements throughout the NT; the "biggest" is when Christ repeats what is said to Moses - I am - and some, understanding what is meant, prepare to stone Him.

its really - as before - in the Gospel of John;

ex. John 10:30 (... are one, using the cardinal number signifying unity as opposed to ordinal which shows a hierarchy)

John 5:18 (isos Theos, equal (to) God can mean = in quality/essence, otherwise quantity/number)

John 5:19 says He has seen the Father doing (no man can see God and live)

John 5:26 the Father has life in Himself, and Christ has been given to have life in Himself (only God gives/is life)


John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." ( and in verse 31 they plan to stone Him)

that is a start -- I can't find the verse I'm looking for, of course

but the identity of Christ is most in evidence in the Gospel of John

EDIT: just wanted to add this, from 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it was not yet made manifest what we shall be; but we know that if He should be made manifest, we shall be like (omoios -that word from Genesis) Him ...
the later verse states there is no sin in Him, He is pure -- more identifiers ...
anyway, this is related to the image (have) likeness (can become) reading