Baptism

[jmacvols]

and 16:9-20 aren't supportable as "real" scripture

...and you keep saying this with absolutely no proof to back it up.

 

[JamesThaddeusMartin]

So what are you believing in? That your baptism saves you?

Yes, of course, due to the working of the Holy Spirit through the medium of which Christ ordained and commanded us to use and that which we are to obey as the Scripture tells us.




pax

 

[MamaZ]

That’s what Paul in Romans 6:3 says: "Do you not know that all of us who have been immersed into Christ Jesus, have been immersed into His death." This is a dry verse here, folks. We’re not talking about water baptism—he’s simply saying that when you have been immersed into Christ Jesus by faith, you have been immersed into His death. When you put your faith in Jesus Christ, "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit," I Corinthians 6 says. Paul says in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me." So, here I am inseparable from Christ, as it were. Here is Christ living in me and I am in Christ. I am in Christ; Christ is in me. My body is the temple of the Spirit of God—if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Christ dwells within me. So, I am now in this inseparable, indivisible, unity with the Lord Jesus Christ. I am in an ongoing, constant, shared life—I possess the life of God, as it were. I am a partaker of the divine life. Christ dwells within me; the Holy Spirit has taken up residency in my life.

 

[MamaZ]

I believe that Christ saves me.. For there is only one door and that is Christ.. Not Christ and baptism.. For there is only one name that any man can be saved.. Jesus,

 

[Meshavrischika]

13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.'

water then spirit are mentioned
birth of flesh then spirit are mentioned
original birth, then spirit birth
it's really simple (notice a trend)
all the ones on the right are spirit, hence all the ones on the left should be similar

 

[jmacvols]

So what are you believing in? That your baptism saves you?

"baptism doth also now save us" - Peter.
Unfortunately, too many people try and change the 'w' in the word now to a 't', and write that off as "interpretation".

 

[jmacvols]

Please explain more for me here.. For I do not want to assume what you are saying.

The Holy Spirit is the author of the bible. Then if I live my life according to the bible, then the Spirit, thru the bible, indwells in me.

 

[MamaZ]

"baptism doth also now save us" - Peter.
Unfortunately, too many people try and change the 'w' in the word now to a 't', and write that off as "interpretation".

He is speaking of the immersion into Christ. Not water baptism. We are immersed into Christ through the Holy Spirit. Christ now lives in Us..

 

[jmacvols]

that aren't church related or from the church?

I'm not a "history buff" so I cannot tell you where all the manuscripts came from.

 

[MamaZ]

The Holy Spirit is the author of the bible. Then if I live my life according to the bible, then the Spirit, thru the bible, indwells in me.

How can you live your life according to the bible if you do not have the Holy Spirit in you to be your teacher to know what it is being said in the bible? For you have to have spiritual eyes to see and Spiritual ears to hear. In order for you to have these you have to be born again from the Spirit of God.

 

[Meshavrischika]

...and you keep saying this with absolutely no proof to back it up.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark 16:9-16:20&version=31
D. C. Parker, The Living Text of the Gospels (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997), p. 125; a twelfth century commentary on Matthew and Mark also ends at 16:8.

Six seventh-to-tenth-century Greek manuscripts contain this Shorter Ending, with minor variations, after 16:8. All six also contain the Longer Ending. Furthermore, linguistic and stylistic differences between the concluding canonical verses 9-20 (often called the "Longer Ending") and the rest of the Gospel have been regarded by some scholars as enough to doubt their authenticity.

A large majority of contemporary New Testament textual critics, see also Textual criticism, have concluded that neither the longer nor shorter endings were originally part of Mark's Gospel, though the evidence of the early church fathers above shows that the longer ending had become accepted tradition by some in the second century.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I'm not a "history buff" so I cannot tell you where all the manuscripts came from.

so you believe blindly something you do not know for yourself?

 

[jmacvols]

That’s what Paul in Romans 6:3 says: "Do you not know that all of us who have been immersed into Christ Jesus, have been immersed into His death." This is a dry verse here, folks. We’re not talking about water baptism—he’s simply saying that when you have been immersed into Christ Jesus by faith, you have been immersed into His death. When you put your faith in Jesus Christ, "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit," I Corinthians 6 says. Paul says in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me." So, here I am inseparable from Christ, as it were. Here is Christ living in me and I am in Christ. I am in Christ; Christ is in me. My body is the temple of the Spirit of God—if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Christ dwells within me. So, I am now in this inseparable, indivisible, unity with the Lord Jesus Christ. I am in an ongoing, constant, shared life—I possess the life of God, as it were. I am a partaker of the divine life. Christ dwells within me; the Holy Spirit has taken up residency in my life.

---Rom 6:3,4 is water baptism. Note the words used. One is buried with Him then raised up from. If this were "spirit" baptism one then is buried in the spirit but then raised up from that spirit and does not keep the spirit. Yet one is buried in a watery grave then raised up from that watery grave.

--there is no verse that says baptism with the HS last till the end of time, that it saves or that it is promised or commanded to you. Yet water baptism does last till the end of time, Mt 28:19,20, it saves, Acts 2:38 and is commanded, Acts 10:47,48.

--Note that no verse commands you to be baptized with the HS, therefore you cannot obey something that is not commanded you. Note in Rom 6:17,18 that the Romans OBEYED from the heart that FORM OF DOCTRINE, then they were freed from sin. That form of doctrine they obeyed that freed them from sin was water baptism. Note they OBEYED for water baptism is commanded so it can be obeyed, but baptism with the HS is not commanded so it cannot be obeyed. It freed them from sin, note that water baptism remits sins, Act 2:38 yet baptism with the HS cannot.

 

[jmacvols]

I believe that Christ saves me.. For there is only one door and that is Christ.. Not Christ and baptism.. For there is only one name that any man can be saved.. Jesus,

I believe Christ saves me too, but the means He uses to save me is water baptism.

 

[jmacvols]

13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.'

water then spirit are mentioned
birth of flesh then spirit are mentioned
original birth, then spirit birth
it's really simple (notice a trend)
all the ones on the right are spirit, hence all the ones on the left should be similar

You must be born of spirit and water to enter the kingdom so we have:

Spirit++++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kingdom

By one SPIRT are we BAPTIZED into one BODY, so we need the spirit and baptism to get into the body, so we have:


Spirit++++++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>body

SO both verses say we need SPirit/Spirit and water/baptism to get into the kingdom/body. THey say exactly the same thing!! Since "spirit" is equal to "spirit" in both verses then "water" must be equal to 'baptized" else they do not harmonize or there is more than one way to be saved which there isn't. Note that the physical birth is not to be found in either Jn 3:5 or 1 Cor 12:13.

 

[jmacvols]

He is speaking of the immersion into Christ. Not water baptism. We are immersed into Christ through the Holy Spirit. Christ now lives in Us..

1 Pet 3:21 is water baptism, the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

In 1 Pet 3:20,21 Peter is making a type to anti-type connection. The type is Noah being saved by water, the anti-type is us being saved by baptism. Since the anti-type must be a mirror reflection of the type and Noah was saved by water, then Peter must be referencing water baptism, hence Noah was saved by water and we are saved by water baptism. Noah was not saved by "spirit" and we are not saved by "spirit baptism".

 

[Meshavrischika]

---Rom 6:3,4 is water baptism. Note the words used. One is buried with Him then raised up from. If this were "spirit" baptism one then is buried in the spirit but then raised up from that spirit and does not keep the spirit. Yet one is buried in a watery grave then raised up from that watery grave.
Per this logic a push-up is water baptism. you go down, then up. lol. truth is, Christ was physically buried and without that we would have no victory in a resurrection because it wouldn't exist. Hence, this refers to resurrection in Him with Him, not baptism in water which is just a symbol.
--there is no verse that says baptism with the HS last till the end of time, that it saves or that it is promised or commanded to you. Yet water baptism does last till the end of time, Mt 28:19,20, it saves, Acts 2:38 and is commanded, Acts 10:47,48.
again, the theory that Matthew (being the later writer) borrowed from Mark... lah dee dah... and as for Acts 2:38 it really depends on what version of the bible you're reading as to whether it even remotely indicates water baptism saves. As for 10:47-48 it states the HS came BEFORE the desired baptism and they was some question of being "allowed" to be baptized, I assume when no one balked, he "ordered it in the name of Jesus". Remember, there were problems with people claiming to be of the apostles and not of Christ at this time. (baptized in the name of the apostles)
--Note that no verse commands you to be baptized with the HS, therefore you cannot obey something that is not commanded you. Note in Rom 6:17,18 that the Romans OBEYED from the heart that FORM OF DOCTRINE, then they were freed from sin. That form of doctrine they obeyed that freed them from sin was water baptism. Note they OBEYED for water baptism is commanded so it can be obeyed, but baptism with the HS is not commanded so it cannot be obeyed. It freed them from sin, note that water baptism remits sins, Act 2:38 yet baptism with the HS cannot.

really, research of the words is best before someone assumes a command vs. a statment

 

[jmacvols]

How can you live your life according to the bible if you do not have the Holy Spirit in you to be your teacher to know what it is being said in the bible? For you have to have spiritual eyes to see and Spiritual ears to hear. In order for you to have these you have to be born again from the Spirit of God.

One does not have to have an direct indwelling of the HS to understand the bible. Paul in Eph 3:4 says 'when ye read, ye may understand'. Note Paul did NOT say 'when ye read ye may understand only with help from a direct indwelling of the HS.

 

[jmacvols]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2016:9-16:20&version=31
D. C. Parker, The Living Text of the Gospels (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997), p. 125; a twelfth century commentary on Matthew and Mark also ends at 16:8.

Six seventh-to-tenth-century Greek manuscripts contain this Shorter Ending, with minor variations, after 16:8. All six also contain the Longer Ending. Furthermore, linguistic and stylistic differences between the concluding canonical verses 9-20 (often called the "Longer Ending") and the rest of the Gospel have been regarded by some scholars as enough to doubt their authenticity.

A large majority of contemporary New Testament textual critics, see also Textual criticism, have concluded that neither the longer nor shorter endings were originally part of Mark's Gospel, though the evidence of the early church fathers above shows that the longer ending had become accepted tradition by some in the second century.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780

"So, in the minds of not a few scholars, if it were not for the internal evidence, the external evidence would be sufficient to establish the genuineness of the verses."

"The world's foremost textual critics have confirmed this conclusion. Sir Fredrick Kenyon, longtime director and principle librarian at the British Museum, whose scholarship and expertise to make pronouncements on textual criticisms was second to none stated, "Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established."


EDIT: I finally remembered his name, Dean Burgon:

http://www.purewords.org/kjb1611/html/mark16_9.htm

A noted scholar who extensively studied those two manuscripts you keep referring to that leave out Mk 16:9-12, Dean Burgon has concluded that are two of the most 'foulest' manuscripts in existence.

 

[Terral]

Hi Elsan:

Baptism: When should it be done?

Since there are many different kinds of Scriptural baptisms (from washing hands to the forgiveness of sins), then one must make many assumptions before beginning to address your question. There is only ‘one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) for the members of Christ’s ‘Body’ (Church #2 here) done by the Holy Spirit at the very moment we ‘hear’ (Rom. 10:17) and believe (Eph. 1:13-14) the Paul’s “Word of the Cross” (Gospel #2 here) gospel message. The differences between the three baptisms for the “Gospel of the Kingdom” and our ‘one baptism’ are explained here.

To whom?

That depends. :0) Peter, John and James baptized believers in the “Gospel of the Kingdom” IN WATER (like John the Baptist in Mark 1:4-5) for the ‘forgiveness of your sins’ (Acts 2:38), because repentance, confession of sins and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins are all vital doctrinal precepts for ‘that’ gospel message. Christ’s Great Commission Commands say that believers in the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 24:14, Acts 8:12) MUST be baptized in water (Mark 16:15-16), as Peter teaches “baptism now saves you” (1Peter 3:21) for the believers in ‘that’ gospel message. However, nobody has been saved by obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom” for almost 2000 years, so I will assume your “Two whom?” question is about our gospel for today. The “one Spirit” (1Cor. 12:13) baptizes every member of Christ’s BODY (that's us = 1Cor. 12:27, Col 1:24) directly into Christ Himself (Gal. 3:27), so that ‘we’ are ‘crucified with Christ’ (Gal. 2:20) to be raised with Christ (Col. 3:1-3) to be seated in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:6. Therefore, you do not have to worry about “To Whom” this ‘one baptism’ by the Holy Spirit is to be given. :0)

How (immersion, sprinkling, etc.)

Now you are talking about ‘water’ baptism having nothing to do with ‘our’ one baptism done by the Holy Spirit. There is no water baptism for the members of Christ’s BODY as this is a WORK done by human hands that will make “VOID” the power of the cross to save anyone (1Cor. 1:17)!! Paul's "my gospel" (#2) is "veiled to those who ARE PERISHING." Those distorting the "wisdom given him" (Paul) are doing so to "their own destruction." 2Peter 3:14-16. We are saved by God’s grace through FAITH apart from works (Eph 2:8-10) and justified by faith APART from works (Rom. 4:4-6) completely eliminating ‘water’ baptism from the equation. If you do not know the differences between the "Two Gospels" of the NT, then chances are you are mixing the doctrinal components of BOTH into a false gospel that God sent to NOBODY.

What does it signify?

Signify? :0) You have been listening to those blinded by the ‘deluding influence’ (2Thes. 2:11) into believing ‘what is false,’ without any knowledge of the differences between the Two Gospels and the Two Churches (Bride and Body) of the New Testament. Some people believe John’s Baptism for the ‘forgiveness of sins’ (Mark 1:4-5) is a mere sign of one’s faith, when THAT is God’s method of forgiving sins for Kingdom Disciples obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom.” Paul’s “one baptism” by the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with water at all. NOTHING.

Is it essential for salvation?

Are we talking about John’s Baptism for the Kingdom Disciples called to God via the Gospel of the Kingdom? If so, then ‘Yes.’ Mark 16:15-16. If you are talking about the Holy Spirit baptizing ‘us’ (Body of Christ members) into Christ Himself, then the answer is again “Yes.” The ‘one Spirit’ MUST baptize you into Christ, so God can ‘then’ choose you "IN HIM before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4), because of the relationship He has with His Only Begotten Son (diagram). Note that the universe (heavens, heaven and earth) share the blue sphere with Christ Jesus ‘and’ God also shares the yellow/golden sphere (beyond the realm of time and space) with His Son (Christ Jesus = F+S+HS) at the very same time. This diagram (pic) shows how you were baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit upon hearing and believing our gospel through the ‘one baptism’ done by the Holy Spirit that ‘is’ required for you to become a real member of the “Body of Christ.”

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral