Baptism

[Meshavrischika]

This is called "I can't provide a good refutation, so I'm going to change the subject and claim Scripture isn't reliable."

No, it's called I don't buy your use of scripture with crappy translations based from mostly your RCC that skew what was originally there and accept into cannon scripture that is not even proven to be REAL.

 

[Thekla]

Well good luck with water saving you from anything.

not just any water, though (the angel needed to stir the pool before the water would heal)

 

[MamaZ]

No, it was a prophecy of Joel that Christ fulfilled making it obsolete. Not a single vese in the bible promises you, me, nor anyone else this baptism.

If you do not have the Holy Spirit which is your seal then how can you be one of His?

 

[Melethiel]

No, it's called I don't buy your use of scripture with crappy translations based from mostly your RCC that skew what was originally there and accept into cannon scripture that is not even proven to be REAL.

Um...I'm not RC.

 

[jmacvols]

If you do not believe in Christ you are condemned.. Water baptism is a declaration of Yes I believe in Christ.. Water baptism is not the saving power. Christ is. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not oboslete for this is where we are Joined with Christ in the Spirit.

But in post #143 you said water baptism is for the remission of sins, now you are saying it some kind of "declaration". Are you changing you mind about it? Acts 2:38 says it is for the remission of sins.

 

[Melethiel]

What am I suppose to see? You state that water is the saving power. That it is water baptism that saves.. Then you say stawman? LOL.. It is believing in Christ that saves. Not water baptism.. You have to believe in Christ in order to be saved. Baptism is an act of obedience after one has already believed and become saved. It is Christ who saves the sinner.. There is no other Gate but Jesus.. Not even water baptism is the gate to Gods Kingdom.

We state that the water is useless unless the Holy Spirit works through it. If you'd bothered to read the excerpt I posted, it clearly states that.

 

[Thekla]

in the "old days" - obviously before God knew what he was doing, laying on of hands indicated a deep investment in someone... that their burden was yours and you would treat it as such. Fathers did this to their children, friends to each other, husbands to wives. This is not exclusive in any way for confirmation or transference of the Holy Spirit. It was not unusual, and is not telling about "confirmation" or any such thing.

I'm not sure what you're getting at ...
do you mean that the laying-on-of hands, like water baptism, was sort of a "quaint" thing ?

 

[Melethiel]

As stated before, YOU are welcome to practice anything you like, it's when you claim as a group to be the ultimate authority and the ONLY right that you bring on arguments.

I see, relativism now. So tell me, if someone from your church wanted to have their infant baptized, would you let them?

 

[MamaZ]

But in post #143 you said water baptism is for the remission of sins, now you are saying it some kind of "declaration". Are you changing you mind about it? Acts 2:38 says it is for the remission of sins.

Are you saying that you don't have to believe in Christ to be saved? That all you have to do is be baptized?

 

[jmacvols]

Water will not wash your sin away... The blood of Jesus washes your sin away. For the remission of sin is as it states. We repent..We turn and believe in Christ.. Then we are baptized.. Water is not the saving power.. Christ and His Shed blood is the saving power..
Many of man have thought they have repented and been baptized. But if one has not fully believed in Christ no matter how many times a person gets baptized will not save them. It will only get them wet.

I never said water washes away sins. I did say water baptism is where one is buried in Christ's death [Rom 6:3,4] where His blood that washes away sins was shed.

 

[Thekla]

so standing in the rain works better? lol. I can use the REST of scripture can I not?

I'm not sure what you mean here, either. Could you explain ?

 

[JamesThaddeusMartin]

no, it's called questioning rather than being a lemming.

A lemming for Christ...I accept that!




pax

 

[MamaZ]

We state that the water is useless unless the Holy Spirit works through it. If you'd bothered to read the excerpt I posted, it clearly states that.

So now you believe that the Holy Spirit works through the water? There were many that had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water.
Act 10:39 "We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
Act 10:42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Act 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Act 10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Act 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Act 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Act 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay

 

[Meshavrischika]

Mk 16:16 shows that belief and baptism are necessary before one can be saved.
To be fair, can I say anything you post here on CF is open to interpretation? So you cannot accuse anyone of misunderstanding you, misquoting you or putting words in your mouth? Fair enough?

I don't see why everyone can't just agree to disagree instead of "we're right" and "you're wrong". It's assenine. Again, the only reason I argue is because people refuse to allow others to stand in faith rather than walk under their version of law. Personally, I think NOTHING is essential but Christ. Period. I'm happy if you have meaning and cling to ceremony, but that doesn't make it right, not right for everyone, not right for anyone but the person who holds it dear. It's this attitude I hate, not people.

 

[Meshavrischika]

A lemming for Christ...I accept that!




pax

no, a lemming for any type of churchianity

 

[JamesThaddeusMartin]

We state that the water is useless unless the Holy Spirit works through it. If you'd bothered to read the excerpt I posted, it clearly states that.

I read it...worth reposting



Christ being baptized is our example and we imitate Him....He didn't do these things for Himself you know.



pax

 

[jmacvols]

We see also that many already had the Holy Spirit and that after this baptism they were baptized in water..

Baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs only twice in the NT, with the Jewish Apostles in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10. This fulfilled Joel's prophecy when he said the Spirit of God would be poured out upon "all flesh". At Joel's time "all flesh" was made up of Jew and non-Jew--one was either a Jew or Gentile. So Christ baptized the apostles (Jews) and Cornelius (Gentile) so "all flesh", Jew and Gentile, was baptized with the HS and thus making Joel's prophecy fulfilled making baptism with the HS obsolete.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I see, relativism now. So tell me, if someone from your church wanted to have their infant baptized, would you let them?

sure. why not. that's between them and God, not me and God.

 

[Melethiel]

no, a lemming for any type of churchianity

"churchianity"? Now, that's quite insulting, I have to say. You claim that you're only defending your right to believe whatever you want, but yet you so often resort to insults...nuts, lemmings, and now, this I consider the worst.

 

[jmacvols]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jn 3:5 is water baptism, hence water baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom.

Water in Jn 3:5 means just that; water.

Jn 3:5------Spirit+++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>kingdom
1Cor12:13--Spirit+++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>body

Note that kingdom and body are equal, they are both a saved position. Since there is but one way to be saved, no alternatives, then both of these verses MUST say the same thing, hence it takes Spirit + water baptism to put one in the kingdom/body (saved).