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The fifth commandment (yes, fifth) does not tell us to elevate our parents above God. Context...it’s important.God is on the parents' side.
Honor they father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the earth.
The Hebrew text doesn't number the commandments. Only various traditions say where one starts and another ends. And different traditions do it differently.The fifth commandment (yes, fifth) does not tell us to elevate our parents above God. Context...it’s important.
I'm just saying that a teenager ought not to disobey his parents.
Aaaaaaabsolutely. I wonder if the response would be the same if we were discussing a Muslim deciding to follow Jesus....or a Protestant kid wanting to convert to Catholicism. Probably not.If it's a question of disobeying God, then a teenager should disobey his parents.
You keep saying that as if it is the case. It is not.If it's a question of disobeying God, then a teenager should disobey his parents.
Let’s throw everything out of the Bible that’s not the fifth (yes, fifth) commandment and the criminal on the cross for a moment so we can assume you’re right. Now please show us where the fifth commandment has an expiration date. It doesn’t say “Honor your father and mother...until you reach the age of __.”You keep saying that as if it is the case. It is not.
It is not a sin for a child to remain unbaptized if it is against his parents wishes. Such a child is covered by the baptism of desire. Was the theif on the cross sinning by dying in an unbaptized state? How about someone preparing for baptism who got nabbed by the Romans and thrown to the lions? You are being entirely unreasonable as well as being completely out of touch with the history of baptism in the Christian church.
I want answers to my questions. I want you to actually respond to my points instead of repeating platitudes that make no sense.
May I ask a personal question? Do you have a dog in this race? Did you as a teen disobey your parents and get baptized behind their backs? I'm just wondering the amount of *emotional* investment you have in this.
I have to tell you that for me it was the opposite. I wanted to get baptized, and my Christian parents fudged on it (they were of the opinion that it didn't matter) and then they moved to a Quaker church which taught that you shouldn't get water baptized. So I was denied baptism. I didn't sneak out. It messed with my head. But I didn't disobey my parents. So I guess you could say I have a dog in the race
Interesting that I'm still the one giving the rational arguments.
Such a child is covered by the baptism of desire.
May I ask a personal question?
It's there. I referenced it for you, but you have yet to respond to the example I have given you a number of times. You just blow past it, again and again as if it doesn't matter.I cannot find the doctrine of "baptism of desire" in my Bible.
This is not true, except in the case of reproductive rights (because of the liberal bias). I know from personal experience that a 17 year old can't even get so much as a splinter removed at an ER without parental consent.I also note that, in the US, the concept of "mature minors" allows older teenagers to receive medical care without parental consent.
I know from personal experience that a 17 year old can't even get so much as a splinter removed at an ER without parental consent.
My friend Jake's parents do not want him to be baptized and it's literally killing him. He always complaing about it to me. I don't know why, but they are absolutely opposed to it and my friend is starting to grow impatient. Jake met a Pentecostal pastor who said he would baptize him. I don't think he told the pastor his parents don't want him to be baptized though. He told me it wouldn't be disobeying his parents because it is for his spiritual well being and he is just doing what his parents have failed to do, something about their spiritual responsibility? I guess I see where Jakeis coming from with that one, as his parents would never let him get baptized, probably until he's 18. But what i am concerned about is would the baptism be valid if his parents don't know?
As a bonus, he plans on joining the Catholics after he is baptized. Would they accept it as a true or valid baptism? If they would accept it as valid he would have to take classes where he learns about the Catholic faith though and Jake's parents would shut that down too lol.
Some churches are not taking the requirement of baptism so literally. He should talk to a priest and see whether he can take communion. The point of requiring baptism is that it does not make sense for a non Christian to take communion, and traditionally baptism defined being Christian. But he’s clearly Christian.
baptisms are considered valid by Catholics or mainline Protestants.
Honestly, I'm not concerned with what a church may consider valid or not, but what God considers valid or not. The churches have a history of trying to usurp the power of God unto their own vices and deny the truth to the masses. The validity of baptism is only determined by God and by extension Church of Jesus Christ, not the church down on the corner.
don't get a Pentecostal to baptize you because a church that denies the doctrine of the Trinity
If you want to be Catholic,
Pentecostal or Protestant? Don't believe I said anything about Pentecostal and it's only one division of Pentecostal that seem to reject the Trinity. I guess you consider me Protestant and I embrace the Trinity and believe it to have existed in the OT and has always been a character of God (Deut 6:4 "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad..."). I would also not hesitate to baptize someone who wished to profess Jesus as Lord and Savior. I invite anyone to show me scripture that prevents someone other than clergy and specific denominations to baptize. In fact, when the majority of Apostles were baptizing the nations, they were baptizing Jews, not Catholics or even gentiles. History indicates that it may have been up to 10 years before the gentiles were even invited into the synagogues to accept Jesus. Again, baptism is a symbolic cleansing event that existed in Jewish culture back to the Exodus and was done, not by a priest, but by and individual. Jews cleansed themselves in the baths outside the temple before entering. Now, to enter the Church, we must received a ritual cleaning but once to accept Jesus into our hearts, but this can be done by any believer.
This concept implies the joining of a church and not a joining of the Church. It is legalism imposed by the church, but not by scripture.
All of that said, I agree with ubicaritas that being a catechumen and undertaking a time of intentional preparation is probably a good option, for now.
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